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Class Rules in Club Races.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Class Rules in Club Races.
    Posted: 17 May 10 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Late starter

We assume no performance advantage is being gained.

Difficult to think of a bigger performance advantage than a new sail... The guy who buys two replica sails a year is going to be at a considerable advantage over the one who buys one real sail a year. That's the trouble with cost savings arguments: they get enormously complicated!

BTW Gordon is of course exactly right: the entry of "not quite a Laser" shouldn't be refused, but adjusting the handicap should be seriously considered.

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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 10 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Late starter

We assume no performance advantage is being gained.

Difficult to think of a bigger performance advantage than a new sail... The guy who buys two replica sails a year is going to be at a considerable advantage over the one who buys one real sail a year. That's the trouble with cost savings arguments: they get enormously complicated!

I agree, its complicated. But at our club the guys who buy replica sails tend to be sailing 30 year old back of the boatpark Lasers. They are never going to win anything. But a £150 new sail gets them on the water again, hence why we allow it. For what its worth the replica Laser sails I've seen have been dreadful, I'd likely have a different view if they were better than the original.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 10 at 8:21pm

Do any clubs have a formal method of checking the boats before allowing them to race or is all down to helm honesty?  some of the rules apply to non obvious items such as weight.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 10 at 8:39pm

There are plenty of mods that can be made to boats other than the "wrong" sail, where people have just altered a boat to make it how they like it, even if class rules say otherwise. Some of these mods might be faster, others, slower, but what the owner wants.

There was a Comet Zero who rigged his assy spinny on a roller furler and kept his bowsprit out all the time, just rolling the sail Open 60 style. Not fast, but of course he should be allowed to race, despite being out of class. Never got enough data to work out if a new handicap was needed, and with only one boat, crew skill was always going to be the biggest factor. That would be the same with almost any mod.

Shouldn't PY reflect boat speed? Saying to people they get a worse PY because of a non standard sail is just a penalty, not a decision based on data, or even a gut feeling.

Sailing a 2 handed boat singlehanded is also often outside class rules, too. Happens a lot in handicap races. How do clubs deal with that?

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Posts: 809 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Moo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 10 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by Rupert


Sailing a 2 handed boat singlehanded is also often outside class rules, too. Happens a lot in handicap races. How do clubs deal with that?



In handicap races we add 5% to corrected time. In pursuit races we put back start time by 5%.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 12:16am

Case 98 deals expressly with this issue as follows (Thanks to LTW Pillowcase of the Week #18):

Question 4

Buttercup, a J/24, raced in the handicapped class. Did the J/24 Class Rules or the handicap system rules apply to her?

Answer 4

The rules of the handicap system applied to  Buttercup (see paragraph (d) in the definition Rule). If her handicap was explicitly based on the assumption that she race in compliance with some, or all, of the J/24 class rules, then those J/24 class rules, or all the J/24 class rules, applied to her.

However, if Buttercup’s handicap was not based on such an assumption, then none of the J/24 class rules applied to her.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 8:48am

It's pretty clear what we all think "should" happen, I was trying to find out what actually happens.What's the reality on Sundays at your club?

So how does your club ensure that boats are class legal, is there a formal measuring for all boats or would that in your opinion cause too much friction/hassle? ......How should it be sorted?
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 9:39am

Originally posted by gordon

Jeffers,

For class racing you are 100% correct.

However, PY handicap racing allows for boats to be modified, and any change which could alter the potential speed of the boat should be dealt with by changing the handicap. PY is very flexible. You could factor in boats that decide to race without a spinnaker, modify handicap for older boats, penalise boats that do not use SMOD class sails. PY is an inclusive system, allowing ALL boats to compete

Gordon

In practice we have found the difference between and new replica Laser sail and a new official Laser sail to be neglegible. The only difference is cost and longevity. Were the system being abused then it would be my role as fleet captain to bring the matter before the sailing committee and appropriate action would be taken.

As it is we have tweaked some of the PYs at Hunts to suit the water and it works pretty well. We now have a good mix of boats regularly vying for club prizes and it has revitalised the club racing.

Originally posted by GK.LaserII

It's pretty clear what we all think "should" happen, I was trying to find out what actually happens.What's the reality on Sundays at your club?

So how does your club ensure that boats are class legal, is there a formal measuring for all boats or would that in your opinion cause too much friction/hassle? ......How should it be sorted?

With regards to this we have nothing official at Hunts and it is left down to the sailor to ensure their boat complies. I do as fleet captain keep an eye on the rules and if I see something that is not right on a boat I do mention it to the sailor and advise how they can achieve the same thing but staying within the class rules.

The only issue we have seen is club members turning up to the club open and using a replica sail. This has been let go in previous years but I will be ensuring that everyone knows they must use a legal sail this year.
Paul
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 10:30am
If the club open is a class event then the eligibilty requirement should probably include compliance with class rules and possibly membership of class rules. This should be sorted when the club accepts entries - see rule 75.1

The Club or race committee have every right to reject an entry (before the start of the first race) under rule 76.1 It is probably better to do this than to let the boat sail and get involved with an inevitably messy protest under rule 78 "Compliance with class rules

Gordon
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 11:27am

Gordon,

I agree completely. This is why I am going to ensure that all the local fleet members are aware of this.

Paul
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