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Scrap the Nothe Course

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Olympic Sailing
Forum Discription: The top end racing in our sport
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9695
Printed Date: 21 Sep 20 at 8:23pm
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Topic: Scrap the Nothe Course
Posted By: 2547
Subject: Scrap the Nothe Course
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 9:15am
It's time to start a campaign to scrap that nothe course. 

The needs of the live spectators are destroying the integrity of the competition. 

Percy and Simpson were robbed and Ainslie was lucky Postma stumbled at the final hurdle..

Whilst the masses may be entertained by the place changing of a lottery race in fickle winds it certainly isn't pleasing to watch for anyone who knows anything about sailing. Excruciatingly nail biting maybe but certainly not pleasing. 

These athletes and support staff have given years of their lives to the pursuit of gold and the Olympic organisers owe them the fairest and most level playing field they can provide.

Not some horror show for the delight of the crowd. 



Replies:
Posted By: dogslife
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 9:27am
Couldn't agree more. I can see no reason why the entertainment of a couple of thousand spectators should be put ahead of what is supposed to be the pinnacle of competitive dinghy sailing. Once again the 'old farts' in the IOC & ISAF are letting the competitors down.

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Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 9:38am
Agreed; does any other sport make a non-sense of their events in this way?


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 9:44am
Just looked at the mark placings; on one beat Anslie went from 2nd to 9th ... and slater from 9th to 2nd ... those kind of changes just don't happen at that level unless the wind is wacky.
 
They binned off a 470W race yesterday which looked far more stable than that ...
 
Please don't make a lottery of our sport.


Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 10:04am
Just to be clear!  Most of the competitors expressed their doubts with regard to the wisdom of using the Nothe course at all for the reasons you have all mentioned.  As we all know ISAF knows best!!!

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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 10:11am
Originally posted by L192444

Just looked at the mark placings; on one beat Anslie went from 2nd to 9th ... and slater from 9th to 2nd ... those kind of changes just don't happen at that level unless the wind is wacky.
 
They binned off a 470W race yesterday which looked far more stable than that ...
 
Please don't make a lottery of our sport.


Ainslie was matching Jonas which was why he dropped down the leaderboard.... With everyone covering each other you can expect a lot of place changes.


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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 10:12am
Pretty sure Ainslie even criticised it post-race yesterday? In Athletics and Track Cycling, the tracks and stadiums have been carefully engineered to be as fast and fair as possible- the partial roof of the Olympic Stadium for example is designed to try to reduce the swirling winds that oft plague such venues. Whilst with sailing, they've gone out of their way to produce a course that's slow and random.

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-_
Al


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 10:44am
This is what others are making of it ....
 
http://vimeo.com/46824253 - http://vimeo.com/46824253
 


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 10:50am
Originally posted by rodney

Just to be clear!  Most of the competitors expressed their doubts with regard to the wisdom of using the Nothe course at all for the reasons you have all mentioned.  As we all know ISAF knows best!!!
 
Well it's time to stop this now and run some better racing ... it may have been a "good idea" at the time but the way this is unfolding as as per expectation of the sailors ... lets not make the sport look any more daft ...


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 10:53am
Originally posted by tgruitt

Originally posted by L192444

Just looked at the mark placings; on one beat Anslie went from 2nd to 9th ... and slater from 9th to 2nd ... those kind of changes just don't happen at that level unless the wind is wacky.
 
They binned off a 470W race yesterday which looked far more stable than that ...
 
Please don't make a lottery of our sport.


Ainslie was matching Jonas which was why he dropped down the leaderboard.... With everyone covering each other you can expect a lot of place changes.
Were we watching the same race ... looked like a loose cover to me with a big windshift and pressure change ... benefiting the other side of the course.


Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 11:02am
I've just written a piece on this at http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/165067/Between-the-rocks-and-a-hard-race - www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/165067/Between-the-rocks-and-a-hard-race


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 11:09am
Originally posted by Mark Jardine

I've just written a piece on this at http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/165067/Between-the-rocks-and-a-hard-race - www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/165067/Between-the-rocks-and-a-hard-race
A good item but its focus is on the medal race format rather than the course area which is under discussion here ... of course one componds the other.
 
Whilst the pro's and con's of the medal race are well known at least the implications of the medal race are not random they are known.
 
