Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
![]() |
Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
![]() |
Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
![]() |
List classes of boat for sale |
Tacking in the zone and mark room. |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page 123> |
Author | |
Noah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 9:45am |
OK, so I’m approaching the windward mark, on port, about a couple of boat lengths shy of the port tack lay line. There’s a boat approaching above (my perception) the starboard tack lay-line who is plainly the right of way boat. Doing nothing would result in a collision. I don't have the space to cross. I will have to tack or duck. Because it appears there’s space, I elect to tack (yes – in the zone) to leeward, on the starboard lay-line. When my tack is complete I don't think there's an overlap. Further, he (I maintain) bears down onto me and collides. Calls of ‘Protest’ from the other boat, so I did my turns, on the basis that I tacked in the zone and in doing so forfeited all rights. Question is: Did I need to? I read rule 18 but could not work out who was in the right… |
|
Nick
D-Zero 316 |
|
![]() |
|
Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Something like this?
![]() (Grrr. Carp Y&Y forum software strikes again. Why isn't there a gallery function here. Why can't I upload images??? Is this the 21st century?) So. From the top. 18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a
mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.
However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the
mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19
applies. Before you tack, 18 doesn't apply (18.1.a). Once you're through head to wind, you're on starboard, but 13 applies. 13 WHILE TACKING
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats
until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11
and 12 do not apply. " When my tack is complete I don't think there's an overlap. " I.E., in your view, you are clear ahead. 18.3 Tacking in the Zone
If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack
as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply
between them. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to
avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark
on the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped
inside her. The other boat is fetching the mark, so 18.2 does not apply between you. You have no right to mark room, despite being an inside boat. However, as you are a boat clear ahead (in your view), the other boat has to keep clear of you. And if he does get overlapped to windward of you, then he has to keep clear as a windward boat. The difficulty is that this is very much a he said/she said protest, and we only have your side of the story. It could well be that in his view, you tacked too close and there was nothing he could do to avoid contact. Questions: a) I assume you tack facing forwards. When you say that you don't think there was an overlap, how do you know? When did you turn to look? b) What was the distance between the boat when you completed your tack? (Close hauled course) c) You say that you believe he bore away onto you. Where was the contact on your boat? On his? What was the angle between the boats - were you both on the same heading? Did you turn round and see him bear away? Edited by Presuming Ed - 07 Apr 15 at 10:33am |
|
![]() |
|
JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
And also don't forget that while he was right of way boat he was always entitled to sail straight for the mark even if lower than close hauled. That might feel like bearing down on you but it's his right.
|
|
![]() |
|
Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
And I didn't mention 15.
|
|
![]() |
|
Noah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Ed, thanks. I completely agree that it's a he said/she said and my aim here is education. Your diagram is pretty much spot on. Yes, I tack facing forwards. Distance between us when my tack was completed? I would say that his bow passed my transom as I sat down on the side deck. Crew hadn't had time to get onto the wire (may not have been going out anyway as were were about to round the top mark and go for the hoist). W/W boat's course was lower than mine but not by much. Contact was beam to beam close to amidships - just a brush past, really.
At no time did I make him go above a close-hauled course. Perception of bearing down was due to my impression that he changed course. Impossible to prove one way or the other. Jim, I also appreciate that he can sail straight to the mark and doesn't have to anticipate any action on my part, but see previous para. I guess it would come down to when the overlap was established and/or whether he did bear away after hailing 'Starboard'. |
|
Nick
D-Zero 316 |
|
![]() |
|
JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
My feeling is that in a hearing you'd have trouble avoiding a DSQ under RRS 13/15, so doing the turns was a good call.
Edited by JimC - 07 Apr 15 at 12:18pm |
|
![]() |
|
Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I'd say that doing your turns was a very good move if things were that close. Coming into the mark tight on Port always a big risk, and I always assume I'll be in the wrong if the move fails. And yes, I'd be cross if I thought the starboard boat had borne away after the tack, not before, but chances are any witnesses wouldn't see it my way - if it is that close, it is too close. Been there, done the turns - grumpily.
|
|
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
|
![]() |
|
Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Ah. What sort of boat? Your & his? How fast? How much speed do you loose through the tack? Ceteris paribus, you would normally say that in the time taken to go from clear astern to alongside, he had sufficient time to luff to keep clear. Big question to the other boat, asking him why he didn't keep clear.
Edited by Presuming Ed - 07 Apr 15 at 1:34pm |
|
![]() |
|
Noah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I'm a Fireball, so not the fasted tacking ship on the planet. The other is a Flying Fifteen (20' Uffa Fox designed racing keelboat - carry speed well 'cos they weigh quite a lot!) We're faster, in theory, but until we're properly planing upwind they can be all over us.
This is all about time and opportunity, isn't it... |
|
Nick
D-Zero 316 |
|
![]() |
|
Presuming Ed ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
It's all about 15 and giving room. Did you tack too close? The mark isn't relevant (*).
(* Assuming he agrees that he didn't sail above a close hauled).
|
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page 123> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |