Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
![]() |
Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
![]() |
Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
![]() |
List classes of boat for sale |
Performance Factors |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page 123 4> |
Author | |
redback ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Tunbridge Wells Online Status: Offline Posts: 1502 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 6:18pm |
What is the relative importance to performance of length, weight, sail area, gennaker, trapeze, twin trapeze?
|
|
![]() |
|
Iain C ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1113 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
How long is a piece of string? Varies enormously with wind and waves and point of sail. Example: Cherub v 49er z 14 v 12' Skiff Weymouth, light wind. 49er/14 disappear (waterline length) Cherub same speed as 12 upwind (less drag from rig as non-wiring conditions, better pointing, hull shape and ability to keep crew forward better for light conditions), 12 dissapears from Cherub downwind (sail area and angles) but still not as fast as 14/49er round the course. Cherub v 49er Weston Skiff event, medium breeze, solent shop. 9er much faster upwind and through tacks (Cherub stops dead!), however Cherub nearly as fast sometimes faster downwind in the gusts. LWL irrelevant as very little of Cherub in the water. 12' skiff v 14 yesterday, Draycote, windy. 14 much faster uphill (more rag and more LWL than 12) until wind pipes up a notch, 14 overpowered,12 sails out from underneath (*puts tin hat on and waits for the forum fun to start!*). Downwind 12 is faster due to angles and kite area and weight. Just too many variables I think! Edited by Iain C |
|
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
|
![]() |
|
redback ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Tunbridge Wells Online Status: Offline Posts: 1502 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
We're teasing somthing out of this though. I'm sure we'd all agree length is an advantage in sub planning conditions and naturally hull shape. My recent experience is between 800s, 4000s and a 400. The 800 has the length but very little rocker and so once the wind drops to very low the 800 stops, the 4000 can creep up to them but the 400 sails right past. So in a force 2 I'd say the PY for a 400 is about 950, a 4000 about 980 and a 800 about 1100! Force 3 and its 400 - 950, 4000 - 950 and 800 - 900. Having sailed a Cherub many years ago I'd say in force 3 its dire but about to get interesting. Any thoughts out there? |
|
![]() |
|
Merlinboy ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Jul 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3169 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Ian is right the 12 was faster down hill although we were sailing lower angles would like to have a good race against yopu though mate!
|
|
![]() |
|
Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Edited;
Just about every skiff designer says that length is vital for all-round speed. As well as effecting displacement speed, it alters your options for bow angles, rocker lines, and sections, and greater length makes handling easier. Doesn't the 14 v 12 example show that length is the most important factor? After all, the 12 has much better ratios of length, weight and wetted surface to sail area, is much lighter, has more sail, has the huge advantage of having variable rigs designed to perform in a narrower range, etc etc. In planing conditions downwind, length isn't much of a factor. I wonder whether a 12 or Cherub may actually be benefiting from the short, wide shape which presents a highly efficient high-aspect (ie wide beam/short length) planing surface when they are fully powered on the plane - sort of like a Formula Windsurfer board which uses the same effect. Righting arm (ie crew weight and distance from centreline) may be the next most important as without it you can't carry a big rig. Weight may be over-rated in some ways - some Skiffs are actually very heavy in terms of sailing weight, because they have very big crew weights for their length. However, since this is traded off for huge leverage, you can carry a big rig so you can go fast despite the weight. In terms of weight-for-length, the International Canoe rules (17' LOA, one person) but slow boats like the Laser 4.7 rate surprisingly well. When you plot fast boats, they have a huge range of weight-for-length and actual length, but all of them have good righting moment. Then again, to confuse matters the Righting Moment isn't always used and merely adding a trap and slightly bigger rig may not be a huge improvement...which goes against the above. Ah well, it's all so complicated, as Iain C says. Edited by Chris 249 |
|
![]() |
|
Blobby ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 May 04 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 779 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
If I put it in my simple terms, straight line performance is about drag versus power. However, as the ad says, power is nothing without control. If you want to perform, then surely the foiling moths show that what is important is low drag in a controllable package (without the auto-wand on the Moth the controllable bit isn't there and you don't go very far). So, if you colour the picture on all the things listed above with the ability to maintain control, then you get a pretty good picture of each. Length - reduces drag at displacement speeds and improves controllability at higher speeds. Weight - need to differentiate here between moveable ballast and fixed ballast - lighter fixed weight is generally faster but too light and the lack of momentum starts to hurt. More moveable ballast is generally better and the more it can be moved the better (in general) - but then you get back to the limits of control. Righting Moment - more is generally better but there are limits as you still have to control the beast (18' skiffs on Waterloo Bay versus Sydney Harbour is the classic example - smooth wind in Waterloo bay made control easier so the boats got wider and faster). Sail Area - more is better up to the limit of control / power etc etc etc etc.
|
|
One step forwards, 2 steps back...
|
|
![]() |
|
charlie1019 ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 28 Nov 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 173 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Would have been interesting to have had a bit of a race with the 12 on sunday to see how the different advatages would have worked out over the course. From our perspective (in the 14) we certainly pointed higher up wind at a similar boat speed until the wind piped up - then needed more rake! The bit I thought was the most interesting was how high you were sailing down wind even with the bigger kite. We just could not wind the 14 up that high without the apparent wind pushing us way off to leward? An example of a more efficient kite shape?? I don't know. The thing that makes the biggest difference to our speed is our T foil - let it off up wind and the boat feels like its stopped! Pull it on down wind and again you can really feel the boat lower it nose and accelerate, or alternativly, as we were doing sunday afternoon leave it off for the more impressive ride (or lazyness - afterall we weren't racing). If we were racing a windward leward somewhere small, I'd certainly favour the chute option over the bags... plus easier when swimming
|
|
![]() |
|
JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
With huge rigs, big righting moent and all the rest of it length isn't as big a deal as it used to be - from 95% down to maybe 85% of performance... But the thing that people tend to miss is that you have to add huge amounts of rag and righting moment to make up for really quite small differences in length. If you add 10% extra length it makes quite a difference, but 10% extra rag is damn all...
|
|
![]() |
|
getafix ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
One thing that also needs to be taken into account is foils, with the
current trend towards foils that produce lift or increase/decrease drag
it's possible to compensate lift for the traditional speed ingredients
(like length of hull) by moving to an ultra low weight hull with
minimal aerodynamic profile (so it cuts the air efficiently rather than
hydro-dynamic as it's not in the water that much anymore) - if you're
'flying' on your foils, you also don't need a huge sail, rather an
efficient 'wing' that works to keep the flow moving over a huge rag
that produces tons of power you don't now need - foiling moth is a
prime example but I notice there's now foiling multihulls, foiling
skiffs.... how long before someone re-hashes a boat like a B14 or 49er
with lifting foils to produce a much faster dinghy?
|
|
Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
|
|
![]() |
|
Iain C ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1113 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Hmmm, I actually thought we (12) was sailing lower than the 14 downwind but I'll stand corrected. You were certainly outpointing us uphill! Thinking about it we were probably sailing artificially high to try and get the reach down into Toft Bay and also give us a few options if a big gust came in. We were on the knots with the main well out for a lot of it, there was the anchored committee boat that seemed to be in the way most of the time too (as a 20 foot boat would be on 700 acres...) I think if we had been VMGing it then we would have poked it a bit lower and also sailed a bit flatter. Don't suppose you had a GPS on board did you? Be interesting to compare tracks... |
|
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page 123 4> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |