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Muppets in Irons.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9828
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 4:26pm
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Topic: Muppets in Irons.
Posted By: G.R.F.
Subject: Muppets in Irons.
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 3:17pm
So today I've decided to name my boat, I'm going to call it Morphy Richards...

Probably the breeziest of races I've done on the sea and sure enough I'm in irons, the threshold is a bit higher than previous boats but with puffs of 20 mph today and a bit of a cross swell running I found my self in irons as the gun went after tacking onto the line, I managed to just get it going but it took ages to get momentum going, then after a great session dicing with my pal in his Phantom and my chum from the lake in his Laser, surfing excellent waves down the reaches, I head up at the bottom mark straight into irons on the harden up. Didn't even tack, it is so annoying drifting back downwind especially with a spring tide running, really irritating and it happened about half a dozen times, no sooner than I claw myself back a bit, I'm straight into irons, it seemed to happen more on one tack (tacking into the oncoming waves)than the other but it did occur on both tacks.

I've never really gotten to grips with what you're supposed to do, I think I've worked out a procedure now by pushing the boom out to bring the boat more side on, but there must be techniques to stop it happening in the first place, the two other boats that it used to happen earlier in the wind range both had centreboards, so just kicking them back a bit used to help, but this one has a dagger.

So what are the alleged techniques, I'm told sheet out more before the tack, dump the kicker, windward heel, I found  forcing myself to get right round and as far forward as possible helped, but that's quite a journey in the EPS, off the rail back down the boat round the turret then back up the other side and I'm wondering if it's being exacerbated by this new thicker sheet I'm using for the main, it doesn't exactly glide through the blocks so the main doesn't naturally sheet out as fast as it did with the old mainsheet.

Anyway, what does the hive mind have to say about irons, what are your tricks, a) for not going in in the first place and b) when it inevitably happens and c)What expletives help, I found Ef U Cee Kay totally useless no matter how much I uttered it.

Or am I expecting too much of my weight versus a 9.4 sail? I mean it didn't happen every time so it must be possible, I must have some technique flaw..


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Replies:
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 4:29pm
I still get stuck ocassionally, mostly when I'm trying to tack with a lack of momentum.  To get out of it I push the boom away to get the boat moving backwards then then push the tiller away so the the boat starts turning side on to the wind.  Then it's a case of carry on as normal.

The other thing you can do once you start turning backward is pull the boom towards you, past the centreline and pull the tiller twoards you so that you start bearing away and picking up speed.

Perhaps you were hardening up too much at the bottom mark and need to take a slightly wider line if it was happening every time.


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Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.


Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 5:13pm
a) you're right about sheeting out. I used to get it when I started with the 100 but I'm fine now. When the wind is up I'll sheet out loads, tack and then sheet out even more when I've got onto the otherside whilst trying to get windward heel to get the boat bearing away. Once moving start sheeting back in and head up.

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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 5:15pm
Ask any Topper squad'er, I think it goes something like push push pull pull. Some of ours are tiny, they seem to manage fine and they train in the sort of weather I wouldn't turn a dog outside.


Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 5:16pm
The 700 has this tendency, you had to dump the kicker, pull a Little daggerboard up if you dared and then do the push push pull pull method.




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Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 5:29pm
Always tack on the flattest bit of water.  It's worth waiting just a bit longer rather than to hit a stopping wave.  Let the boat heal to leeward so that it wants to tack naturally - weather helm, then tack.  Best to tack with the main uncleated so that you can overtack i necessary, get speed up, and then head up again.  For leeward roundings go in wide and come out tight keeping the speed on all the way round. If there is still a danger of getting into irons when tacking just hold the boom out to bring the bow round, works a treat when wearing round (cowards' gybe) Smile

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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
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[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 5:30pm
Loads and loads of downhaul. The windier it gets, the more the fullest part of the sail is blown aft, and the hrder is is to get the boat through the wind. So wack the cunningham on as hard as it will go.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 5:35pm
It basically means your allowing the boat to control you rather than vice-versa and therefore you are being a Southern pansy!

Graeme perhaps its just a side effect of Shandy drinking?

All singlehanded boats have this tendancy (although worse with fully battened mains) but it can easily be remedied by a couple of actions.
1. Pull on more cunningham, it pulls the draft forward on the mainsail and as you bring the power on there is less yawing moment driving the bow up into the wind
2. Keep the boat flat as you head up, as this maintains maximum rudder authority
3. Get you weight forwards

If you go into irons, then kicker off, as the boat starts going backwards push the tiller away until the boat starts to bear away, then aggressively heel to windward and a couple of sharp pulls on the tiller as you pull a bit of mainsheet in, keeping the windward heel and as the boat accelerates sheet on and haul the kicker back on.



Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 6:51pm
Does this mean I'll have to uncleat that mainsheet thing and risk a broken nail?

Have you seen what that nasty rope does to a girls hands? 

Gloves, I'll be needing gloves then, gloves to prevent ironing..

That kicker thing, it's quite a long stretch to reach it, so is that cunning lingual rope, not sure I want to fiddle with ropes once I'm out there, it seems such a manual thing to do, can see why Northerners would do it.

Rudder Authority, I do like the sound of that, will I need to shout?


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Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 6:57pm
Looks like Craigo and I disagree Smile

Let the boat want to tack and to hell with rudder authority!


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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 7:36pm
Rodney,

Graeme says that he got stuck in irons just trying to harden up around the bottom mark. He didn't want to tack!

But if you want to get through a tack in a boat prone to getting stuck in irons I would still not advocate too much leeward heel. Sure it will help drive the bow up into the wind, but any rudder movement when heeled will act like a brake as it tries to drag the transom down.
Your best bet is to just show the boat who is boss, pull some more cunningham on, and then go into the tack with the boat going as fast as you can. Uncleat the sheet but don't let any out. Push the tiller across and as the boat starts coming over on you leap to the other side easing about 6inches of sheet out as you get towards the far side. This should buy you a few seconds to get your lard out over the side and get the boat moving. Once the foils are attached then squeeze the main back on and pinch up to close hauled. If you feel the boat slowing too much as you move across the boat, let a bit more sheet run through your hand and keep the boat turning. You may end up well below close hauled but you should at least be moving and therefore able to then bring it up to close hauled.

In light airs I would advocate Rodneys method, in that it uses the hull shape to turn the boat and not the rudder, but in light winds you are unlikely to get stuck in irons coming out of the tack.


Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by craiggo

It 
2. Keep the boat flat

That's what I disagree with when going into the tack!  I already assumed that a man with GRF's talent would have max Cunningham?

Anyway I respectfully bow to my betters Smile




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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
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[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 8:45pm
Why don't you just read the instructions, for Christ's sake!

Everyone knows EPS's come with instructions, like all beginners' boats.

If you had a bleeding steam iron and used it without putting bleedin' water in it, would you seriously expect anyone to bleedin' sympathise with you if it bleedin' fried?!!! What are you like....!


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 11:55pm
Well this sort of problem must vary from boat to boat, so I'm interested in everyone's view, as with everything I've learned over the years I've been of an inquisitive nature regarding those of a sitting down whilst they sail attitude, they all do it different, everyone has a different or slightly different view of how to do things.

I'm no longer quite as naive and inexperienced as I was a couple of years back and I am told that anything without a jib will go into irons at some point if certain rules aint followed, having said that you don't often see Lasers in Irons so maybe that assertion (the jib thing) aint true, however, my threshold which used to be about 12-14 kts, has raised some with this boat, which has certain idiosyncrasies in all winds when it comes to tacking, it does have a propensity for stalling and I still have yet to work out why, I think it's to do with the full batten rig and the fact the mast swivels which delays the detachment of the flow going into and re attachment coming out of a tack, which is a bit of a bind in very light winds and clearly doesn't help much when it's windy, something I'm sure a soft entry would help, not that it used to help me with the Blaze, but then that was a bigger sail and the boat was altogether different with other factors in play.

