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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 10 Oct 12 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by Peaky

... it is a brave person who decides it is worth losing one in the hand in the hope that there are two in the bush.

or absolutely asinine if you look at windsurfing as a case study.  In the desire to look cooler, design tricker and pretend to be more Maui than Maidenhead, they've lost nearly all the racing windsurfers and recreational windsurfing is at an all time low.  

The kit got monumentally more difficult to use as the wave-only ethos built, in turn where is the industry now?  Pricing itself out of the market with cheap imports that break apart easily, simply because it doesn't have sustainable models for a quality product with the volume that's left.  

Graeme knows this, and would probably be the first to accept the dichotomy on his entire argument offline in the pub... after all, it's the EPS and the Blaze that have actually ticked his boxes on the water, not the RS100, MPS or the V-Twin.


Edited by pondmonkey - 10 Oct 12 at 5:10pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 12 at 5:02pm
I do agree with Graeme that class association members interests are not always (often?) the best interests of the boat product. Builders get caught between appeasing existing customers and attracting new ones. And whilst for everyone there are far more potential customers than existing ones it is a brave person who decides it is worth losing one in the hand in the hope that there are two in the bush.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 12 at 4:57pm
Thanks Chris,

I totally take the point that a good product is more than just a list of good technical features - it needs to offer the whole package, and the features need to lead to benefits.

Despite the fact that the design is, in my not very humble opinion, 'better' I do not yet have the wider aspects in place to make it a better offering to the mainstream consumer than the alternatives.

Too many small builders seem to think that carbon, for example, is a benefit. It isn't. It is merely a feature. The benefit might be that the lighter, more easily driven hull will stagger less in gusts and so send you swimming less, thereby tickling your ego and making you feel good, but even that isn't the case if real weight savings aren't achieved.

I have no desire to offer geeky products - my ambition (laugh away) is to enter the dinghy market with a handul of complimentary mainstream designs that are 'better' not by virtue of being faster but by being more responsive to user input, more reliable, less hassle, better value, more practical, etc.

Re the hull lines. The forward sections are fuller and more rounded than a Bethwaite hull, so maybe a little Woofish, but obviously the Cobra is not as fast and powered up as a 12. The idea is not so much about being able to (tight) reach with the kite, but more about not feeling bullied by the kite. I have some basic theoretical (unvalidated) polars comparing the 100 and Cobra, I'll see if I can dig them out tonight.
      
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 12 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

The Biggest con ever carried out was the suggestion that everyone buying the same dinghy was somehow a good thing and the use of the term 'Class' to utilise the quirky British adherence to its own 'Class' system with it's snob appeal.

If ever the perpetuation of inferior products was an art form, it is characterised by the dinghy world.



But alas it was no con, quite the contrary... if you study the history of the classes which have proved popular, many were developed within a rule set to enable competitive sailing from home builds or Fred in the Shed for a bit of beer money.  Sailing's big boom period in the 50's-70's was a revolution against the elitism of the yachting establishment... it's very foundations were around rule limited classes and equal competition (terrible word for the 21st century, but this is sailing nomenclature after all)   The lipsticks just extend this ethos with a bit of commercialisation and convenience now the skill set for building in wood was essentially removed from the curriculum.  Maggie's boys ensured we were service-sector cannon fodder rather than actually having any skills or dirty hands, so now we have to buy our boats rather than build them... hence the drop in numbers when you value judge disposable income verses disposable time.


Edited by pondmonkey - 10 Oct 12 at 4:21pm
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 12 at 4:05pm
The Biggest con ever carried out was the suggestion that everyone buying the same dinghy was somehow a good thing and the use of the term 'Class' to utilise the quirky British adherence to its own 'Class' system with it's snob appeal.

If ever the perpetuation of inferior products was an art form, it is characterised by the dinghy world.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 12 at 3:56pm
Lovely design, Peaky.

One query - if the ability to carry a kite on a reach is important (as some say) have you looked at using a 12 Foot Skiff style sectional shape? It may not fit with the wings and you may already be close (hard to see without sections and I understand you don't want to publish them) but they do seem to have an amazing ability to hold in on tight reaches despite having the biggest kite (compared to the boat) of all dinghies. Of course, they also have a fair bit of RM.
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 12 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by Ruscoe

 

Nick Craig was right (i hope he doesn't mind me quoting him) following on from last years nationals a great boat will always sell.  

