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Class Rules in Club Races.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Class Rules in Club Races.
    Posted: 18 May 10 at 12:50pm
It might be worth trying to bulk order Laser sales - if you order quite a few they may give a discount.

Gordon
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

it is not the custom or practice in handicapping to penalise those who purchase new sails.

That depends... Not at the moment in dinghies, but in earlier days when folk were less affluent it was by no means unusual for classes to have restrictions on the number of sails that could be purchased, nor is it that unusual in keelboat classes...

I've come across mention in the old days of local one design classes where at an agreed interval the class ordered up a batch of identical sails from a sailmaker and every boat had a new set, allocated randomly. You weren't allowed any other new sails until the next batch. Quite impractical with mass market and nationally distributed classes and all the rest of it, but surely as good a way of keeping expenditure on sails down as has ever been devised...

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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 12:00pm
"Do any clubs have a formal method of checking the boats before allowing them to race or is all down to helm honesty?"

I've been sailing for 25 years, belonged to half a dozen different clubs and I've never come across measurement or scrutineering at club level events.

At club level the order of the day should be to get people racing, not to make it harder or more expensive for them to race. The single most important thing a club can do is to get more people racing. At open & championship level, compliance to class rules is a must.

"The guy who buys two replica sails a year is going to be at a considerable advantage over the one who buys one real sail a year."

They are both "real sails" and it is not the custom or practice in handicapping to penalise those who purchase new sails. If there is good reason to believe a new replica sail is faster than a new class-compliant sail, by all means reflect it in the handicap. However I don't think anyone believes that is actually the case.

"Buttercup, a J/24, raced in the handicapped class. Did the J/24 Class Rules or the handicap system rules apply to her?"

This is a very common situation in yacht racing e.g. an OD racing in an IRC handicap class and these days it is normal for such a boat to have its own individual IRC rating rather than sharing an OD class rating. Only in the latter case would class-rules compliance be required. Thus you will commonly see a number of OD boats within a class having slightly different handicaps e.g. reflecting different age allowances, measured sail sizes or hull weights.




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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 11:27am

Gordon,

I agree completely. This is why I am going to ensure that all the local fleet members are aware of this.

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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 10:30am
If the club open is a class event then the eligibilty requirement should probably include compliance with class rules and possibly membership of class rules. This should be sorted when the club accepts entries - see rule 75.1

The Club or race committee have every right to reject an entry (before the start of the first race) under rule 76.1 It is probably better to do this than to let the boat sail and get involved with an inevitably messy protest under rule 78 "Compliance with class rules

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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 9:39am

Originally posted by gordon

Jeffers,

For class racing you are 100% correct.

However, PY handicap racing allows for boats to be modified, and any change which could alter the potential speed of the boat should be dealt with by changing the handicap. PY is very flexible. You could factor in boats that decide to race without a spinnaker, modify handicap for older boats, penalise boats that do not use SMOD class sails. PY is an inclusive system, allowing ALL boats to compete

Gordon

In practice we have found the difference between and new replica Laser sail and a new official Laser sail to be neglegible. The only difference is cost and longevity. Were the system being abused then it would be my role as fleet captain to bring the matter before the sailing committee and appropriate action would be taken.

As it is we have tweaked some of the PYs at Hunts to suit the water and it works pretty well. We now have a good mix of boats regularly vying for club prizes and it has revitalised the club racing.

Originally posted by GK.LaserII

It's pretty clear what we all think "should" happen, I was trying to find out what actually happens.What's the reality on Sundays at your club?

So how does your club ensure that boats are class legal, is there a formal measuring for all boats or would that in your opinion cause too much friction/hassle? ......How should it be sorted?

With regards to this we have nothing official at Hunts and it is left down to the sailor to ensure their boat complies. I do as fleet captain keep an eye on the rules and if I see something that is not right on a boat I do mention it to the sailor and advise how they can achieve the same thing but staying within the class rules.

The only issue we have seen is club members turning up to the club open and using a replica sail. This has been let go in previous years but I will be ensuring that everyone knows they must use a legal sail this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 8:48am

It's pretty clear what we all think "should" happen, I was trying to find out what actually happens.What's the reality on Sundays at your club?

So how does your club ensure that boats are class legal, is there a formal measuring for all boats or would that in your opinion cause too much friction/hassle? ......How should it be sorted?
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 May 10 at 12:16am

Case 98 deals expressly with this issue as follows (Thanks to LTW Pillowcase of the Week #18):

Question 4

Buttercup, a J/24, raced in the handicapped class. Did the J/24 Class Rules or the handicap system rules apply to her?

Answer 4

The rules of the handicap system applied to  Buttercup (see paragraph (d) in the definition Rule). If her handicap was explicitly based on the assumption that she race in compliance with some, or all, of the J/24 class rules, then those J/24 class rules, or all the J/24 class rules, applied to her.

However, if Buttercup’s handicap was not based on such an assumption, then none of the J/24 class rules applied to her.
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Posts: 809 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Moo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 10 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by Rupert


Sailing a 2 handed boat singlehanded is also often outside class rules, too. Happens a lot in handicap races. How do clubs deal with that?



In handicap races we add 5% to corrected time. In pursuit races we put back start time by 5%.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 May 10 at 8:39pm

There are plenty of mods that can be made to boats other than the "wrong" sail, where people have just altered a boat to make it how they like it, even if class rules say otherwise. Some of these mods might be faster, others, slower, but what the owner wants.

There was a Comet Zero who rigged his assy spinny on a roller furler and kept his bowsprit out all the time, just rolling the sail Open 60 style. Not fast, but of course he should be allowed to race, despite being out of class. Never got enough data to work out if a new handicap was needed, and with only one boat, crew skill was always going to be the biggest factor. That would be the same with almost any mod.

Shouldn't PY reflect boat speed? Saying to people they get a worse PY because of a non standard sail is just a penalty, not a decision based on data, or even a gut feeling.

Sailing a 2 handed boat singlehanded is also often outside class rules, too. Happens a lot in handicap races. How do clubs deal with that?

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