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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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    Posted: 26 Mar 06 at 5:52pm

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

The staff seem to be getting used as "scape-goats" when they would have been doing everything that they could to help the girl with the means they had. In my eyes, the structure of the company is to blame for the incident.

If by "the structure" you mean "the management", then I think that is the truth but not the whole truth.

If, as has been suggested by m_liddell, trapezing to leeward was common and allowed, then as qualified professional instructors, the instructors at the centre should have stopped it. It seems quite possible that trapezing to leeward was the direct cause of this girl's death, although none of us know for certain what happened.

The fact that the staff on hand did everything to rescue the girl after the capsize does not make them blameless, if they could have prevented it in the first place.
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49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
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Posts: 1991 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 06 at 5:41pm
Originally posted by m_liddell

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

We know that if a crew member is trapped below the boat, we won't be able to right it before the trapped member becomes unconcious and know how to deal with it. Maybe establishments that use high performance boats should consider the same areas as we have.

Interestingly the RYA article http://www.rya.org.uk/NewsAndEvents/newsroom/news/lefkadaacc ident.htm says:

"The conditions of RYA Recognition for Training Centres have now been revised to ensure that instructors are aware of the dangers, and masthead floats are now used where necessary to prevent inversion. Safety boat crews are now trained to right an inverted boat immediately, rather than try to disentangle the crew."

With some boats though, its impossible to right them immediately. Boats with fully battened sails especially carry a lot of weight when submerged with water and I'd tend to say that with higher performance boats, the times involved with righting them could prove fatal to someone trapped under the water. If my crew is trapped underneath my boat, my instant reaction would be to go straight for the knife because I'd rate his chances of survival higher. The mast floats are a step in the right direction though.

 
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
Helensburgh S.C
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Posts: 1991 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 06 at 5:35pm
The more I think about this, the more it annoys me. I'm most annoyed that a girl has lost her life and secondly I feel sorry for the staff involved with this incident. The staff seem to be getting used as "scape-goats" when they would have been doing everything that they could to help the girl with the means they had. In my eyes, the structure of the company is to blame for the incident. I have worked at schools which have had a fleet of cats for hire and tution. To instruct and cover the cats, as an instructor we had to hold a multi-hull endorsements. When customers asked to hire a cat, we demanded that they had taken part in one of our multi-hull courses or could demonstrate a high knowledge of the boats, i.e we'd ask them which boats they'd sailed before, usually who with and to what sort of standard. Then we'd ask them how to deal with certain situations. We were very strict on letting the cats out due to the nature of the boats and had a fast rib with 2 crew giving constant cover with the 2 crew members fully equiped to deal with any forseeable situation. Under no circumstances were absolute novices allowed out on the cats without a multi-hull instructor on-board, and the cats were never left unsupervised. We felt that the standard procedures we used for cat sailing were safe and anything lesser would not be. It might be a lot to ask for Sunsail etc to do the same but my personal opinion is that if they can't, they should not have these sort of boats or any other high performance boats within their fleets.
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
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Posts: 583 		Post Options Post Options   Quote m_liddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 06 at 5:32pm

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

We know that if a crew member is trapped below the boat, we won't be able to right it before the trapped member becomes unconcious and know how to deal with it. Maybe establishments that use high performance boats should consider the same areas as we have.

Interestingly the RYA article http://www.rya.org.uk/NewsAndEvents/newsroom/news/lefkadaacc ident.htm says:

"The conditions of RYA Recognition for Training Centres have now been revised to ensure that instructors are aware of the dangers, and masthead floats are now used where necessary to prevent inversion. Safety boat crews are now trained to right an inverted boat immediately, rather than try to disentangle the crew."
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 06 at 7:42am

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

There is a difference between sailing under instruction and sailing for your own means. When hiring or under tution in a boat, there should be rescue cover to cover you to the highest degree and when sailing independantly you take your own risks.

Precisely. Part of the attraction of this kind of centre for families is that parents and children can independently do their own thing, with the parents comfortable that that their children are safe. 
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Posts: 1991 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 06 at 12:04am

There is a difference between sailing under instruction and sailing for your own means. When hiring or under tution in a boat, there should be rescue cover to cover you to the highest degree and when sailing independantly you take your own risks. When I sail my own boat, I don't expect anybody to be able to rescue me, save my boat and in most situations would only see rescue cover as a possible assistance. We have a formulated standard of procedures for the worst case scenario on my boat and if every teaching establishment knew their boats properly they would be able to do the same. Not every boat is the same and you can't simply cover rescues with one set of rules. We know that if a crew member is trapped below the boat, we won't be able to right it before the trapped member becomes unconcious and know how to deal with it. Maybe establishments that use high performance boats should consider the same areas as we have. Every place I have worked with confirms to the highest standard of procedures, to the point that we had to log every slightest risk of safety to the pupil. I have the deepest sympathies for the family involved with this tragic incident and also for the staff that had to attend to it. I also hope that management within this area take responsibility and take measures to prevent it ever happeneing again.
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
Helensburgh S.C
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Posts: 1991 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 06 at 11:18pm
Originally posted by ColH

Originally posted by m_liddell

Does anyone know if the RYA has been involved? Have they made any official response to this?

Yes

 
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
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ColH View Drop Down
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Posts: 242 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ColH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 06 at 9:28pm

Originally posted by m_liddell

Does anyone know if the RYA has been involved? Have they made any official response to this?

Yes

 
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Posts: 476 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 06 at 11:01am
Originally posted by DaveT

Is there perhaps a case for the RYA to have a kind of "whistle blower" system where perhaps these young instructors can call a number and report the safety issues at the rya training centre they are working for without any come back from thier employers?


I think that the RYA would follow up any report on problems at an approved center.

There is a sheme that started out in aviation called CHIRP which stands for Confidential Hazordus Incident Reporting Programme. http://www.chirp.co.uk

it has recently been expanded to cover maritime issues as well, it is generaly used for big commercial ships but they would probably accept a report on a comercial sailing school. they are confidential and investigate and publish reports without revealing the identety of the reporter.

www.maib.gov.uk

is an interesting and sometimes scary read with some relevent reports on lesure accidents. It is amazing how quickly things can go wrong.

There are a lot of factors that make it difficult for young instructors to blow the whistle and even recognise bad practice. If all you have seen is bad practice from older more experianced instructors it takes a lot to recognise how bad it is and then to realise you need to report it is difficult.
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 06 at 6:35am

Originally posted by DaveT

Is there perhaps a case for the RYA to have a kind of "whistle blower" system where perhaps these young instructors can call a number and report the safety issues at the rya training centre they are working for without any come back from thier employers?

That is an excellent suggestion; young kids "stuck" on the job don't always have the means to resign and walk ... even if they know somthing is wrong.
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