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When to Gybe - Fast Asymmetric

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9810
Printed Date: 09 Dec 21 at 7:43am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: When to Gybe - Fast Asymmetric
Posted By: ellistine
Subject: When to Gybe - Fast Asymmetric
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 4:06pm
Starting to get the hang of the 800 lately but as always, as you get on top of the basics new problems arise.

At the weekend we had a great couple of windward/leeward races with the wind in the upper teens. Each time round however we gybed for the leeward mark at what looked about the right time (from a fairly long way out mind) and each time we would get headed and struggle to reach the mark invoking an early drop and a beam reach.

Now I appreciate it's probably the apparent wind kicking in and heading us down but what's the best way to maximise the apparent wind?  Put multiple gybes in to let the apparent knock you down as much as it likes at the expense of our slow gybes or carry on banging the downwind corner, attempting to compensate for wind/boat speed, picking that gybe time just right so you don't end up wasting the apparent wind header by constantly trying to get up to the mark?



Replies:
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 4:32pm
Sounds like you just need more time in the boat to sort the laylines out at different wind strengths. I would say itís always better to go earlier than you think when itís windy so when you get over to the leeward mark youíve got enough room to bear away drop and make a good rounding which will save you more time in the end. With practice youíll get a feel of where the mark should be to judge the layline. E.g when itís windy and your looking from the helm position under boom you might gybe when the mark is in line with leeward shroud and when very light it could be in line with the mainsheet (just examples) but I think its all comes with practice :)
Hope this helps
Alex


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Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 4:39pm
at least you guys are managing to gybe when you want to! - in the 100 on Sunday in similar conditions I got hit by a big gust, bore away eased the genny bore away some more, forgot to ease the main, gybed the main twice, world went all wobbly and then swimming :-)) 


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by r2d2

at least you guys are managing to gybe when you want to! - in the 100 on Sunday in similar conditions I got hit by a big gust, bore away eased the genny bore away some more forgot to ease the main and so gybed the main twice before swimming :-)) 
Good work! Generally we're not too bad on the gybes but I tend to come in early from the wire, check the lay lines then Gybe. At some point I'm going to have to man up and face the wire to wire gybe square on - which should make choosing the gybe point even harder, trying spot the mark through the main!


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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 4:56pm
I think it's generally harder to spot the laylines down wind than on the beat, because the course you make varies with the wind speed. so it's often a mistake to try to bang the corners exactly. Better to budget on at least two gybes.


Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by r2d2


at least you guys are managing to gybe when you want to! - in the 100 on Sunday in similar conditions I got hit by a big gust, bore away eased the genny bore away some more, forgot to ease the main, gybed the main twice, world went all wobbly and then swimming :-))†


I never adjust the main on a gybe. You need to be fully committed and give if a flick to encourage it to come over or you'll get the dreaded S's and the wobbles. It's easier with the baby rig

Alex

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Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 5:59pm
that's interesting - thanks Alex.  I was thinking that because I'd had the main and genny in before the gust hit when I then bore away the main gybed early because it was cleated fairly tight.  Anyway more practice needed :-))


Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 5:59pm
When we used sail the 5000 we always used the bouy coming out the back of the boom to be the right time to gybe back across but i do agree with the others i also used to gybe in the gusts to keep the speed up so perhaps try that ?

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Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 6:34pm
Strictly speaking I think your confusing your terminology, down wind you want to be on headers so you can bear off further and it is a lift that causes issues often being confused with a lull.

As to how you gauge it, same as upwind, tacking&gybing transits either pre determined with a practice beat/reach, or rough rule of buoy along boom if you have see through sails (although the danger of this is it varies according to apparent wind and windspeed), allowing room for manoeuvre, of course it always helps if you have a swinging pole if you've got it slightly wrong and have to soak a bit more.

We're lucky in that when it's breezy there's usually a friendly wave to help the gybe momentum so we don't lose to much speed and therefore angle, but it's always something you need to practise until you have the same sense as you do for laylines upwind...


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Strictly speaking I think your confusing your terminology, down wind you want to be on headers so you can bear off further and it is a lift that causes issues often being confused with a lull.
We are on headers. That's the trouble. We gybe for the mark, get a massive speed/apparent header and up having to 'fetch' the mark when I was expecting a good angle in. 


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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 6:48pm

gybe?

two more boat lengths

OK

we going then?

nah lets go further

we're going to overstand

...

GYBE

(everything goes smoothly because I can cope with these things)

we've overstood

ah well

GET YOUR WEIGHT OUT NOW IF WE'RE GOING TO SAIL AT THAT ANGLE


Is roughly what happens. Or he'll go on that first query anyway, and we'll have to put in a couple of short gybes at the mark/gate in force nuclear.



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-_
Al


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 6:54pm
I just bought a cheapy GPS tracker so it will be interesting to see how headed we get at speed - next time.

This is one of the downhill runs  http://youtu.be/PN8uuL5o6vc - http://youtu.be/PN8uuL5o6vc .


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Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by alstorer

gybe?

two more boat lengths

OK

we going then?

nah lets go further

we're going to overstand

...

GYBE

(everything goes smoothly because I can cope with these things)

we've overstood

ah well

GET YOUR WEIGHT OUT NOW IF WE'RE GOING TO SAIL AT THAT ANGLE


Is roughly what happens. Or he'll go on that first query anyway, and we'll have to put in a couple of short gybes at the mark/gate in force nuclear.

Yep. That's about it.


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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by ellistine

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Strictly speaking I think your confusing your terminology, down wind you want to be on headers so you can bear off further and it is a lift that causes issues often being confused with a lull.
We are on headers. That's the trouble. We gybe for the mark, get a massive speed/apparent header and up having to 'fetch' the mark when I was expecting a good angle in. 

Rule of thumb, under stand especially if its breezy, gives you room to bear off more, same as it often pays to under stand upwind, lots of people over stand the mark, better to understand and short hitch than over lay, both directions..

One thing I've noticed, not many dinghy sailors know their lay lines 


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Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by ellistine

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Strictly speaking I think your confusing your terminology, down wind you want to be on headers so you can bear off further and it is a lift that causes issues often being confused with a lull.
We are on headers. That's the trouble. We gybe for the mark, get a massive speed/apparent header and up having to 'fetch' the mark when I was expecting a good angle in. 

Rule of thumb, under stand especially if its breezy, gives you room to bear off more, same as it often pays to under stand upwind, lots of people over stand the mark, better to understand and short hitch than over lay, both directions..

One thing I've noticed, not many dinghy sailors know their lay lines 

+1


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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: jharvey
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 8:18pm
I used to use the bouy being near the back of the mainsail as a good guide in the 800, Windier you need to gybe earlier etc. If you arent making the bouy and need to head up a bit more dumping the kicker completely takes the power out of the main and helps to stay high.Then slowing the boat down by rolling the front of kite and healing a bit gets the aparant wind back a bit and is probably quicker than sailing faster downwind and then reaching back up to the mark.
 
 


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 11 Sep 12 at 8:32pm
 
Originally posted by G.R.F.


One thing I've noticed, not many dinghy sailors know their lay lines
 

We've got a pretty good idea (obviously it is a dynamic thing changing with the gusts, we're just really good at avoiding ever getting on it...



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-_
Al


Posted By: simsy
Date Posted: 12 Sep 12 at 1:03am
GRF's comments were pretty spot on. 

Easily done in the 800, is to single wire if you're under the lay for leeward mark. A lot of the fleet do it having sailed the boat for a long time (little while back), and just seen it done at the Nats at HISC, you will not lose a lot pace. I never normally roll the kite (in opposition to the post above), to try and make a mark/buoy. Sounds very counter intuitive, but oversheeting the kite and flogging the main, helps considerably I found and dropping to your knots (if you're not already there!).

Having looked at a few of your videos on YouTube, you could possibly benefit from trapezing slightly higher, on the transition out; then lowering yourself once you're out. Of the downwind footage I saw, you would probably benefit from locking both crew and helm into your footstraps for stability of steering for helm and sheeting (confidence) for crew, even though it looked fairly flat.

I recommend a copy of Higher and Faster too if you can get your hands on a copy!


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 12 Sep 12 at 9:01am
Originally posted by simsy

I recommend a copy of Higher and Faster too if you can get your hands on a copy!
Luckily I have it on DVD as had it been on VHS I would probably have worn it out by now! The 'Cockarocking' on the boat  is a bit of H&F homage. 

Interesting about going out on a higher trapeze setting. At the moment I'm finding the need to sit down and get the boat going again out of tacks before clipping on. The higher trapeze is then a bit awkward. I suppose the aim is not to sit down in the first place but just clip on and get out.


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Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 13 Sep 12 at 12:48am
You were probably just putting the boat through the gears. 
We came across  this affect when sailing the 5000. We noticed boats in same wind heading lower with the sails tighter and going faster, despite both boats twin trapezing. When we spoke to the richards brothers about it, the mention of downwind gears came up. Once you have born away on the gust, you head up sheet in looking for more apparent wind, as you sheet in you immediately have to bear away again, sails tighter and sailing lower and faster. In a heavy 5000 you had to do this 2 or three times to get max speed, but the difference was massive.
Gybing on the lay-line may be pushing you to go up the gears without realising it, so you end up sailing lower and faster than you had on previous gybe. Hence the early drop and the reach into the mark. Best that way than trying to soak low and slow at the end of the run. Try it next time you are out, never be satisfied with the apparent you have, look for more.

Andy


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Andy Mck



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