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Performance Factors

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redback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Performance Factors
    Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 6:18pm
What is the relative importance to performance of length, weight, sail area, gennaker, trapeze, twin trapeze?
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Iain C View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 6:39pm

How long is a piece of string?

Varies enormously with wind and waves and point of sail.  Example:

Cherub v 49er z 14 v 12' Skiff Weymouth, light wind.  49er/14 disappear (waterline length) Cherub same speed as 12 upwind (less drag from rig as non-wiring conditions, better pointing, hull shape and ability to keep crew forward better for light conditions), 12 dissapears from Cherub downwind (sail area and angles) but still not as fast as 14/49er round the course.

Cherub v 49er Weston Skiff event, medium breeze, solent shop.  9er much faster upwind and through tacks (Cherub stops dead!), however Cherub nearly as fast sometimes faster downwind in the gusts.  LWL irrelevant as very little of Cherub in the water.

12' skiff v 14 yesterday, Draycote, windy. 14 much faster uphill (more rag and more LWL than 12) until wind pipes up a notch, 14 overpowered,12 sails out from underneath (*puts tin hat on and waits for the forum fun to start!*).  Downwind 12 is faster due to angles and kite area and weight.

Just too many variables I think!



Edited by Iain C
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Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 6:53pm

We're teasing somthing out of this though.  I'm sure we'd all agree length is an advantage in sub planning conditions and naturally hull shape.  My recent experience is between 800s, 4000s and a 400.  The 800 has the length but very little rocker and so once the wind drops to very low the 800 stops, the 4000 can creep up to them but the 400 sails right past.

So in a force 2 I'd say the PY for a 400 is about 950, a 4000 about 980 and a 800 about 1100!  Force 3 and its 400 - 950, 4000 - 950 and 800 - 900.

Having sailed a Cherub many years ago I'd say in force 3 its dire but about to get interesting.

Any thoughts out there?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Merlinboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 7:32pm
Ian is right the 12 was faster down hill although we were sailing lower angles would like to have a good race against yopu though mate!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 07 at 12:15am
Edited;

Just about every skiff designer says that length is vital for all-round
speed. As well as effecting displacement speed, it alters your options for
bow angles, rocker lines, and sections, and greater length makes
handling easier.

Doesn't the 14 v 12 example show that length is the most important
factor? After all, the 12 has much better ratios of length, weight and
wetted surface to sail area, is much lighter, has more sail, has the huge
advantage of having variable rigs designed to perform in a narrower
range, etc etc.

In planing conditions downwind, length isn't much of a factor. I wonder
whether a 12 or Cherub may actually be benefiting from the short, wide
shape which presents a highly efficient high-aspect (ie wide beam/short
length) planing surface when they are fully powered on the plane - sort of
like a Formula Windsurfer board which uses the same effect.

Righting arm (ie crew weight and distance from centreline) may be the
next most important as without it you can't carry a big rig.

Weight may be over-rated in some ways - some Skiffs are actually very
heavy in terms of sailing weight, because they have very big crew weights
for their length. However, since this is traded off for huge leverage, you
can carry a big rig so you can go fast despite the weight.

In terms of weight-for-length, the International Canoe rules (17' LOA, one
person) but slow boats like the Laser 4.7 rate surprisingly well.

When you plot fast boats, they have a huge range of weight-for-length
and actual length, but all of them have good righting moment. Then
again, to confuse matters the Righting Moment isn't always used and
merely adding a trap and slightly bigger rig may not be a huge
improvement...which goes against the above. Ah well, it's all so
complicated, as Iain C says.


Edited by Chris 249
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 07 at 2:37am

If I put it in my simple terms, straight line performance is about drag versus power.  However, as the ad says, power is nothing without control.  If you want to perform, then surely the foiling moths show that what is important is low drag in a controllable package (without the auto-wand on the Moth the controllable bit isn't there and you don't go very far).

So, if you colour the picture on all the things listed above with the ability to maintain control, then you get a pretty good picture of each.

Length - reduces drag at displacement speeds and improves controllability at higher speeds.

Weight - need to differentiate here between moveable ballast and fixed ballast - lighter fixed weight is generally faster but too light and the lack of momentum starts to hurt.  More moveable ballast is generally better and the more it can be moved the better (in general) - but then you get back to the limits of control.

Righting Moment - more is generally better but there are limits as you still have to control the beast (18' skiffs on Waterloo Bay versus Sydney Harbour is the classic example - smooth wind in Waterloo bay made control easier so the boats got wider and faster).

Sail Area - more is better up to the limit of control / power etc etc

etc etc.

 

 

One step forwards, 2 steps back...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote charlie1019 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 07 at 7:52am

Would have been interesting to have had a bit of a race with the 12 on sunday to see how the different advatages would have worked out over the course. From our perspective (in the 14) we certainly pointed higher up wind at a similar boat speed until the wind piped up - then needed more rake!

The bit I thought was the most interesting was how high you were sailing down wind even with the bigger kite. We just could not wind the 14 up that high without the apparent wind pushing us way off to leward? An example of a more efficient kite shape?? I don't know.

The thing that makes the biggest difference to our speed is our T foil - let it off up wind and the boat feels like its stopped! Pull it on down wind and again you can really feel the boat lower it nose and accelerate, or alternativly, as we were doing sunday afternoon leave it off for the more impressive ride (or lazyness - afterall we weren't racing). 

If we were racing a windward leward somewhere small, I'd certainly favour the chute option over the bags... plus easier when swimming 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 07 at 8:46am
With huge rigs, big righting moent and all the rest of it length isn't as big a deal as it used to be - from 95% down to maybe 85% of performance... But the thing that people tend to miss is that you have to add huge amounts of rag and righting moment to make up for really quite small differences in length. If you add 10% extra length it makes quite a difference, but 10% extra rag is damn all...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 07 at 9:17am
One thing that also needs to be taken into account is foils, with the current trend towards foils that produce lift or increase/decrease drag it's possible to compensate lift for the traditional speed ingredients (like length of hull) by moving to an ultra low weight hull with minimal aerodynamic profile (so it cuts the air efficiently rather than hydro-dynamic as it's not in the water that much anymore) - if you're 'flying' on your foils, you also don't need a huge sail, rather an efficient 'wing' that works to keep the flow moving over a huge rag that produces tons of power you don't now need - foiling moth is a prime example but I notice there's now foiling multihulls, foiling skiffs.... how long before someone re-hashes a boat like a B14 or 49er with lifting foils to produce a much faster dinghy?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Iain C Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 07 at 9:27am

Hmmm, I actually thought we (12) was sailing lower than the 14 downwind but I'll stand corrected.  You were certainly outpointing us uphill!

Thinking about it we were probably sailing artificially high to try and get the reach down into Toft Bay and also give us a few options if a big gust came in.  We were on the knots with the main well out for a lot of it, there was the anchored committee boat that seemed to be in the way most of the time too (as a 20 foot boat would be on 700 acres...) 

I think if we had been VMGing it then we would have poked it a bit lower and also sailed a bit flatter.  Don't suppose you had a GPS on board did you? Be interesting to compare tracks...

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