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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pay and play
    Posted: 04 Jun 18 at 9:38am
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by 423zero

My club rents grant purchased boats, Bahia £25 per day, Topaz £5 per day, though individuals can only attend 6 times in any one 12 month period.

Why would the club seek to limit the number of rentals per year? Its almost as if our clubs are run by morons.
 

I read it as a restriction on number of attendances of none  members  to pay and play , members who need / want to rent  / borrow  can  - subject to whatever allocation rules the committee have for the boats 

if someone is attending more frequently  i presume they'd be steered to some form of  membership and then using the member access to the pay and play  fleet 
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 823 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 4:27pm
Umm - already has - see Queen Mary!

What that looks like to me is a larger scale version of the sort of club boat hire arrangements that many clubs have. Probably OK for casual sailors and beginners. But it's a long way from what I'd think of a viable alternative form of boat access/funding to the one we all know and love.

The point made earlier about usage levels seems pretty key to me too, in terms of business viability. If you are trying to appeal to dinghy racers you are going to have to accept your fleet is going to be used for a limited number of hours a week (and all your customers will want them at the same time.)

Pay and play can probably work well for those who are new to the sport, trying it out or just happy to have a sail now and then - in fact it already does at lots of clubs, not just Queen Mary. But if you want serious racing the costs will be at least as high, quite possibly higher, than buying a boat yourself. It'll end up being something for the rich, like in the bad old days when the gentry didn't just buy a boat they paid a boatman to look after it and launch of for them. (It's a model that could work near London!)
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 3:39pm
.... see Queen Mary!

A true model of success that is bound to naturally spread then ..... so why on earth all the speculation about and positioning of the case on this forum ?

Still think the 'Back of the sofa investment fund' is a better bet than this small craft one ... Wink
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Cirrus

Would it be possible to raise money - yes.

If so then of course it will happen surely ?    Decent investment opportunities don't get missed out there. ...  Wink

Umm - already has - see Queen Mary!
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 1:47pm
Would it be possible to raise money - yes.

If so then of course it will happen surely ?    Decent investment opportunities don't get missed out there. ...  Wink
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 12:00pm
There is a lot of pay per go sailing, including racing.
Look at the solent clubs with open keelboats.
Then there is Sunsail.

It would be tough to make any money from renting out racing dinghies for a couple of races a week.
I've done pay'n'play karting and scuba diving. That works.
But sailing, as  in dinghy racing, is all about having other boats of the right level to race against.
I'd quickly get bored racing against either 'improvers' or full time jockeys.

Looking at Oli's post above, I know lots of people who own boats in syndicates, or various forms of shared use, again in keelboats/dayboats/sportsboats.
There is not the same cost driver to get use out of a dinghy, it's cheap enough to insure it and park it at the club, if you only get 6 races out of a season the expense isn't so great.

There are forms of pay'n'play in dinghy racing.
I reckon you could get a boat for most nationals if your wallet is fat enough.
I beleive the going rate varies from a jib to a full suit of sails?
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 11:48am
I suspect that viability would depend as much on the venue and shore facilities as the type of boat.  Is Pay and Play intended to augment the racing fleets or for an afternoon cruise around the lake.

The major risk to the boats is through damage during launching and recovery or collisions from incompetence, so a venue with grassy banks is going to work better than the concrete ramps of the South West London reservoirs.

40 years ago I sailed with a school fleet of wooden Fireflys which were all 20 or so years old, they were fun to sail, and were patched up on an anual basis (also where I learnt my boat mainenance skills that still serve me well) ... Not a lot different to how the Pay and Play experience could be.

I think that the point I am trying to be, is for Pay and Play to be an effective alternative to ownership of a racing dinghy, it has to be a lot more developed than making a load of knackered Club Picos and Toppers to be available to rent. 

Maybe another way to get the 20 to 40 age group would be to look at PCP comtracts for boats, after all this is pretty much how I run my Solo ... buy new one for £ 8.5k, sell it three years later for £ 6.5k, approx £ 665 per year for 60 or so races = £ 10/race* ... buy another and repeat the cycle.

*Man maths
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 11:23am
so if pay n play isn't viable at your location due to lack of startup capital, how about a more direct boat share initiative where perhaps a few people share the cost of owning/operating privately and have usual time share agreements for use? Or even a less direct one where the owner takes the initial capital hit and rents the boat out when not in use more like airbnb? my concern here would be insurance.
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H2 View Drop Down
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Posts: 750 		Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 10:57am
Cirrus - I have raised more than 50m in equity from some of the world largest companies for the start ups that I have led over the last 15 years all of which would be considered very high risk. My current company serves 63m customers in 11 countries all via mobile which I am selling to one of the worlds largest companies. I get it, believe me.

Would I personally invest in P&P site - no. Would it be possible to raise money - yes.
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 18 at 10:26am
do you want me to list them for you?

I've raised six figure sums of risk capital on two occasions from hard nosed investors.  It can be done and I do know a fair bit about how it is really done - and not just in theory.   I can list exceptions that did make it as well ..  but they really are very far from being the majority.

Would I invest in this model or even think reasonable terms were somehow possible - No !   But that maybe just me.  Furthermore I think if it was a decent investable model you or someone else would surely be doing it already here or somewhere overseas.  Frankly the entire small boat market is not right for it.

My view ?  The figures simply don't stack up and will not in the forseeable future either.   


Edited by Cirrus - 01 Jun 18 at 10:27am
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