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Rule 17 and the definition of proper course

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    Posted: 31 Aug 16 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by jeffers

They could argue whatever they like, the definition of Proper Course is 'in the absence of other boats' so PW's actions are immaterial. 

[Pedant hat] Minor point, but it's "a course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term...."

So take this scenario below, and saying that 17 applies between yellow and blue. When determining yellow's proper course, we can "remove" blue and see what that does to yellow's course. But yellow's proper course is to avoid green, so even though she sails higher than before, she doesn't sail higher than her proper course, and doesn't break 17. 
[/Ph]




Seeing as how we've got our pedant hats on, Y's obligation is not to 'avoid' G.  It is to keep clear of G.

But Y's proper course is not only the course necessary to keep clear of G:  it is the course she would sail to best speed.

Y could sail somewhat hotter than as illustrated so as to avoid turbulence from G (or indeed, to avoid tempting G to luff aggressively), and that would still be her proper course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 16 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Originally posted by jeffers

They could argue whatever they like, the definition of Proper Course is 'in the absence of other boats' so PW's actions are immaterial. 

[Pedant hat] Minor point, but it's "a course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term...."

So take this scenario below, and saying that 17 applies between yellow and blue. When determining yellow's proper course, we can "remove" blue and see what that does to yellow's course. But yellow's proper course is to avoid green, so even though she sails higher than before, she doesn't sail higher than her proper course, and doesn't break 17. 

[/Ph]




As yellow is going to windward of green in your example she is not subject to Rule 17 with regards to Green though. Green however can use rule 11 should she choose to make life difficult for Yellow (and possibly Blue).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 16 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by jeffers

They could argue whatever they like, the definition of Proper Course is 'in the absence of other boats' so PW's actions are immaterial. 

[Pedant hat] Minor point, but it's "a course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term...."

So take this scenario below, and saying that 17 applies between yellow and blue. When determining yellow's proper course, we can "remove" blue and see what that does to yellow's course. But yellow's proper course is to avoid green, so even though she sails higher than before, she doesn't sail higher than her proper course, and doesn't break 17. 

[/Ph]





Edited by Presuming Ed - 31 Aug 16 at 4:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 16 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by flaming


Originally posted by jeffers

Agree with Ed. PL would not have done that if the Symmetric spinnaker boat was not there. PW was free to do as they pleased pretty much as long as they kept clear of the Symmetric boat and PL (so going high to create space and gybe is a good tactical call IMO given PL's mistake).

But could they not argue that they would have gone high if Symmetric wasn't there if PW had sailed that course?  

They could argue whatever they like, the definition of Proper Course is 'in the absence of other boats' so PW's actions are immaterial. 



Point is, Proper Course is to finish 'as soon as possible' not 'in front of a competitor'.

Thanks.  That clarifies it in my mind!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 16 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by jeffers


Originally posted by flaming


Originally posted by jeffers

Agree with Ed. PL would not have done that if the Symmetric spinnaker boat was not there. PW was free to do as they pleased pretty much as long as they kept clear of the Symmetric boat and PL (so going high to create space and gybe is a good tactical call IMO given PL's mistake).

But could they not argue that they would have gone high if Symmetric wasn't there if PW had sailed that course?  

They could argue whatever they like, the definition of Proper Course is 'in the absence of other boats' so PW's actions are immaterial. 



Point is, Proper Course is to finish 'as soon as possible' not 'in front of a competitor'.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 16 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by flaming

Originally posted by jeffers

Agree with Ed. PL would not have done that if the Symmetric spinnaker boat was not there. PW was free to do as they pleased pretty much as long as they kept clear of the Symmetric boat and PL (so going high to create space and gybe is a good tactical call IMO given PL's mistake).

But could they not argue that they would have gone high if Symmetric wasn't there if PW had sailed that course?  

They could argue whatever they like, the definition of Proper Course is 'in the absence of other boats' so PW's actions are immaterial. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 16 at 3:00pm
They could argue that, but I think they'd lose the protest.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 16 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Agree with Ed. PL would not have done that if the Symmetric spinnaker boat was not there. PW was free to do as they pleased pretty much as long as they kept clear of the Symmetric boat and PL (so going high to create space and gybe is a good tactical call IMO given PL's mistake).

But could they not argue that they would have gone high if Symmetric wasn't there if PW had sailed that course?  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 16 at 11:53am
Agree with Ed. PL would not have done that if the Symmetric spinnaker boat was not there. PW was free to do as they pleased pretty much as long as they kept clear of the Symmetric boat and PL (so going high to create space and gybe is a good tactical call IMO given PL's mistake).
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 16 at 11:04am
Short answer: 

Yes. 
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