Racing on the Nothe course is making a mockery of the competition; they could stop this now and move the medal races to a better location.
 
The crowds on the Nothe can still gather and enjoy the atmosphere of watching together on the big screen just as people do on "murry mount" but lets not turn the sport into a farce.


Posted By: Teamvmg
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 11:17am
Yes, GBR are screwing it up so lets change the course!
 
I see we managed to re-seed the rowing lanes to get the Brits out of the windy side of the rowing course too.
 
C'mon, its the same for everyone, show some faith in our guys!
 
ISAF sailing on TV will die on its ar.. soon if it doesn't take a leaf out of the Extreme40 notice of race - look at the rubbish those guys put up with to earn their keep!


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 11:38am
Originally posted by Teamvmg

Yes, GBR are screwing it up so lets change the course!
 
Hardly a Gold and a silver from 2 events ... but this isn't about nationality it's about wanting to see the sailor who has sailed the best series win regardless of their nationality.
 
Probably the "right" result from the two fleets we have seen so far would have been a gold & silver but the other way around ...
 


Posted By: ASok
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Teamvmg

Yes, GBR are screwing it up so lets change the course!
 
I see we managed to re-seed the rowing lanes to get the Brits out of the windy side of the rowing course too.
 
C'mon, its the same for everyone, show some faith in our guys!
 
ISAF sailing on TV will die on its ar.. soon if it doesn't take a leaf out of the Extreme40 notice of race - look at the rubbish those guys put up with to earn their keep!

+1




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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 11:53am
Lets not turn this into a nationalistic debate that isn't the point ...
 


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 12:12pm
Any live coverage today?


Posted By: dogslife
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by 2547

Any live coverage today?

Freesat channel 156 - 12:45 - 18:30


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Posted By: dogslife
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Teamvmg

Yes, GBR are screwing it up so lets change the course!
 
I see we managed to re-seed the rowing lanes to get the Brits out of the windy side of the rowing course too.
 
C'mon, its the same for everyone, show some faith in our guys!
 
ISAF sailing on TV will die on its ar.. soon if it doesn't take a leaf out of the Extreme40 notice of race - look at the rubbish those guys put up with to earn their keep!

This is nothing to do with nationalistic bias, it's entirely to do with desire to see high quality competition where the final result is arrived at due to a competitor's skill and NOT how lucky they are.


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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 3:09pm
You know what? This sucks, and it's turning our sport in to a laughing stock!

I've just spent 4 days on the Nothe (Friday on-site, the other 3 in the cheap seats) and I LOVE the concept - the atmosphere, the view, the facilities are all brilliant. On the water, the course leaves plenty to be desired, as had been mentioned here.
It was interesting to notice that the Radial Medal Race course was set considerable further to leeward that others have been, with the windward mark in line (it appeared) with the viewing area. Is it just a coincedence that the Radials had the Medal Race competed for in a positive manner, with the action at the front of the fleet?

It really is stupid to expect non-sailors to understand not only the scoring system that can allow a chap with a hefty lead to lose it all in an instant, and another chap to "win" gold from being in almost last place. I understand that there is a place for "defensive sailing", but I'm certain that it's not what ISAF intended. If it is what they wanted and expected, then let's stop dicking about (and ruining the pinnacle of fleet racing) and introduce Match Racing in Lasers (or Fireflys).

*rant over*

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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 3:29pm
I'm just imagining what it would have been like trying to organise a medal kite course race on that courseLOL

They should order a special display event, with kites getting up drafted into the crowds.


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 4:21pm
How does she do with the showjumping scoring in the three day event. Or dressage? 


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 4:24pm
my 5 year old could understand the Tour de France where the winner may not even have won a single stage


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 4:35pm
Nothe course still playing snakes & ladders with the 49ers


Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 9:38pm
What's the matter with you all? A course with unpredictable gusts and windshifts? Sounds perfectly normal to me! What most of us mortals have to contend with! Personally, I'd have liked to see them having to keep raising their boards to clear weed off after every leg like the rest of us plebs!


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 10:43pm
Yup, fairer sailing at Frensham than on the Nothe. The 49ers would be truly entertaining at our place

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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 06 Aug 12 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by Xpletive

What's the matter with you all? A course with unpredictable gusts and windshifts? Sounds perfectly normal to me! What most of us mortals have to contend with! Personally, I'd have liked to see them having to keep raising their boards to clear weed off after every leg like the rest of us plebs!
 
Nah, if you're going to to gather the worlds greatest athletes of all sports, you get them to compete in the correct arena.
 
Millions have been spent designing an athletics stadium with an upper section that precludes the swirling winds associated with such structures, in order to aid the victories of the best (not luckiest) athletes.
 
They don't do the 100m heats in the stadium, then the Final in the local High Street.
They don't play the football semis at Wembley, then the final on a dried, cracked school playing field.
So why have the Medal Race on a course a quarter of the size deemed appropriate earlier in the week, in an area of unpredictable gusts and shifts?  If these conditions are acceptible then why didn't we have the Stars on Datchet, the Finns on Queen Mary and the Lasers at Wembley?
 


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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 6:48am

to be fair, they DID hold the cycling road race on the rough, potholed, nightmare that are the city and country roads of this country.

If they wanted "spectator friendly", they should have gone for King George reservoir- just up the road/railway from Stratford, "compact" and it would have been possible to put pedestrians all the way round it. Minor issue of the Ponders End tower blocks to the south west, but they could have either just coped, or taken it an as excuse to knock the things down...



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-_
Al


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 6:39pm
I can see why most of the olympians hate the Nothe course, as it is so alien to them.  It is tricky, there is no benefit in having a boat speed or boat handling edge, and all the normal tactics and strategy get turned on their head. Many think it is a lottery and should not represent the pinnacle of sailboat racing. There is, however, another way of looking at it - this is just another type of dinghy racing, possibly one that many of the Olympians are not that good at. Sailing in these conditions is not a lottery it just requires a different skill set to succeed. You could even argue that what they need is more of this type of racing so that the "random" element of the racing is negated, ( 4 double points races close in for the spectators). Shurely there are real sailing skills involved in dealing with such variable conditions, spotting gusts, windshifts, protecting your position on the race course. Just think of the English footballers that complained for years that penalty shoot outs were so random that they never even practiced them  and not surprisingly were cr-p at them. Why dont we go for it, and try to excel in these conditions, we should have a head start, with all the ditches and tiny reservoirs that we all learnt to sail on-we've got to able to show the rest of the world how to handle the light fluky and shifty stuff haven't we. In the next olympics we may even hear the competition complaining that," it went all light and flukey on the medal race and the brits won again!!"


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

.... variable conditions, spotting gusts, windshifts, protecting your position on the race course.
 
With legs lasting 2 or 3 minutes it's pretty much luck if you are on the right side of the leg ...


Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

.... variable conditions, spotting gusts, windshifts, protecting your position on the race course.
 
With legs lasting 2 or 3 minutes it's pretty much luck if you are on the right side of the leg ...
 
... which is exactly what's being said on the other thread about the Medal Races in general.


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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 9:53pm
Then there are folk who like courses like that, we used to call them good tactical sailors, lots of things going on, fast Oscillating shifts, steep course sides = possible wind bends, + tides, interesting that the good sailors that weren't otherwise distracted with messing each other up, still won.

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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 07 Aug 12 at 10:17pm
Quite.  Ditch the shyte that is the double-points medal race and we'll see far better racing.

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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 08 Aug 12 at 8:05am
Exactly my point! In the end the sailors with the skills required for the conditions on the race course come to the top, and the sailors that can't sort it out whinge. I learnt to sail in the lake district and if you think that its shifty on the Nothe course get yourself up to Bassenthwaite for Bass Week on right now, and have a go there. Its funny but the same people go on winning there- " How do they manage that then?"


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 08 Aug 12 at 8:59am
I suspect some on here don't really understand what they have seen.

In many cases there has been one permanent (in the context of the leg) wind feature be it a big shift or pressure change. In that context it's just luck who gets what. 




Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 08 Aug 12 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

Exactly my point! In the end the sailors with the skills required for the conditions on the race course come to the top, and the sailors that can't sort it out whinge. I learnt to sail in the lake district and if you think that its shifty on the Nothe course get yourself up to Bassenthwaite for Bass Week on right now, and have a go there. Its funny but the same people go on winning there- " How do they manage that then?"

+1Clap


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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 08 Aug 12 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

Exactly my point! In the end the sailors with the skills required for the conditions on the race course come to the top, and the sailors that can't sort it out whinge. I learnt to sail in the lake district and if you think that its shifty on the Nothe course get yourself up to Bassenthwaite for Bass Week on right now, and have a go there. Its funny but the same people go on winning there- " How do they manage that then?"

Possibly because they're better sailors... but you can't rule out the possibility that all olympic sailors know about windshifts, the importance of sailing in the pressure etc, and at that point it becomes a lottery. 


Posted By: David Villiers
Date Posted: 08 Aug 12 at 8:07pm
Those of us who heard Rod Carrs admission at a dinner at HISC Last winter; that the regatta was not about the competitors but the media and the resultant Medal Race Course stuck in a corner on unpredictable shifting and erratic winds and tidal swirls were not disapointed in our gloomy predictions. The five ring circus is now an expensive luxury our sport cannot afford.
 
At the press conferences after the races, non of the first three in either The Star or Finn classes said anything but; "that it was no way to run any yacht race let alone the Medal Race of an Olympic Regatta".
 
Jaques Rogge; who is a yachtsman should be ashamed, so should those who allowed the IOC to bully them.
 
Having said that just look at the Star easily (Since the removal of The Dragon after 1972.) The most elegant boat in the Olympics with so far the highest standard just look at the Gold Stars on the sails of many of the competitors signifying they had won a Star World Championships and the number of Olympic medal holders in the fleet.
 
No one can say if the results would have been different if the races had been held out at sea where they should have been but one can say that the results would have had more authority.
 
Putting the course where it in no way improved the Television Coverage; it was not as good as Qindau, Athens or any regatta back to Barcelona, the commentary frankly condesending.
 
Another thing one nation one boat? It doesn't seem to worry anyone that the 100 metre final on the track was dominated by Afro Caribeans with ranking in the International Classes it would not be difficult to let the top 40 attend.
 
The BBC commentary seemsto begetting better or are we just used to it?
 
It is not the ISAF or at least it is but only in allowing the IOC to bully them, if not being an Olympic Sports is the price we pay for decent racing in decent boats then so be it.





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David Villiers-Child


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 08 Aug 12 at 11:16pm
IOC decides number of competitors - sailing's hard limit is 380. That's not a number that's going to go up. Very unlikely 10 medal limit will go up either. 

One boat per country also for rowing. Plenty of other sports as well, IIRC. 


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 09 Aug 12 at 12:03am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Then there are folk who like courses like that, we used to call them good tactical sailors, lots of things going on, fast Oscillating shifts, steep course sides = possible wind bends, + tides, interesting that the good sailors that weren't otherwise distracted with messing each other up, still won.

I fear you don't have a handle on what has been going on Confused


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 09 Aug 12 at 8:57am
I spent yesterday afternoon sat on the (free) boulders in front of the Nothe course. Being there drove home in a way the TV does not how short the medal race courses are and how variable the wind.

I don't really have a problem with that for the Women's Match Racing because the boats don't split across the course anyway and it's a best-of-five format so luck tends to balance out.

But if you've got to have a double-points no-discard medal race, this is no place to run it. No self-respecting class would allow its Nationals to be run in a locate like the Nothe course.


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 09 Aug 12 at 9:13am
Originally posted by L192444

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Then there are folk who like courses like that, we used to call them good tactical sailors, lots of things going on, fast Oscillating shifts, steep course sides = possible wind bends, + tides, interesting that the good sailors that weren't otherwise distracted with messing each other up, still won.

I fear you don't have a handle on what has been going on Confused

There there, no need to be scared sonny, I've got a handle on it, and like they say, it's the same for everybody.Smile 


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Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 09 Aug 12 at 9:46am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by L192444

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Then there are folk who like courses like that, we used to call them good tactical sailors, lots of things going on, fast Oscillating shifts, steep course sides = possible wind bends, + tides, interesting that the good sailors that weren't otherwise distracted with messing each other up, still won.

I fear you don't have a handle on what has been going on Confused

There there, no need to be scared sonny, I've got a handle on it, and like they say, it's the same for everybody.Smile 
... yes it is the same for everyone ... sh1te ... once you have grasped some understanding of racing tactics you may get it. Perhaps it's worth you doing some sailing events to learn a bit more, I saw you made a start with a last (almost) at the RS100 Nationals LOL
 
 



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