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    Posted: 30 Mar 11 at 11:58am
Originally posted by radixon

Originally posted by ASok

This thread is back-firing Tongue


Definately.

I had a laser for 6 years, learnt to sail on it, upgraded it, raced it on the circuit for 2 year, sold it to get a "more exciting" boat that had more ropes and sail area!

I think it is an easy boat to rig from trailer to water, offers a competitive racing opportunity for different ages/weight range of sailors but the only drawback being the cost of parts/sails for a boat that has sold over 200k. I recall been offered a brand new sail for less than £100 so i know deals can be done.


You know, I think this is the 'crux' of the matter, it's not that the Laser isn't a versatile, decent little boat, it's the inconsistent pricing of spares, sails and other accessories and the worrying lack of continuity between builders and suppliers supposedly 'controlled' within the ILCA framework that causes issues.  If they really wanted to get to grips with this, then the license issue should lead to an agreed code and milimetre-tight standards for the boats, spars, foils and sails which would then lead to less of the well-known "Aussie hulls are lighter in the ends than US ones" or "this bottom section is stiffer than that one" type stuff which haunts the class now, and has done for some time (before the Olympics got involved if memory serves me right)
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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The funny thing about the claims of inconsistency is the way the tales change.  Some time ago, there was a rush of claims that "the Aussie foils are better" - but when people came out here for the worlds a few years ago, many of them  complained about those very same foils.  So some people manage to complain that certain foils are better, and some complain that the same foils are worse.  My former arch-rival, a three time world Masters champ, was the former technical manager. If anyone had "special" gear I'd assume it was him, yet when I borrowed a bit of his gear it seemed just like every other bit I'd seen.  So some of us can be excused for not believing that the claims of gear variance can be quantified.

Certainly many of us who sail Lasers are quite aware of the fact that like any boat, it has issues. However, a lot of the other claims are just complete b**locks.  

The idea that we are all brainwashed into sailing Lasers (as some claim) is silly, considering the number of people who have been outstanding in high-performance boats who enjoy sailing Lasers. To imply that people who have won worlds in major high-performance classes are dolts because they sail Lasers, as some do, seems rather bizarrely arrogant.  Yeah, the sails do cost a bit more than they could - but a 100% competitive sail is still quite cheap, and the profits have to be fat enough to allow manufacturers to build 120 or so boats each year for the worlds - that cash overhang has to be financed somehow.

In summary, the complaints seem to come from those outside the class and from people who  assume that they know more about Lasers and sailing in general than those in the Laser class.  

I admit to being probably the worst when it comes to snapping back at those who criticise the Laser.  It's the arrogance of most of those remarks (which assume that Laser sailors know nothing about the economics of sailing, or about tactics or the thrills of fast boats) that winds me up.  A lot of Laser sailors have sailed a huge variety of other craft with a lot of success - they sail Lasers because they offer them a huge amount of fun.  







Edited by Chris 249 - 30 Mar 11 at 12:22pm
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I can think of one possible remedy to the manufacturing problems: ISO 9000; but they'd all have to agree to that... Stern Smile
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Posts: 586 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Slippery Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 11 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

The funny thing about the claims of inconsistency is the way the tales change.  Some time ago, there was a rush of claims that "the Aussie foils are better" - but when people came out here for the worlds a few years ago, many of them  complained about those very same foils.  So some people manage to complain that certain foils are better, and some complain that the same foils are worse.  My former arch-rival, a three time world Masters champ, was the former technical manager. If anyone had "special" gear I'd assume it was him, yet when I borrowed a bit of his gear it seemed just like every other bit I'd seen.  So some of us can be excused for not believing that the claims of gear variance can be quantified.

Certainly many of us who sail Lasers are quite aware of the fact that like any boat, it has issues. However, a lot of the other claims are just complete b**locks.  

The idea that we are all brainwashed into sailing Lasers (as some claim) is silly, considering the number of people who have been outstanding in high-performance boats who enjoy sailing Lasers. To imply that people who have won worlds in major high-performance classes are dolts because they sail Lasers, as some do, seems rather bizarrely arrogant.  Yeah, the sails do cost a bit more than they could - but a 100% competitive sail is still quite cheap, and the profits have to be fat enough to allow manufacturers to build 120 or so boats each year for the worlds - that cash overhang has to be financed somehow.

In summary, the complaints seem to come from those outside the class and from people who  assume that they know more about Lasers and sailing in general than those in the Laser class.  

I admit to being probably the worst when it comes to snapping back at those who criticise the Laser.  It's the arrogance of most of those remarks (which assume that Laser sailors know nothing about the economics of sailing, or about tactics or the thrills of fast boats) that winds me up.  A lot of Laser sailors have sailed a huge variety of other craft with a lot of success - they sail Lasers because they offer them a huge amount of fun.  





