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National 12? |
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thedodger 
Newbie 
Joined: 06 Dec 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
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 Topic: National 12?Posted: 06 Dec 08 at 1:35pm |
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I agree with David, there is no ruling clique. Like any amateur organisation, the class is led by a great bunch of people who can be bothered to give the time and effort. While I have had little time available to attend open meetings, indeed I have my views on the number held, I have enjoyed and felt part of the ones I have participated. We have, however, developed a growing fleet of 12's at Spinnaker in Ringwood and enjoy sailing together. Judging by the enthusiasm at Spinnaker, especially with the younger menbers, there is no problem with the 12 as a class. We are very focused as a club at developing two handed sailing and the 12 is a good value, enjoyable sail. Weight is an issue, but as one of the heavier crews we have plenty of fun and performance from our Final Chapter. I know after five or so years in a 12 and the past forty or so sailing anything from Class One (IRC) to a windsurfer there is only one way to get to the front, that is time on the water. So don't knock the 12 or indeed any class just because your not winning, ,buy one, sail it as often and then more, that's the way to get the results. |
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Guest
Newbie
Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 04 Dec 08 at 8:38pm |
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Hi Jon, The NTOA is clearly acting as directed by the members which if great, just seems that the members are perhaps just a bit too foucsed on their current needs rather than the need of the class to survive another 60 years. It's great that there are people like Gavin & Jo who are prepared to put their ideas to the sword and build boats to implement their ideas. Unfortunatly there are few people with the knowledge and time to do such things. I still think a drive behind wooden boats like Dare's has some merit if the rules are to remain static. Edited by Guest#260 |
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david wilkins
Newbie
Joined: 27 Sep 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
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Posted: 04 Dec 08 at 8:33pm |
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The criticism of the committee is from without the Class and for it to be referred to as the ruling clique is completely unfair. Those within the Class will know that there is anything but a clique and that new members to the committee always welcome.
I completely agree that there is a niche into which the Twelve fits very nicely and cannot understand how a change in sail plan is likely to significantly improve on what is already one of the most rewarding boats to sail. It might make it go a little faster but is that really necessary? The boats are great already! Of course if the owners want to move that way they can through the normal democratic voting process. Go on Doug - you won't be disappointed! |
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David Wilkins
MR3613 |
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Jon Meadowcroft
Groupie 
Joined: 26 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 64 |
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Posted: 04 Dec 08 at 8:06pm |
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What an interesting thread of messages.
As one of the possibly criticised members of the N12 Committee the Class members have to date not viewed actions which "might make things better" as in the interests of the Class. It is an Owners' Association and as all Owners' Association its object is to do things for the existing owners. This is clearly a conflict and others are welcome to come into the space with their own class if they want. Others do have different views and as a result they choose to sail elsewhere. This is not unhealthy. It is pleasing that people retain an interest in the Class after they leave and it is always possible that things may change which encourage people back. N12 sailing is low cost sailing. People want boats to have a long competitive life and as the rule has matured so this has continued. As a result boats provide an excellent return on investment. A 10 year old Winder Feeling Foolish will have cost say £8000 new with all the trimmings (i should dig out the invoice it may well have been much less) and will sell second hand for £3k and will be able to win Championship races. A sailplan change has been discussed and is not popular. It is viewed as giving a step change in performance in exchange for a cheque. As Gavin Willis with the Paradigm 2, and quite possibly Jo Richards with his new boat may show too, there is plenty of life left in these rules. What is so intriguing is that Gavin's boat is too carry weight (and it does) and Jo is focussed on a light weight crew. What is stopping you Doug.H? |
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Jack Sparrow
Really should get out more 
Joined: 08 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2965 |
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Posted: 04 Dec 08 at 11:56am |
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I'm not suggesting anything RADICAL. It may seem radical to the current N12 committee but it isn't radical stuff to measure your sails in a way that provides the correct area, there bye allowing more restricted development of the rig.
As for radical changes to boats improving popularity. You can't exclude Moth's so that's 1. I would say that the UK Cherubs have significantly improved in popularity since 2005. What you have to be careful of as a Development class in recent years in the UK, is that you don't create a market for a SMOD manufacture which he then forces you out off. RS200 has effectively done that to the N12 and the 29er effectively did that to the Cherub. If forces the development boats to move to the ends of the scale that are unprofitable for business. If you stay in the same space you have to provide a far superior sailing experience both physically and phycologically. Edited by Jack Sparrow |
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 04 Dec 08 at 11:20am |
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With the (possible) exception of the Moth getting airborne, has a radical change to a class ever made it more popular? Even the Moth class, when compared to how it was when it looked more like a Europe, is tiny. Mind you, I've no idea how the 14 fared when it amalgamated and went skifflike. Did that help?
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Jack Sparrow
Really should get out more
Joined: 08 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2965 |
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Posted: 04 Dec 08 at 10:11am |
Those two statements seem a bit contradictory to me. And show the sort of stick in the mud attitude that's got the class to where it is. ( I'm not having a pop at you, just pointing it out ). The first suggests there are a lot of people that have strong feelings about how to make the class more popular again and are suggesting ideas. This suggests there are plenty of people out there that would like to sail a N12 if it were different from its current rule set. The second says, we are happy as we are thanks. I've invested in my boat and I don't want anything to radical to change, even if the class gets smaller. Get over this hurdle and things might get better. Edited by Jack Sparrow |
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Jack Sparrow
Really should get out more
Joined: 08 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2965 |
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Posted: 04 Dec 08 at 9:59am |
Shame it wasn't more family friendly some 10 years ago. And this points to one of the problems. From my perspective ( and I was involved with the class for a long time ) the class only really reacts when something effects the organising clique. Currently they are starting to have babies so the penny has dropped. As for Advertising. It isn't a panacea. N12's are boats for, on the whole sailors with experience. These sailors already know about the boat. It no longer holds a position in the market for providing a lightweight learners boat, others do that these days. The more experienced sailor would and will sail the N12 if it provides what they are looking for. Obviously it dosen't provide that as well as it did against other boats. I'm sure the N12 will always be around but there are less people that want to sail them as they currently are. |
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The Moo
Really should get out more
Joined: 01 Jun 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 809 |
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Posted: 04 Dec 08 at 8:33am |
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It's not all gloom and doom. The new Jo Richards which looks the dog's....... and Paradigm 2 designs show that there is interest in development and that there is room for new ideas within the existing rules.
Burton Week has been revamped to make it more family friendly in 2009. There is also a growing interest in the Class amongst Under 21's and they are organising their own travellers event which is creating a lot of interest See: - http://www.national12.org/blahdocs/blah.shtml Clearly there is a lot of passion for the Class and its well being both inside and out as shown by this thread which has run to 6 pages. Its a niche boat that will survive. The glory days of massive turnouts at Burton Week are long gone and no wholesale rewrite of the rules will ever bring them back. Hopefully the new designs will prove worthy, people will want to trade up and some much needed cheaper DB boats will filter down onto the second hand market. It's easy to talk ourselves into a recession and similarly its easy to talk a class into oblivion. As for the N12 I think there are definitely encouraging signs for the future so let's stay positive  Edited by The Moo |
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timeintheboat
Really should get out more
Joined: 01 Feb 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 615 |
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Posted: 03 Dec 08 at 10:34pm |
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Edited by timeintheboat |
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Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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