So I like to hear lots of views, then think about them all and apply them to my peculiar situation and so far this thread has helped thanks to all of you, Rodney, the Finn about which I know very little and don't profess to, but i do know it has no foil on that useless bit of metal you use to stop it going sideways, so you would have to tack the way you suggest because the Finn obviously uses it's under hull shape as a foil so I take your advice in that knowledge, the EPS is a very shallow drafted boat if you do anything other than sail it flat those wing things dig in with negative effect and it's a long way round from one wing at the front down to the back around the turret then back up the other side, I have developed a bad habit of cleating the main as i go through to set up the transfer it works great on the Alto and most of the other jibbed boats, but not so on the EPS, which would benefit imv with off boom sheeting and being rid of that turret and gubbins in the middle but I haven't gotten round to sorting a decent take off point for rear sheeting and tbh until today it hasn't really been that much of a problem, it has never gone into irons on the lake, it's flat water, it's the waves that screw you up on the sea, tacking into an uphill has a habit of sending you backwards..

Anyway it's an interesting subject, the Contender Boys have the problem a lot and they are way more experienced than I at single handing, so I'm not to phased by it.


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Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 7:22am
Happens to us all somethime getting stuck in irons. Thing I hate is the rule 13 thing. Sods
Law says you end up in irons, look up and see several boats coming back down the course at you. It's your own fault and you have to keep clearbut you have no steerage. Even if they dont hit you, or shout protest if you the take turns you might as well retire?


Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 7:58am
Irons happens to the best of us
Push (the Boom) Push (the Tiller) or Pull Pull is what I was taught and is what I still use today
 
Even in the 5oh it only takes 10 seconds to get going again
 
 
What to do to stop it?
- Tack with conviction and stop pussy footing around.
- Drop the kicker off (boat specific as some need it others don't)
 
 


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When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss

Crew on 505 8780



Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 9:09am
Well something I can honestly say, it never happens in Sailboard racing, yet another example of why sailing sitting down is inherently wrong.Wink

Does it happen in Lasers? What about Coffins and Strokers? Is there a single single hander of which it can be said "it doesn't go into irons"? Those canoe things , they have a jib so I guess they are a bit more immune, then they must have other problems, imagine being in irons wondering which way to slide that seat thing...LOL


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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 9:16am
Originally posted by r2d2

Thing I hate is the rule 13 thing. Sods
Law says you end up in irons, look up and see several boats coming back down the course at you. It's your own fault and you have to keep clearbut you have no steerage. Even if they dont hit you, or shout protest if you the take turns you might as well retire?

Yes, that very thing happened, my newly arrived friend in a Laser another ex windsurfer retiring to a more sedate activity <sic> had to tack away on starboard on the lay line because I had no steerage and was drifting back down, so had he hit me or protested we were discussing in the showers after as i was bemoaning my lot in life as usual, I'd have had to do turns as well, hardly a fair and reasonable decision for what could be described as a yacht in distress.. I countered with the view that he and everyone else should have stopped racing, and come to my aid, that would be the gentlemanly thing.


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Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 10:45am
Hi Graeme,

I sail at a generally windy venue and it often happens to me in my Phantom.  I, too, have found the best way to solve the problem is to let off some kicker, let out some mainsheet, raise some centreboard and then do the push/push - pull/pull thing.  Even then, when it's honking, it doesn't always work and I finish up doing a 'three point turn' like I had to do when I had a Cat.

So far as relates to windsurfing, as you are well aware, in a dinghy you can't use your feet to push and pull the boat in order to turn it, like you can on a board, and have to rely on other skills, the rudder and kinetics.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)





Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 4:48pm
Lasers with old, blown out sails and the original controls, where it was very difficult to get much cunningham on, were very prone to it. Didn't have any trouble recently in one with good controls and a newish sail. Waves really are the killer, though, so timing the tcks becomes very important.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by iansmithofotley

Hi Graeme,

I sail at a generally windy venue and it often happens to me in my Phantom. 



