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Contact While Taking a Penalty Turn

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reddeck74 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote reddeck74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Contact While Taking a Penalty Turn
    Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 4:06pm
What is the penalty for hitting another boat whilst taking a penalty turn?
David
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 5:30pm
Someone more knowlagable on the rules than me will probibly need to answer this properly but as far as I know when you are doing your turns you surrender all rights whatsoever, therefore it is your duty to keep clear of all other boats. Im assuming therefore that if you hit something whilst doing your turns you are always in the wrong and it can only result in more turns
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Post Options Post Options   Quote reddeck74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 5:53pm
That's what I think too but someone in our club argues differently.

He says if you don't get clear when taking your penalty you have broken rule
44.2 of Part 4 (which descrtibes how you should take your penalty) for which
there is no alternative, i.e. rule 44.1 does not apply to this (second)
infringement.

His argument is that you should retire.

David
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Phil eltringham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 6:13pm
He is probably correct, this only canges if the rules have been changed in the S.I.'s.  Or: If you can ague (as the person taking the turns) that the person you hit was nowhere near their proper course then you would probably get away with it, but I'd not like to defend that one in a protest room. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 6:38pm

Originally posted by reddeck74

He says if you don't get clear when taking your penalty you have broken rule 44.2 of Part 4 (which descrtibes how you should take your penalty) for which there is no alternative, i.e. rule 44.1 does not apply to this (second) infringement. His argument is that you should retire.

I agree. 44.1 prescribes the two-turn penalty described in 44.2 for a violation of RRS part 2 i.e. the "right of way" section. Rule 44 is in part 4. 44.2 requires you to be "well clear" of other boats when taking the turns. If you hit another boat while doing turns, you have violated a part 4 rule, not a part 2 rule, and therefore 44.1 does not apply i.e. you cannot exonerate the 2nd violation with another set of turns. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 7:09pm
I wasn't looking at the latest copy of the rules, but the 01-04 rule 44 doesn't make any reference to exceptions to the rule, so I would imagine it would be further turns, except if damage is caused when it's always disqualification. I'd just keep clear, it's easier!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote CurlyBen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by reddeck74

He says if you don't get clear when taking your penalty you have broken rule 44.2 of Part 4 (which descrtibes how you should take your penalty) for which there is no alternative, i.e. rule 44.1 does not apply to this (second) infringement. His argument is that you should retire.

I agree. 44.1 prescribes the two-turn penalty described in 44.2 for a violation of RRS part 2 i.e. the "right of way" section. Rule 44 is in part 4. 44.2 requires you to be "well clear" of other boats when taking the turns. If you hit another boat while doing turns, you have violated a part 4 rule, not a part 2 rule, and therefore 44.1 does not apply i.e. you cannot exonerate the 2nd violation with another set of turns. 



I didn't see this post before I replied, but I suppose you could argue that a boat that has broken a rule, whether required to do turns or retire, has no rights of way over a boat that is racing, and therefore it was another violation of the right of way rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 05 at 7:35am

Originally posted by CurlyBen

I suppose you could argue that a boat that has broken a rule, whether required to do turns or retire, has no rights of way over a boat that is racing, and therefore it was another violation of the right of way rules.

No, because the requirement to stay clear during turns is not a part 2 ("when boats meet") rule, it is a part 4 rule (44.2). 44.1 allows turns as a penalty for part 2 violations only.

Similarly, you can't pump and then exonerate yourself by turns, because the "means of propulsion" rules are in part 4, not part 2. 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote reddeck74 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 05 at 9:47am
I can go along with Stefan Lloyd's point about propulsion (an advantage
gained).
However, the penalty for making contact with another boat is clearly stated
in Part 2. Nowhere in Part 2, as far as I am aware, is a penalty described for
'illegal propulsion' or even illegal buoyancy for that matter.
So, presumably any breach of Part 4 results in retirement/disqualification? Is
that stated anywhere in the RRS?
David
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 05 at 10:53am

Easiest to start with the rules themselves:

44 PENALTIES FOR BREAKING RULES OF PART 2

44.1 Taking a Penalty

A boat that may have broken a rule of Part 2 while racing may take a penalty at the time of the incident. Her penalty shall be a Two-Turns Penalty unless the sailing instructions specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty. However, if she caused injury or serious damage or gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

44.2 Two-Turns Penalty

After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making two turns in the same direction, including two tacks and two gybes. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing.

Separately:

20 STARTING ERRORS; PENALTY TURNS; MOVING  ASTERN

20.2 A boat making a penalty turn shall keep clear of one that is not.

So, the requirement of a boat doing a penalty turn to keep clear is not part of rule 44, but is part of rule 20. (However, the requirement to get well clear is part of 44 - but "get well clear" isn't actually defined). Rule 20 is in part 2, so  if you hit someone while taking a two turn penalty, you have infringed a rule of part 2, and should exonerate yourself by taking another two turn penalty (Unless, of course, you have caused serious damage, or injury, or gained a a signifcant advantage.)

Also:

22.2 A boat shall not change course if her only purpose is to interfere with a boat making a penalty turn or one on another leg or lap of the course.

So you can't hunt somebody down and hit them when they're doing turns.



Edited by Presuming Ed
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