Cirrus Icon Development

The comparison to a kiteless 59er is a valid one I think, and a good way of describing the concept.  Personally I believe it is the large kite as much as the poor marketing that did for it (and perhaps the whole rig needs an overly active, experienced sailing style).  The hull looks very nice though. I have actually thought about using the 59er hull as a the base for a boat like this in the past.  However, the Flight hull is much more suitable. There are numerous designs which show that 14ft is plenty big enough for a boat.

Most NS14s are sailed with a crew weight of about 130kg, but that is because that is all the small sails need, not because the hull can not take more weight.  There are perhaps some NS designs that can't (I dunno), but I can assure you that the Flight hull takes me (90kg+) and my wife with no problems. Having previously owned a RS200 I can confirm that it takes our weight - and weight distribution - much better than that did.

Anyway, I'd invite you all down to have a look at it at the Dinghy Show, and if the idea of a modern two sail boat appeals, give it a try!

Originally posted by Norbert Originally posted by Slippery Jim But a 59er without a kite is like an RS800 without a kite... Just don´t go there... It´s like having ripe cherries without er... plucking them (if you know the old rhyme ) 59er with a kite was such an overwhelming success tho wasn't it. A 59er without a kite might not be such a great package to you, but for all the inland lakes and rivers it just might be perfect. Centreboard, high weight carrying, powerful sails, flexitop mast. I'd buy it.

 

Hmmm...

RS800

Twin wire

Racks

Rigg / righting moment ratio optimized for mid / high windspeeds

Hull optimized for mid / high windspeeds

Asym. Kite

 

59er

No wires

No racks

Rigg /righting moment ratio optimized for low / mid windspeeds

Hull targeted at whole wind range, roll tacking etc.

Asym. Kite

The RS800 suffers on small sailing waters due to hull shape and the drawbacks of both crew trapezing from racks, that would not change by taking the kite away.

The 59er kite (being huge compared to the righting moment) requires some space to benefit from it but what other design parameters would be a disadvantage inland if you would take the kite away? Let's say you replace the self-tacking jib by a jib with some kind of pole.

I am not saying that the 59ers necessarily should go that way!

Instead I am just wondering if the base concept of the 59er hull maybe more appropriate than a base concept where principal dimensions are fixed on old classrules.

The latter approach kind of neglects effects like people becoming taller in general.

Being taller than 1,8 m is already quite common for males. I believe you need more than 14 foot for a balanced design that covers this trend without requiring kids as crew.

Or the other way round: There are already too many designs out there that target 130 kg and do not take 150 kg well. Not sure there is much value in adding another one.

 

Originally posted by boatshed I think the RS 200 has just about got it right.   It attracts class swoppers from almost all of the sitting out classes and can be sailed with parent child, hubby wife, girlfriend/boyfriend etc.   And it has a very easy, tiddly, asymmetric kite which is fun and  much, much easier than any symmetric kite ( Lark, Scorpion, GP etc).   It can also be sailed on the open waters and puddles.  But we all know that they very rarely sail on the apparent wind, so, a well sailed Lark will beat an RS 200 straight downwind in the lighter stuff.  But most club courses with mixed racing rarely have dead runs, so, this isn't a problem and of course in RS class racing the lack of apparent wind ability  doesn't matter.  The RS 200 was very, very carefully thought out and may prove to be the most successful RS class.

The RS200 was designed as a TUB (Trade Union Boat-one man, one sail).

Pretend assymetric tacked on as a last minute marketing panic. They have to ban goosewinging to keep the image.

Its success is about the quality of the  racing rather than the quality of the boat. Strict OD, critical mass and the right marketing. It delivers great OD racing, to a good spectrum of people.

And I guess, at the time there was a bit of a gap with the 400 perceived as being biased towards heavier people.

Just a shame that Quality Control issues are spoiling the party for some.

Originally posted by boatshed I've followed this thread.  Having raced a N12, Lark, Taser and now a B14 I would say that trying to introduce a new double handed, two sail class will be failure. You will have to attract N12/Tasar/Enterprise/Firefly owners who already have good class racing.   Yes, the Icon may have a slightly better hull/rig/weight but it'll not be enough. There was a new one design Merlin Rocket recently.   I can't remember its name.  How is that class doing ?  I would guess, not too good. I think the RS 200 has just about got it right.   It attracts class swoppers from almost all of the sitting out classes and can be sailed with parent child, hubby wife, girlfriend/boyfriend etc.   And it has a very easy, tiddly, asymmetric kite which is fun and  much, much easier than any symmetric kite ( Lark, Scorpion, GP etc).   It can also be sailed on the open waters and puddles.  But we all know that they very rarely sail on the apparent wind, so, a well sailed Lark will beat an RS 200 straight downwind in the lighter stuff.  But most club courses with mixed racing rarely have dead runs, so, this isn't a problem and of course in RS class racing the lack of apparent wind ability  doesn't matter.  The RS 200 was very, very carefully thought out and may prove to be the most successful RS class.   I think the 59er is about as good a compromise as its gets but the take up has been minimal or near on zero.   The complex and expensive over rotating wing mast of the Tasar was dumped on the 59er in favour of a big asymmetric which gave a massive performance boost.  It sails on the apparent wind, planes upwind and has an easy kite system.  If the 59er failed, then there is a lesson to be understood.   And I don't believe its all about a marketing failure but I do accept the marketing of the 59er in Europe was crap. If the Icon was fitted with an asymmetric, how would it differ from the 59er ?

Agreed about the 59er marketing. But what can you do when you have a Northern Rep. who also sells 505s and Ovingtons who also don't want to canibalise an existing class the B14, which thy also produce? Rock and hard place, but still a great boat.

Edited by Slippery Jim

The Tasar should have succeeded - in the 70's - but in the 70's it was mishandled by the builder in Europe and misunderstood generally.  It was and is brilliant in the right conditions as those of us who have raced them know.  If it blew 20kn everyday here and we always sailed on open waters there would have been little to challenge it in either handling or performance in its category.  Note ... that it evolved and was developed out of the NS's of the day. 

The NSs continued to develop in the inteveening 35 years and while they are even more potent in a blow they are now very effective indeed in lighter conditions - in much the same way as N12s have developed and perform here - do not bet against a modern N12 offwind in light conditions on PN btw ! .  Icon is a simple concept - we are taking the now relatively stable NS hull form, with its broader wind capability (and it can carry weight better as well ) and optimising and enlarging the rig  for the market and sailing waters we find here (and elsewhere) with larger crews and highly variable wind conditions. 

Unlike the 'big' dinghy builders we have to be very very sure that the product is right and I do not mean just for the UK.  As with Blaze we will seek to work with others overseas to build hulls and address other markets.  Our hunch is that many people really will now want to try the boat out of sheer curiosity at first given the NS background and reputation and as with our other projects enough will put their 'hard earned' behind it to move things forward.   There will not be too much hype or advertising from Cirrus but we will try hard to get you to try it.  If you prefer something else afterwards well fine but it will get you thinking for sure ... 

Many years ago when I raced boards the first camber induced sails could only be used for racing under  the then rules if they were significantly smaller than the 'soft' sails then standard.   Despite their size they were a  shock to all who tried them at first -  The Icon concept is not as revolutionary in any one respect but it does pull together a number of developments that have quietly been proven and refined elsewhere over a very long time.  Together these features, lightness and refinement makes the overall package very distinctive - there was no point in another 'me-too' boat.  We really do hope you like it - so get in touch and try it after the Dinghy Show.

Mike L.