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Tour de France a la Voile -Am I missing something?
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    Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 7:54pm
My understanding has always been that if you cause significant damage you cannot absolve yourself by doing spins.

yet at the start of the first offshore there was a collision that removed a bowsprit, but no additional penalty for the offending boat.  Have I had it wrong?

Sodebo’s bowsprit and redress: 
Today Sodebo obtained redress for a broken bowsprit after they made contact with Bretagne CME at the start of the first offshore leg from Dunkirk to Breskens. Sodebo scored 10th because of the lack of performance due to the destruction of this essential part. Bretagne CME was in fault and Sodebo will therefore score the average of all offshore leg (and Round the Ile of Groix race) results until they reach St-Gilles Croix de Vie. Bretagne CME was not penalized since they absolved themselves immediately following the collision.




Edited by flaming - 02 Jul 13 at 7:57pm
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jul 13 at 10:10pm
Normally you wouldn't get average points either, following damage, would you? Or do you?? Maybe they are using tweaked rules.
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 13 at 1:00pm
Don't know if the Tour de France a la Voile has changed the relevant rules, but the standard rules are as follows:
 
44.1 Taking a Penalty
A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken
one or more rules of Part 2 in an incident while racing. She may take
a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31.
Alternatively, sailing instructions may specify the use of the Scoring
Penalty or some other penalty, in which case the specified penalty
shall replace the One-Turn and the Two-Turns Penalty. However,
(a) when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the
same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule
31;
(b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or, despite taking a
penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by
her breach her penalty shall be to retire.
 
62.1 A request for redress or a protest committee’s decision to consider
redress shall be based on a claim or possibility that a boat’s score in a
race or series has been or may be, through no fault of her own, made
significantly worse by
(b) injury or physical damage because of the action of a boat that
was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not racing that was
required to keep clear;
 
So on that basis it is possible, in theory at least, for both the at-fault boat to exonerate themselves by taking a 2-turn penalty and the damaged boat to be granted redress - there has to be physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 (affecting the score of the damaged boat) but the damage has to be less than "serious".
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 13 at 1:05pm
So I guess it would come down to if having your bowsprit removed counted as serious.
Given that it clearly impacted their performance I think you'd have to say yes...
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Posts: 94 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GML Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 13 at 1:57pm

I'm not sure that damage has to have a material impact on performance for it to be "serious". And vice versa, I'm not sure that damage that has a material impact on performance is necessarily "serious". (Whilst ISAF Case 19 and RYA Case 2001/3 give some guidance on interpretation of the term "damage", neither helps with interpretation of the term "serious damage").
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 13 at 2:59pm
The Judges Manual Part M deals with Damage and Injury
 

M.1 Introduction

These important words are used in conjunction with four rules. Yet, despite their importance; there is very little case law to guide a protest committee as to their application.

• Damage

Rule 14(b), penalise a boat for contact that causes damage

• Serious damage

Rule 44.1, taking a penalty for a part 2 infringement

• Physical damage

Rule 62.1(b), granting redress

• Serious damage or serious injury

Rule 60.3(a)(1), protest brought by a protest committee

M.2 Damage

There is no definition of exactly what constitutes damage; however ISAF Case 19 provides two examples to enable judges to ask questions to establish damage.

• was the current market value of any part of the boat, or of the boat as a whole, diminished?

• was an item or equipment made less functional?

The ISAF Racing Rules Question and Answer Service although not binding, unlike ISAF Cases provided a definition of Damage but this was withdrawn, along with most of the Q&As from the beginning of 2013. Readers are recommended to look regularly at the Q&As in the ISAF web site to see if there has been a replacement Q&A to assist in reaching what is the required extent of damage.

M.3 Serious Damage

This is not possible to define but a protest committee should ask:

• was the performance of the boat or crew seriously impaired?

• was the market value of the boat significantly diminished?

• was a crew member seriously injured?

M.4 Physical Damage

An example of physical damage is:

• real damage to either boat or crew

Examples of what is not physical damage are

• capsize with no damage, causing a loss of places

• rigs or lifelines entangled

M.5 Serious Injury

An example of serious injury might be an injury that required medical attention beyond minor aid but not necessarily hospitalization.
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 13 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by Brass



<p align="LEFT">M.3 Serious Damage


<p align="LEFT">This is not possible to define but a protest committee should ask:


<p align="LEFT">• was the performance of the boat or crew seriously impaired?


<p align="LEFT">• was the market value of the boat significantly diminished?


<p align="LEFT">• was a crew member seriously injured?




Given that they awarded redress because the performance of the boat was significantly diminished, you would have thought that it would have satisfied the definition of serious damage!
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 13 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by flaming

Given that they awarded redress because the performance of the boat was significantly diminished, you would have thought that it would have satisfied the definition of serious damage!
 
Where did 'they' (I presume you mean the jury) say the performance of the boat was 'significantly diminished'?
 
Significantly <g>
 
'Significant' is not the same as 'serious'
 
'significantly' can be considerably less than 'seriously'.
 
Less significantly
 
'diminished' is not the same as 'impaired'
 
'significantly diminished' is not the same as 'seriously impaired'.
 
The 'discussion' of the terms in the Judges Manual does not constitute a 'definition'. 


Edited by Brass - 03 Jul 13 at 11:37pm
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 13 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by GML

Don't know if the Tour de France a la Voile has changed the relevant rules, but the standard rules are as follows:
 
...
 
So on that basis it is possible, in theory at least, for both the at-fault boat to exonerate themselves by taking a 2-turn penalty and the damaged boat to be granted redress - there has to be physical damage because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 (affecting the score of the damaged boat) but the damage has to be less than "serious".
Extract from the SI (translation courtesy of Google Translate) shown below.
It doesn't appear to change rule 44.1( b ).
 
