Laser Whinging Thread

Originally posted by JimC Maybe the mods here have better things to do than go shuffling posts around for people who lack the manners and common courtesy not to wibble nonsense over a thread that concerns an important subject. It seems that their own egos are more important to them than other people...

Edited by Slippery Jim - 01 Apr 11 at 12:21am

Originally posted by craiggo GRF your right, but was it really necessary to turn the thread into such a bunfight? I think the situation with ILCA is pretty important news in the sailing community as most of us have sailed one at some point or another. While I dont really have a desire to sail one competitively again, there is clearly a huge number of Laser sailors out there who are passionate about their boats, and James comments were getting a little OTT. He only needed to tell us once that he didnt like Lasers, rather than responding to just about everyone elses posts with a comment about why the Laser is such a bad boat. James is a friend but sometimes he goes too far as I believe he did in this case. .

Edited by rich96 - 01 Apr 11 at 7:55am

Originally posted by rich96 Originally posted by craiggo GRF your right, but was it really necessary to turn the thread into such a bunfight? I think the situation with ILCA is pretty important news in the sailing community as most of us have sailed one at some point or another. While I dont really have a desire to sail one competitively again, there is clearly a huge number of Laser sailors out there who are passionate about their boats, and James comments were getting a little OTT. He only needed to tell us once that he didnt like Lasers, rather than responding to just about everyone elses posts with a comment about why the Laser is such a bad boat. James is a friend but sometimes he goes too far as I believe he did in this case. .   Correct - there are lots of us who do not need to be told about the pros and (apparently mostly)cons of the Laser.   (Or for that matter to be advised that our own opinions are 'pathetic' and to have our intelligence questioned). - we all have wives  to that !   Its significant that you never get these boringly negative comments from any sailing 'superstars'. Most of these guys recognise that each and every class is good in its own way (or are sensibly sailing rather than talking about it).

One post and one post only to clarify a few things. Sorry it's a bit long, but I'd rather say this once, so I don't need come back to further discuss it...

1) the actual contents on the other thread have been deleted, therefore history has an unfortunate way of re-writing itself, hence a need to come back to try to set out my own version of events. It's why moderation, or at least heavy handed moderation, is bad for conversation imho. You have not been given the opportunity to analyse for yourself, instead you have to rely on this, and any counter posts that ensue to judge for yourself.

If, as has been suggested, posts talking about what the Laser means to us, all of us, past owners included, parents or parents-to-be of potential owners ditto; when the very future of the Laser is in question are 'way off topic', then I cannot see why they couldn't have been moved rather than deleted. But then I'm not reliant on advertising revenues to make a living, therefore maybe I have more interest in seeing natural discussion flow, rather than moderated discussion stutter.

However, this isn't the reason for asking Mark to delete my username and posts, he runs a lean ship and I respect his decision, especially in the current climate. I will keep my final reason for departing to my own counsel; however suffice to say, "if it's got that low, then no thanks" ... see you guys on Facebook/SA or ideally on the water or in the bar after sailing.

Based on the fact that you are now unable to review the contents and make your own mind up to form an opinion on what went on, let me try to set the record straight from my point of view...

2) I don't give flying f**k what anyone sails... board, kite, dinghy, foiler, yacht, cat, tri, weta... it's all good. I hope they can receive the same level of enjoyment from the sport as I have over the past 30 years. I look forward to impartial and vested advice on boat selection and have used both to weigh up options in the past. This forum has been very good at providing both and let's be honest, a few 'dissenters in the ranks' when it comes to the Laser is good for a balanced viewpoint and is highly unlikely to impact on sales of new Lasers- whichever builder you happen to end up with for your Single Manufacturer One Design.

However, I do have a concern that the standard Laser is placed on a pedestal of excellence by nearly every sailing establishment going- IOC, ISAF, RYA right down to local club sail committees and club stalwart types who perpetuate, in my view, a false air of superiority for class racing in inferior technology with questionable ergonomics, over choosing appropriate boats for individual and family needs.

Originally posted by Chris249 Simply ignoring a post allows that post to gain credence, so when the post includes allegations about the intelligence and honesty of people who sail a class, ignoring it may not always be a good option.

Quite true, although any assault on your intelligence is merely incorrect interpretation based on you assuming that I think someone is "unitelligent' for paying over the odds for something... I drive a Skoda Fabia, well actually I paid a lot more for it so it has an Audi badge on it. That doesn't make me 'thick', it just means I value a specific brand and corporate policy differently to a real Fabia driver. As for integrity, I will deal with that separately later. However, I think you'd agree that the natural conclusion to our differing points of view on the debate had been reached prior to the mass-cull. We both after all, deleted post content when the natural status quo of enough of this was reached.

However, as we are now requested to engage again through this pathetic thread, if there ever was a myth that was allowed such credence, it is that the Laser is still a "great boat"- lest it not be forgotten, it started life as simply strung beach toy retailing at a very modest level. What the Laser is today is very different, it's is a corporate manipulation of an extremely successful social experiment, an anathema on the rest of the market which operates as transparently and freely as you could expect for a niche. There is no other way to justify the pricing of the parts and consumables against the bill of materials. Who do you think will pay the legal fees if the two manufacturers slug it out in a litigious sh*t fight? That's right, Laser sailors will, with their grossly inflated costs on sails, spars, new hulls, carbon low profile tillers and Laser-stamped XD kit blocks.   But I do agree, most of you on here know what you're signing up for, therefore that's your choice and in genuine sincerity, happy sailing if that's what floats your boat. If you're a parent of a Laser sailor reading this, nagging you for a new sail, or a newer boat or latest hikers; then you have my sympathy, but please open their eyes to other opportunities this wonderful sport can present before it's too late.


I would like no more than to see due consideration to other boat buying options other than the indomitable Laser for kids and newbies- even then I bet the Laser would still get more than a 'fair share' of this market. However at the moment it is NOT a level playing field for other manufacturers and owner-owned classes.

(@ Chris249- the thread has been cut, therefore I was unable to explain that imo, your passion for the Laser is proof enough that there is a "natural" market for it. Added to which you make a point about ex-champs racing them- again another natural "market". We both know the foibles of the Laser as a boat, I have owned three myself. However we choose differently whether we are prepared to put up with them... our difference of opinion is no more, no less, than that and any "vitriol" I apparently have for the Laser is ONLY directed at its thirst for new blood, not the boat itself, nor the myriad of corporate and establishment structures and programmes that manipulate it in the market.)

3) All of this is 'loading of the market' is disingenuous and imo serves other more covert purposes, not necessarily in the interests of maximising the pure pleasure of sailing for individuals. I am not the only one who would describe the Laser as a 'painbox'. I would never describe any other "toy" as that. The hidden agenda imo, include but are not limited to: perpetuating residual value for new boat buyers, exploitative margins on consumables for the rights holder and associated manufacturers, funnelling talent for squad development (with little consequence to grass-root clubs who loose their youth members when they fall off the wagon expectations in tatters, dinghy sailing of little further interest) and creating an unfair playing field under a facade of equipment equality.

(I don't particularly "like" the Phantom- but I fully accept that it is a popular dinghy, suitable for a good few people and I fully respect most of the Phantom members who would always recommend test sailing and getting to know the boat and people before parting your cash and your time in one... it's a responsible class, and it's grown up and relevant to today's sailing market- it's done it naturally, virally and through nothing more than meeting a genuine market need with good collaboration between customers and suppliers.)

IMHO the Laser is only popular because it is popular... acid test: would it sell so well if it were launched today? It's fuelled by conservatism, nepotism and a sphere of influence that most weekend sailors will have little day-to-day interest in. If there ever was the right boat at the right time it was the Laser- and it was great in its heydey- it meant you could race a simple beach boat with the minimum of maintenance- no annual varnishing, no GCE O Level in Woodwork required that was then the "norm" with dinghy ownership. But things have moved on, as they should- technology is progress- progress is what got your ancestors from knuckle dragging and gathering berries to the person you are today, an intelligent and articulate individual, blessed with the ability to form your own opinion, whilst understanding others may differ. ;-)


4) I have been accused of being narrow minded... POT KETTLE BLACK. This thread 'back fired" exactly as intended, it has just highlighted the endemic conservatism that exists in dinghy sailing. How many of you have written down that you wouldn't own one again or wouldn't sail one out of choice? Seriously ask yourself Laser or Nothing... yep that's right, a good proportion of you are saying "MTB", "windsurfing", "gardening", "more family time" etc. Yet you are quite happy to idly sit by and watch newbies enter the sport in one, some of you even recommending them as some kind of "right of passage" as we've all been there too... should we teach newbie car drivers to double-declutch as well? Nostalgia- it's great in context, I even have a Goonies T-Shirt somewhere, but pray tell me folks... why if they aren't good enough for you, you are quite happy to see the newest and most influenced members of the sailing community shell out for them? I'm not talking about the died in the wool Laser sailor who's been winning the club series year in, year out- he's been around long enough to make his choice and we're quite right with the majority view- live and let live... a natural market.

But I'm talking about that 15 year old who's progressing out of a Feva or an Optimist and whilst they're good, they're not "that" good to be swept up into this zone squad or that Laser racing team... would they be better served being offered something a little sexier than an uncompetitive 5 year old Laser with a new sail every season and setting some false expectations that they're going to follow in Ben Ainslie's footsteps.... really, how anyone expects a boat designed in the 70's to compete with facebook, MSN, booze, sex, coursework, Glee club and tuition fees shows a total lack of empathy with the future generation. Dinghy sailing really isn't cool, it never will be, but seriously we need to at least make it slightly more competitive on the 'cool wall' than it currently is... fortunately some people are trying and all they seem to get is knock back after knock back, again negativity fuelling the inertia to get things off the ground...






Or how about the newbie adult who's fallen off an RYA training course... they've got a limited amount of cash to invest in a "first boat", but do we really think that bunging them in a £500 Laser sh*tter with it's piecemeal and costly upgrades is going to encourage them to long term participation? I doubt it, they'd be much better off being swept under the wing of double hander class like Draycote's Fireball fleet do so well; or alternatively if they want a boat of their own now, welcome them into the fold of the handicap fleet with a locally adjusted PY on a boat that really suits them and is capable of delivering progress week in, week out. These people need to be nurtured into the whole 'lifestyle' associated with sailing, not left to struggle at the back with only a Rooster sail for Christmas as their last ditch hope of improvement. Maybe if they really enjoy it and come back season after season, then they'll hook their family and friends in too. A bit like the way golf and cycling has risen in popularity in recent years. To keep the "myth" of equitable racing, cheaper costs of ownership and 'easy sailing' is sycophantic to say the least guys. If this makes you think I'm questioning your integrity, it's only because I have enough respect for you that you are intelligent enough to challenge 'the norm' that's 'filtered down' from the top brass at ISAF, through regional associations right into the heart of the endemic culture of the dinghy park that "advises" kids, parents and newbies which direction they really should go... Laser- you can buy one for £1500 and become the next Olympic Champion... who are you kidding... do we want more Chrissy R's to laugh at?

Just step back and think about it... if you'd just come into sailing and had a bought a sh*tty old uncompetitive Laser, would you be satisfied?

Well why do "we" still recommend them then?

Finally a couple of personal notes:

@Rich96 - a big apology, I in no way meant to question your intelligence, my comments back to you were directly related to the "conspiracy theory" comment. They were meant to be taken with a big pinch of salt and banter and in the usual internet hyperbole style which enabled you to compare a bit of "Lasers are sh*te" on the Y&Y forum with Lady Diana's death, the Illuminati and the Roswell Incident... I knew you were not a Laser sailor, therefore any interpretation from Chris249 or yourself that I am questioning either yours or any Laser sailor's intelligence is misguided, however I accept the nuance was poorly passed across and the opportunity to correct in context is no longer available so please accept this apology herewith.

@Chris249 - no hard feelings chap, happy sailing but please accept that some of us have had different ownership experiences than you with the Laser. My friendship network of "sailors" (which was international) is greatly reduced, many of whom say they don't sail dinghies anymore as they don't want to sail Lasers or other 'boring boats'. They, like I, were bought up believing class racing is good, class racing in one designs was even better and handicap racing is fundamentally sh*te. I genuinely believe I am very lucky to have made the jump from that viewpoint and I am still sailing as a result, able to pick and choose my boat selection based on other circumstances in my life. They are not sailing anymore and they really are not bothered- disfranchised from the whole thing, no matter how many vanilla stroke photos I paste to my Facebook wall of RS100s, my Musto Skiff or the latterly the Rogue Skiff, they only say "looks cool, but I'm done with it mate, the Laser and all that went with it killed the passion".

I hope the sailing community can learn from this experience, there seems a real glut of folk in my age group... ageing populations in leisure actvities is the death knell... look at windsurfing. However I also hope it can still providing the types of racing in boats that fellow sailors, like yourself, find interesting and challenging. As I have said, I believe the Laser has a natural market, a natural market it could better serve without the props it gets afforded by the 'establishment thinking'.

@JimC - my apologies if you think my opinions are reflective of an over-inflated ego. However you have not met me, nor had the chance to judge me for yourself in person. I think if that ever were to happen, you would find I am actually quite unassuming about my sailing knowledge, in fact, several people have commented that I seem to know more than I let on or give myself credit for.... hardly egotistical in the slightest. I don't buy that, having been around dinghy sailing for 30 years you can't help but pick up opinion based on broad experience, not narrow-mindedness as you seem to insistent on attributing toward me. You certainly have some fairly hardened opinion from your own experiences and like myself, are quite willing to acknowledge when those opinions can change through further discovery. Perhaps you could tone down the digs now, I do not intend to engage any further on this forum, however feel free to contact me through other media if you so wish, I find a lot of what you say extremely interesting and refreshing.

Best regards,

Jimbo

Edited by rogue - 01 Apr 11 at 1:00pm

Blimey Jimbo...

Edited by Rupert - 01 Apr 11 at 12:16pm