Are you a bit light for it Ian, my chum who's not that much different skill wise to me, other than he has stuck with the Phantom for three years now where i tend to Boat hop a bit, boat tart that I am. Anyway he didn't stall once, didn't fall in either which he has been known to...




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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 4:59pm
My last highly infuriating stuck in irons situation was my sail in the RS100 prototype... until I remembered to lift the plate a bit and it bore off no issues with a bit of a boom grab and tiller waggle.

I have to say I agree with Rodney- if the boat lets you, use the hull as much as possible to do the tacking, but I can also sympathise with Craiggo- hull roll on an RS600 for example is just a no-goer; you need speed and determination tack one of those things.  I seem to recall the 300 didn't like too much roll either.   


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Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 5:02pm
I get it in the laser sometimes, just push the tiller one way, when its back on a close hauled course lean the boat with windward and pull the main in. The windward heel is essential to get the boat to bear away and get going again.


Posted By: vscott
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 5:49pm
Lifting the daggerboard will also make it easier to get out of irons - doesn't matter that is is a daggerboard, not a centreboard, it still helps get past the stage where you think you are bearing away but the boat just stops and goes back.

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Mk IV Osprey 1314 Think Again

Kielder Water Sailing Club


Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 9:44pm
Hi Graeme,

I am 5' 9" and have been 15 stones (95 kgs), or just less, for the past twenty five years.  I have had my Phantom for eight years. I am an average club sailor and get hammered at open meetings as I just don't have the knowledge, skills and ability to do well.  I have found that the Phantom sailors at open meetings, which I have attended, vary greatly in weight from around 13 stones to over 18 stones. It seems that the 'good' sailors can do well at most weights in that range.  The Phantom is a great boat and has the flexibility to adjust the rig, or choose the sails, according to the sailor's height, weight and ability, in the prevailing conditions.  

I have sailed in a lot of very strong winds at my club, over the years, and unless it is blowing a hooligan, I can usually survive. When I say 'survive', I can usually get around the race course but probably with a poor result. The boat is a 'handful', for me, once it gets over F3 - F4 but I still love the boat. I just enjoy the sailing and the racing.  As a late starter into sailing (mid thirties), and now, at my age, I know that I am unlikely to ever get any better.  I get my satisfaction from the racing and knowing that I have done my best.  I also sail at a great place in a beautiful area, along with a lot of very good sailors.

The Phantom, like a Laser, is not the boat for everybody as some people like kites and trapezes and say that they get bored with simple una-rigged boats, particularly downwind.  

I have been the only Phantom at my club for the past eight years except for a short period when a young 'giant' had one but hardly ever sailed at the club.  He has now sold it and sails elsewhere as he is away at university. As 90% of racing at my club is handicap racing I do find that I have no other boats to compete with, on the water, unless there are some RS 200's racing or a Finn (we only have one of those too).  We have a decent Laser fleet but they get their own separate start.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

Ian


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 18 Sep 12 at 10:03am
As everyone knows I am a congenitally useless sailor. Because of this when I tack I expect to over tack and end up sheeted out and off the wind. I then hike (sort of) , sheet in and try to point in the right direction. I have sailed fully battened boats (Byte and Solo) and never get in irons. It may be slow but not as slow as reversing in irons.


Posted By: pondscum
Date Posted: 24 Sep 12 at 7:13pm
This is the worst thing about sailing the 8.1 on a fluky pond. It goes backwards Sooo fast in anything over F3 ... it's difficult to steer it one way or the other. Tacking through a bigger angle is part of the solution.

As you weren't tacking, sounds like you were headed. Something else that happens all the time on the pond, have spent far too much time with the boat on top of me sitting in the water waiting for the reverse shift (or the more likely windward capsize). It's why the technique of easing out and not taking the full lift/gust is good .. when you are headed you can sheet in more.

I am reminded of the description of a tiny bunker at St Andrews - just big enough for an angry man and his niblick. Not that I golf.


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