Heat Loss through Wetsuits

   My new 5mm, double-lined wetsuit helpfully states that its thickness comprises 4.5mm of neoprene and 0.5mm of nylon lining.
Presuming that my "3mm wetsuit" also includes 0.5mm of lining, that leaves only 2.5mm of neoprene. No wonder the new one is so much warmer.
I sit there at lunchtimes between races shivering in the wet 3mm plus spray top while dry people are completely comfortable in just T-shirts, as I'm sure I would be myself if I took the trouble to dry off and change. Upon analysis, my top half actually feels OK under the spray top, while my bottom half is cold.
My explanation for this is that the heat lost by evaporation from the wet outer nylon lining is greater than or at least equal to the insulation of the 2.5mm of neoprene. No surprise, then, that winter wetsuits have single-lined panels. So much for the problem.
Has anyone tried solving this by making the outer lining water-repellent so that there's no water soaked into the nylon to evaporate? I'll confess, I did try Nikwax for Goretex clothing, but while this had no beneficial influence on water uptake or heat transfer, it did send me sliding all over the side-deck!
Latest thought is waxing with a thick wax (ski-wax, Simoniz?!) the areas I don't sit on. Comments? Ridicule?

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Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Heat Loss through Wetsuits Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 2:47pm
	My new 5mm, double-lined wetsuit helpfully states that its thickness comprises 4.5mm of neoprene and 0.5mm of nylon lining. Presuming that my "3mm wetsuit" also includes 0.5mm of lining, that leaves only 2.5mm of neoprene. No wonder the new one is so much warmer. I sit there at lunchtimes between races shivering in the wet 3mm plus spray top while dry people are completely comfortable in just T-shirts, as I'm sure I would be myself if I took the trouble to dry off and change. Upon analysis, my top half actually feels OK under the spray top, while my bottom half is cold. My explanation for this is that the heat lost by evaporation from the wet outer nylon lining is greater than or at least equal to the insulation of the 2.5mm of neoprene. No surprise, then, that winter wetsuits have single-lined panels. So much for the problem. Has anyone tried solving this by making the outer lining water-repellent so that there's no water soaked into the nylon to evaporate? I'll confess, I did try Nikwax for Goretex clothing, but while this had no beneficial influence on water uptake or heat transfer, it did send me sliding all over the side-deck! Latest thought is waxing with a thick wax (ski-wax, Simoniz?!) the areas I don't sit on. Comments? Ridicule?
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class

winging it Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 22 Mar 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3958	Post Options Post Reply Quote winging it Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 3:37pm
	I've taken to wearing chicken power poly pro stuff under my summer wetsuit (3mm) if it's sort of in between cold/warm weather. This works really well for me. My new winter wetsuit (gill Hurakan) is very much warmer, but has variable thickness panels (5mm - 2mm) and some water repellent panels which annoy me because if they snag they rip really easily, but I do think they keep me warmer. I can still wear the poly pro stuff under if it's really cold, which is especially good for the legs. (I bought the poly pro kit from their ebay shop - much cheeper )
	the same, but different...

Captain Morgan Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 03 Sep 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 211	Post Options Post Reply Quote Captain Morgan Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 3:40pm
	Goose fat? Has worked well for cross-Channel swimmers..! Seriously though, why bother with the 3mm wetsuit when you have a nice new warm 5mm wetsuit? I tend to wear a 5mm wetsuit right up until it gets too hot in Summer (I can't remember when that last happened!). Sailing on the sea with occasional/frequent "swims" and I've found that my 3mm wetsuit is usually too cold unless it really is baking hot, at which point I wouldn't want it to be overly waterproof/warm.

Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 4:05pm
	The 3mm is more comfortable in that it enables me to bend and crouch more easily, as well as being easier to get in and out of and, most importantly it has a longer front zip enabling me to pee at lunchtimes without getting naked! So a water shedding 3mm would be tops. I take your point, Winging It, about unlined neoprene - that's my abiding recollection of my first wetsuit (complete with yellow tape!) - got torn to bits. But surely we can reduce water uptake by the nylon?
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class

winging it Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 22 Mar 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3958	Post Options Post Reply Quote winging it Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 4:11pm
	I agree about the flexibility issues, also, in the contender I leap about so much I get warm pretty quickly. I find I really only want the gill suit for when it's very cold or if I'll be sitting about a bit between races. or if I know I'm going to capsize, like training sessions practising wire to wire tacking I snagged the gill suit the very first time I wore it...
	the same, but different...

kanga Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 09 Oct 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 248	Post Options Post Reply Quote kanga Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 4:27pm
	Love the Gill Speedskin too - anything without arms - you can layer up underneath, but no arms greatly helps flexibility - i wear base layer thermals under a speedskin when its cold, and the O'Neill over-the-top warm winter Rash Vest... Winner.

kanga Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Far too distracted from work Joined: 09 Oct 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 248	Post Options Post Reply Quote kanga Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 4:29pm
	and a hat, helps always!

G.R.F. Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028	Post Options Post Reply Quote G.R.F. Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 4:35pm
	Buy a Spartan Wetsuit, and smoothskin, I'll explain why and once more y'all will leave the forum so much better informed than when you arrived. At this point I have no connection with nor do I profit by the sale of said wetsuits. First we should establish for surface windbased sports single lined wetsuits should be used because of the wind induced chill factor that double lining brings. O.K. accepted that double lining reduces wear, but if you get a better quality single lined suit, they shouldn't snag or wear as dramatically as some do these days. So of late in the quest for cheaper suits (I used to sell wetsuits for as much as£180 in 1979 at the LBS) their recent production methods of single lined neoprene has reduced its effectiveness. Neoprene as you are probably aware is a rubber based product turned to foam by introducing a nitrogen mix I believe and left to set in big blocks, which they nowadays cut into individual sheets. At the top and the bottom of the block a skin forms and this skin provides the very best smoothskin, once upon a time they produced narrow sheets, but as I said now they slice the neoprene and for the most part the middle section which is pretty much air and there's more of it so cheaper, is then lined either side with nylon or polypro (which is warmer). What some clever dickies had been doing of late is to spray the sheets with a rubber spray paint to give the appearance of smoothskin (the high gloss type) and they can achieve lots of other effects this way. But UV has a habit of degrading this stuff, and it can snag very easily with your nails even in store trying the suits on, hence the reluctance of retailers to stock them and the high level of wear through snagging. So, the bottom line I know for a fact Spartan only use the very cream of the crop smoothskin, it's a British company and my latest suit is the most comfortable warmest suit I've ever owned, give one a try next time you buy a winter suit and see what I mean. Then thank me for pointing it out. (just don't ask me what it's called I totally forget it's the one with the new leg drain valves) Edited by G.R.F.
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Medway Maniac Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788	Post Options Post Reply Quote Medway Maniac Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 6:13pm
	The same Spartan who supplied my single-lined, yellow taped suit X0-odd years ago?! A British company still in business after all that time, that's amazing - here they are, I guess: http://www.spartanwetsuits.com/ Except, I notice they also do a double-lined suit, so they maybe aren't as confident of the abrasion resistance of bare neoprene as you GRF. None of which helps those of us with near-new, double lined suits now. I'm now thinking that wax might just crumble away once the suit started stretching... Silicon oil, MacLube... I wonder...
	Wilsonian SC 3000 Class

G.R.F. Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028	Post Options Post Reply Quote G.R.F. Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 29 Apr 09 at 7:04pm
	Double lined suits are ok on the surface or sub surface, surfers, divers etc How long would you like to wear a wet T shirt in a cold wind? That's what double lined is doing to you via your existing suit, they have to be a mil or two thicker just to make up for the chill factor of the water held in the lining. Spartan did finally close a year or two back, this is a new team that bought the business of the original owner, John Tilbrooke. They've always targeted the windsurf market and unlike Gul who were also a surf then windsurf brand, they failed to cross into other markets and dinghy sailors have always been notoriously stingy in their purchasing habits until recently.
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