15 PENALTY SYSTEM
15.1 The first paragraph of RRS 44.1 is changed so that when a boat is
may have broken one or more rules of Part 2 or RRS 31 during a
incident while it is running, the penalty to be carried out after getting well clear of
other boats as soon as possible after the incident, is defined as follows:
1) when the boat is on a leg to a windward mark or to a
brand clearance, it should jibe and as soon as reasonably possible luff
to a close-hauled
2) when the boat is on a leg to a leeward mark or to
finish line, it shall tack as soon as reasonably practicable and Gliding
on a road to more than 90 ° of the true wind.
15.2 Jury Action on Water
a) If the jury sees an incident in which a RCV of Chapter 2, or RRS 31 or 49 is
violated, it may indicate his observations by a whistle showing a house
red. If the boat does not make it an offense penalty pursuant to IC 15.1, the
jury penalize the boat by a whistle and pointing a red flag in his
direction. In this case 15.1 IC no longer apply and the boat will perform designated
a penalty turn in accordance with RRS 44.2.
b) If the penalty is not carried out, the designated boat will be disqualified without instruction,
unless he files a claim against another boat, whose claim
result would likely allow to consider the application by the jury, the RRS
64.1 (a).
c) If the jury sees an incident in which a RRS Chapter 2 may have been breached
but it is not able to establish the facts to make a decision, it will send a
yellow flag with a whistle. The vessel or vessels considering breaking a rule
can then take a penalty pursuant to IC 15.1. The normal procedure
claim to land will remain applicable to this incident.
Sailing instructions of the Tour de France a la Voile - a round of the Championship of France Elite Race crewed ocean
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d) If a boat gains an advantage by breaking a rule despite a penalty
made, the jury may impose one or more penalties under a tower
RRS 44.2 pointing to a red flag in his direction with a whistle. The
boat will then perform one or more penalties, each penalty is indicated
by sending the red flag and a whistle.
e) A claim of jury under RRS 60.3 (a) (1) may be filed against a boat
involved in an incident that is the subject of an action of the jury on the water, if the jury finds
that this incident may have caused injury or serious damage.
f) The action or lack of action of the jury on the water can not give grounds for a request for
repair from a boat (RRS 62.1 (a)).
g) The vessel jury can be positioned at any point in the race area. Its position can not
give rise to a claim for compensation.
h) The normal procedure of claiming a boat race committee or jury remains
applicable for incidents that have not been the subject of an action of the jury on the water or with
resulted in sending a yellow flag by the jury.
15.3 Replacement penalties for breach of the rules other than those of Chapter 2:
A breach of the rules (with the exception of Chapter 2 of the RRS and RRS 28 and 31) may,
after instruction, be liable to a penalty which may go from one point to the disqualification.
15.4 Scale of penalties: This table gives the minimum penalty that the jury must apply
throughout the test, it can also increase the penalty to disqualification.
Offences Penalties minimum
15.4.1 Breach of Class Rules (other than
specified in this schedule)
1 point in the standings
15.4.2 Exiting the water or rocking the boat on the side
for repairs to the keel or any other reason
(AC 12.3 and 28.1 IC) but transportation between
Atlantic and Mediterranean and / or transport of
occurrence vessel from one stage to the other
3 points on the overall
15.4.3 Delay in Dunkirk (boat and / or set of sails) and
anchorage area assigned left without
prior written permission of the management
race (AC 8.1.1 and 8.4)
3 points on the overall
15.4.4 Except with the prior written permission of the management
race, non-participation in the prologue to
midlogues or postlogue (AC 7.3)
15 points in the overall standings
(This changes AC 7.3)
15.4.5 Except races coefficient 0 unless otherwise
granted by the race committee and the
race to a case of force majeure, lack
Embedded holds a survival training crew
ISAF or equivalent (AC 6.2.1)
3 points on the overall
15.4.6 Total incomplete crew (AC 6.2.2) by 10 points over teammate missing
the overall
15.4.7 Except races coefficient 0, total crew weight
exceeding 624 kg (AC 6.3)
3 points on the overall
(Per kilo)
15.4.8 Non-compliance with IC 7, 21.1.3 and 24 (dodgers,
race flags and stickers)
2 points on the overall
15.4.9 Except races coefficient 0, non-compliance
ISAF classification for amateur classification (AC
11.3)
Out of amateur rankings
15.4.10 Declaration of departure or arrival in non-delivery
the allotted time, no return to the race of the
tag (CI 12.8, 14.3 and 19.4.2)
2 points on the overall
15.4.11 Abandonment undeclared race committee (IC 19.1) 5 points on the overall
15.4.12 Failure VHF radio watch default ISA or
misuse of the ASN (IC 19.4.1)
5 points on the overall
15.4.13 Temporary loan of a spinnaker head (IC
21.2.3)
2 points per race where the spinnaker
replacement was shipped
15.4.14 New Sail (IC 21.2.1) 5 points on the overall
15.4.15 Unplumb said except wetting
Secondary (AC 8.3 and 23.2 IC)
2 points on the overall
15.4.16 Unplumb undeclared (CI 23.2) 5 points on the overall
Sailing instructions of the Tour de France a la Voile - a round of the Championship of France Elite Race crewed ocean
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15.4.17 Loss of primary wetting and / or secondary (IC
23.3)
5 points by wetting the
overall
15/04/18 No to price discounts (30.1 CI) except
exemption granted by the race
2 points on the overall
15.4.19 Failure images rushes supply (AC 20 and IC
29.2)
2 points on the overall
15.5 In amendment to RRS 44, the score of a boat penalized points is the score that would
received without this penalty, minus the number of corresponding points. However, it should
not receive fewer points than DSQ (except DNE and DGM).
15.6 A boat breaking a rule in more than one incident will receive a penalty for
each incident, but a ship can not receive a lower number of DSQ point (to
except DNE and DGM).
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote flaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jul 13 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by flaming

Given that they awarded redress because the performance of the boat was significantly diminished, you would have thought that it would have satisfied the definition of serious damage!
 
Where did 'they' (I presume you mean the jury) say the performance of the boat was 'significantly diminished'?
 
Significantly <g>
 
'Significant' is not the same as 'serious'
 
'significantly' can be considerably less than 'seriously'.
 
Less significantly
 
'diminished' is not the same as 'impaired'
 
'significantly diminished' is not the same as 'seriously impaired'.
 
The 'discussion' of the terms in the Judges Manual does not constitute a 'definition'. 

Well they give the damaged boat redress, as they felt the damage caused it's result to be materially altered.  So that must be significantly diminished right?

You only have to watch the replay of the race on the tracker to see just how slow they were downwind.

I was just very surprised at the result of the protest, as I had it as a nailed on that the at fault boat would get a DSQ from the leg.
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