 
Firstly,  wrong thread, sport! Wink
 
Secondly, you sail lasers because people you know sail them too. There is no coincidence in this game. Birds of a feather... Ex. World,. Nats, junior champs, big names in Oz and presumably elsewhere etc.,  IMO sail lasers 'cos they're less complicated and a bit of a laugh really.  Of course, some people take them too seriously, but you'll always find that kind of wombat on any continent. Then there's the camaraderie. etc etc etc.
 
Thirdly, I'm surprised you'd rise to the bait. Being an Oz, I'd have thought you'd have a tougher skin than a mere Pom like myself. This posting is also a pisstakeo. So, keep your shirt on and if it's too hot here, get out of this predominantly Pommy kitchen, and back to your own sandpit!
 
Yep, and we enjoy not being enlightened. Wink
 
 
 
Pass the skiff, man!
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Originally posted by JimC

I may dislike sailing the things myself (well maybe apart from in waves/surf)but grief the narrow viewpoints **** me off...
 
Well said Jim, I've scarcely read such a load of tripe and hot air as has hijacked the other thread.  I've given up reading it now, which is a shame as the original topic is very important.
 
Mike
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Well now thjis thread has certainly back-fired.
 
At the moment I sail a Laser (I also have an 8.1 rig as I am a little on the large side for a std rig laser on the lake I sail on).
 
Why do I sail a Laser?
 
Quite easy, I know that I can not sail for a few weeks (maybe months) and then know I can dig the boat out and be at around 90-95% or my poetntial in it even after not sailing. I have been to other classes (Blaze, Fireball, Scorpion to name but a few) and whilst they were rewarding (and in a lot of ways a nicer boat to sail than the Laser) you needed to have a lot of time in them. If you did not do this then you lost much more and the boat quickly became frustrating and the sailing not enjoyable.
 
When I have more time to devote to my sailing I will probably switch class but I can see myself owning/sailing a Laser for quite some time.
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You have to forgive Aussies, they're simple souls, they still sail the Original Windsurfer down there, clinging on to the past, they never really get progress and when they do they screw it up totally..

Now I must be one of the few on these boards that didn't come here as a result of sailing a laser, in fact I can quite categorically state, if that was all there was I'd stick to Raceboards.

As to differences in One Designs and our Southern Hemispherical cheating b**tards, I have no end of anecdotal evidence of tampering that just wouldn't be considered here in blighty, but then we all know the reason they went there in the first place to inbreed.

I know of tuned battens, holes drilled down the centre of centreboards, carbon tube rods inserted, a whole host of other minor infractions, and that comes from my time of supplying Olympic One Design Equipment to Championships, I shall name no names I'd hate to be accused of libel, but I can prove it if called upon so to do.

So it does go on and I refuse to believe it is peculia to one class, I do know however never to have caught Brits at it, that doesn't mean they don't, it just means I never caught anyone.

Now back to the Laser and this storm in a teacup which probably doesn't really have anything to do with us none laser folk other than mild entertainment at their expense, the reason y'all are saddled with it is simply because of the market style and the retarded business model that drives it.

 Even if a wonder product did surface, it would face such resistance from the RYA, the Clubs, the Coaches the institutional nature of the sport, it couldn't hope to prevail, it's the way of the sport that needs to change before you ever see what you'd really like and frankly I can't see that ever happening until a few more duffers shuffle off this mortal coil.

I can't even see why the subject should be so emotive, there are a lot of hacked off folk after whatever it was that went on in that Laser thread that I missed, it is just a bloody beach toy after all, it's not and was never intended to be much more than that. A single person entry to sailing, at the time I first came across it, it was £690 and the Windsurfer was 475, I chose the windsurfer and went on to be the fine rounded and upstanding character that i have become today and I genuinely feel sorry for the folk who chose the other path.. I feel even more sorry for folk who as parents might have to pay what they're asking nowadays, seriously a Windsurfer can still be produced with two margins for under £1000 and there will be carbon and hi tech stuff.
They must have the volume, I know the sail can be built sub $50 and thats landed duty paid, just how much does a couple of bits of not exactly Eastons finest and some plastic pellets cost to form these days out East.
So, if you buy one new, imv you are being ripped off no question, but there are a lot second hand so from that regard it must remain an easy choice to point newbies at, at least they can get one quick, pretty much there and then, which is more than can be said for most other dinghies so from that point of view it's a good thing.
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Posts: 521 		Post Options Post Options   Quote haroosh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 11 at 2:06pm
Hey Grumpf,
Just spotted your footnote. Are you flogging your 100?
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Posts: 72 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 11 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

... there are a lot of hacked off folk after whatever it was that went on in that Laser thread...
 
you sure got that right, and it ain't the laser sailors
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Originally posted by haroosh

Hey Grumpf,
Just spotted your footnote. Are you flogging your 100?

Yes I think I might be if there are any buyers about, not expecting a quick sale..

If I can't sail it in the conditions we had Sunday with the big sail and it seems my build isn't right for it, then I've no desire to hang around perpetually at the back of the fleet with that 8.4 and endure a crap PY as well as being beaten by even the slowest Laser sailor with the least experience. Even my generosity of spirit couldn't endure that humiliation for too long.
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