Rodney said something similar Russy, and much as hope you're right, I'm not naive enough to think that a good product will always sell.  I have a pair of snowboard crash pads that are frankly the mutts nutts... but they don't have the name R.E.D (Burton) on them, so they're far from popular.  

It's certainly not the case in my industry that the best will always sell, where quite often inferior products can claim the premium due to sophisticated marketing and partnerships.  Nor with other technologies either and on reflection, some would even argue that a better product technically, isn't always a better product for the consumer...


But no sh*t fight - agreed.  I hope there's space for both the 100 and D1 to flourish and change the landscape of club sailing for the better.

It's an interesting link; he writes about Stan Liebowitz, who has spent many years destroying the "Qwerty is an inferior keyboard kept in place by market forces like lock in and path dependence" and "Beta was technically superior but lost out due to market forces like lock in and path dependence" myths.

I've been reading Liebowitz's "The economics of qwerty", which is a very strong attack on the idea that inferior technology can grab a stranglehold in the market due to lock in and path dependency. It's interesting to read from a sailing viewpoint, because it's quite often said that inferior boats sell well just because of path dependent related factors like strong initial marketing etc (although the same companies also have many flops despite that supposedly enormous advantage).   Liebowitz' work seems to indicate that path dependence is pretty much a myth (or at least rare) and that popular products are normally popular because they are good products, in many if not all respects.

As PM says, a boat that may be inferior in some respects can still be clearly superior as a "whole product" - and of course (as in examples Liebowitz uses) even that supposed inferiority may simply be a myth when viewed objectively.
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 7:49pm
I'll be the judge of what is the better product, D1 or RS100 and I'll find that out this weekend with any luck and enough liquid bribery Wink

It still wont make one product any more suitable to my diminished height and faculties or the crap beach I have to deal with.


Edited by G.R.F. - 09 Oct 12 at 7:49pm
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

 

Nick Craig was right (i hope he doesn't mind me quoting him) following on from last years nationals a great boat will always sell.  

Rodney said something similar Russy, and much as hope you're right, I'm not naive enough to think that a good product will always sell.  I have a pair of snowboard crash pads that are frankly the mutts nutts... but they don't have the name R.E.D (Burton) on them, so they're far from popular.  

It's certainly not the case in my industry that the best will always sell, where quite often inferior products can claim the premium due to sophisticated marketing and partnerships.  Nor with other technologies either and on reflection, some would even argue that a better product technically, isn't always a better product for the consumer...


But no sh*t fight - agreed.  I hope there's space for both the 100 and D1 to flourish and change the landscape of club sailing for the better.


Edited by pondmonkey - 09 Oct 12 at 7:41pm
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Posts: 1514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ruscoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Oct 12 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Originally posted by L123456

Originally posted by ifoxwell


I agree but I do fear that Pondmonkey is right, and the 100 now has the single handed kite market sewn up.
 
 
I'm not so sure, after the initial excitement it has all died down a bit, many of the 100 fanboys on this forum have already sold up and moved on ...
 
The nationals numbers are not growing http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/class/RS100/attendance
 
The class had such huge hype before it was even in production perhaps the reality hasn't lived up to the hype ...

Meanwhile the D1 seems to be ticking along ok ...
I don't call 14 boats at a Nationals ticking along nicely.
 
Yes the numbers of 100s travelling is poor (I am one who does not travel) and this is a factor a lot of other classes are experiencing. The cost of fuel, people being careful with their money, people looking at windguru on a Friday and not travelling all influence attendance.
 
To improve on the 100 the Cobra will have to be cheaper, faster to windward, good on a close reach (anything too tight to carry a kite on the 100) and still match the looks of the 100. Plus it will probably have to be backed to the same level as RS would with any new boat.

Lets not start this sh*t flinging contest again.

Other wise we will have to compare European attendances, where the roles are very much reversed.  One thing i will say is check out the historic figures for the Musto vs. 700...

Tim is right in everything he says, we are quite happy ticking along as we are.  Sure more boat sales would be more then Welcome, but the D-one growth has always been an organic one.  What has become apparent is that people are quick to criticise without even trying one!  Why not come along to the Forumitee regatta, you are all more then Welcome!  

Nick Craig was right (i hope he doesn't mind me quoting him) following on from last years nationals a great boat will always sell.  He's right and is definitely a welcome addition to the class and now the euro is playing ball hopefully so will a few more.

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