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'Weight on the Wire'

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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 'Weight on the Wire'
    Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 9:56am

Here's a topic ripe for a massive exchange of mutual ignorance.

Time and again I've heard the advice that it helps to get the crew's weight on the wire early, be it by powering up (increasing rig sideforce/heeling moment really) or by the helm moving inboard.

Besides increasing mast compression and thus bend (in theory, anyway) - something we don't normally want to do in under-powered conditions - and increasing aerodynamic drag on the crew, I don't see what's been achieved except some extra leeway/induced drag from the extra sideforce if that's the route we've taken to get the crew out.

It may be that in a few isolated examples the rig needs that extra bit of mast bend to get the main to set right (though I'd have hoped to find a more efficient way of doing that), but I've never noticed any such benefit in the boats I've sailed.

Anyway, please discuss.

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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 10:07am
Dont know why we do it, call it windsurfers gut feeling, but we always
have someone out there. Either we're both out there when the wind
permits or he's out and I'm sitting in, or he sits in so I can get out there.

In windsurf world, getting hooked in and out unweights the board by
transferring the rider weight to the rig kind of what you see them doing
with foils bringing the rig over their heads, so we have this natural urge
to get out to weather.

I also think there's a natural tendency for a boat to heel to leeward and
getting 'out' at the very least brings it vertical which we all know (at least
the books tell us) upright is faster. (Unless you are lucky enough to have
that t foil assisting your ability to rake the whole lot over your head
windsurf style.)

Whatever it does, it just feels dead wrong both of us just sat there side by
side like twin dorks, so we don't do it. (Not that it means anything since
we've never sailed side by side with someone else of identical weight in
an identical boat to test the theory.)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fans1024 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 10:19am

With me, and I really don't know if this the right way, it depends on the conditions.  If I'm wiring on the way up, then as soon as I've hoisted the kite I will be straight out on the wire.  If its been marginal/sitting on the side conditions on the way up, I won't go out on the wire until I need to.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but weight on the wire is going to alter the rig settings and flatten the sail, not ideal in light conditions.  So, I can't see the point of me on the wire, whilst the monkey with the stick sits on the other side.  Surely its best to have a straight mast, with full sails than have someone on the wire, when its not needed for righting purposes.

I could be very, very wrong...

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Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 10:57am
Putting the crew out on the wire causes the leeward spreader to push the mast to windward. This makes the top of
the mast to bend to leeward and opens up the jib slot a bit, not really desirable behaviour. It feels faster than
just having helm and crew hike out a bit, but TBH I doubt whether it really helps at all.

Trapezing off the centreboard Jimbo, that reminds me of my days sailing long boards. It definitely helped to get
the centre of effort (ie, my feet) pushing on the centre of lateral resistance, but of course that was an unstayed
mast so it kept its shape. I doubt whether it would work quite so well on a 420, but (mast deformation aside)
probably a good idea.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 11:06am
On single spreader boats in the old days before massive rig tension there was an definite yo yo effect which was caused by the crew weight on the wire unloading the windward shroud which in turn stopped the spreader holding the mast straight, so you would get out on the wire, the loss of spreader effect would then depower the rig, you'd have to get in again and so on. All that bouncing around massively unsettled boat and rig, so anything you could do to stop it was good. Its quite possible the advice is a hang over from those days.

But alternatively anything that tends to make folk concentrate harder and sail flatter is likley to be fast...
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 12:11pm
It is also true that you get a better view of the spinnaker as a crew on the wire, and in a low cut asym spinnaker boat, the helm to leeward might get a chance to see other boats coming...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by JimC

On single spreader boats in the old days before massive rig tension there was an definite yo yo effect which was caused by the crew weight on the wire unloading the windward shroud which in turn stopped the spreader holding the mast straight, so you would get out on the wire, the loss of spreader effect would then depower the rig, you'd have to get in again and so on. All that bouncing around massively unsettled boat and rig, so anything you could do to stop it was good. Its quite possible the advice is a hang over from those days.

But alternatively anything that tends to make folk concentrate harder and sail flatter is likley to be fast...


In the 470 we found that we could counter that yo yo effect by pulling on the strut/chock thing (470s are only allowed basic pullers) this would straighten up the mast and give more power to keep me out there.

In variable stuff you can react much more quickly to puffs if you're on the wire.  When reaching you have a much better view of the kite.  We also trapezed off the centreboard, especially in Mediterranean chop. 

In the contender I will trapeze high again in light stuff because I have much better mobility for reacting to puff.  You do need a well fitting harness though, even for the women!
the same, but different...

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MikeBz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MikeBz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 1:55pm

Originally posted by Mikey 14778

.Trapezing off the centreboard Jimbo, that reminds me of my days sailing long boards. It definitely helped to get
the centre of effort (ie, my feet) pushing on the centre of lateral resistance..

Eh? Isn't that like trying to lift yourself up with your own bootstraps?

Mike

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Mikey 14778 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mikey 14778 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 2:14pm
Kinda difficult to explain Mike. Going upwind, when you lean back and get the sail over you, a lot of the
force from the rig (sideways & forwards as well as upwards) travels to the board through your body. If you
happen to be sailing a long-board (ie, one with a centreboard, now deeply unfashionable no doubt), you can
put both feet either on it or on the side adjacent to it and effectively transmit all the sideways force
directly to the board / centre of lateral resistance. This removes a lot of the sideways force that would
otherwise have gone into the skeg, and feels more 'connected'. It also means you've got your legs together,
so look pretty cool
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Strawberry View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strawberry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 09 at 2:48pm

When we're sailing the Cherub we tend to put the helm on the crew's trapeze wire as high and as far forward as possible. The crew has the mainsheet and concentrates on the heal (side to side) of the boat. The helm has a really good view of the water from his high position and uses this to watch the water for waves and flat spots and concentrate on the balance (fore and aft).

However, light wind days are best spent in the bar drinking and laughing at those less fortunate than yourself, or in the garage building carbon spondhoolics!

edit: More rig tension could solve your bendy mast problems. We use about 350-400lbs.



Edited by Strawberry
Cherub 2649 "Dangerous Strawberry
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