Print Page | Close Window

A few RS600 questions

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9263
Printed Date: 07 Jul 20 at 2:22am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: A few RS600 questions
Posted By: Jaws
Subject: A few RS600 questions
Date Posted: 26 Apr 12 at 11:15pm
I've often found that the main halyard on the RS600 slips about 5 inches over the course of a sail. At the moment, it's held in place by a short Clamcleat riveted to the mast. Ideally, I'd like to add another Clamcleat, but adding it to the mast would require riveting it to carbon, unless it can be fastened any other way. Are there any other options? I've thought perhaps leading it to a block on the base of the mast and then to a cleat on the deck, but with a rotating mast that might affect how far I can get the boom out downwind. I'm going to replace the rope too, but the cleat simply isn't substantial enough to hold the halyard when I crank on the cunningham, making chop really tough.

Should I replace the halyard with the Kevlar stuff LDC sell or just use Excel Racing or equivalent?

I'm going to add a continuous kicker and cunningham this year. Is it best to lead the cunningham across the foredeck like I've seen on some boats, and if so why? 

I've often had trouble gybing, any tips?

Finally, any recommendations for a mainsheet ratchet block? I'm probably selling the 29er soon, so I can't use the ratchet block off that. I've used a Ronstan 60mm up to now, brilliant block but can sometimes stick upwind and really expensive to buy new. 

Thanks


-------------
RS600 794



Replies:
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 26 Apr 12 at 11:27pm
are you allowed halyard locks?

-------------
John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: TomB
Date Posted: 26 Apr 12 at 11:41pm
What i would do is hoist the sail to the top of the mast and cleat the halyard and then crank on the cunno. i would then release the cunno and pull the main back up to the top. usually works pretty well, but if your halyard is stretchy then that definitely isnt helping.
for ratchet, harken 40mm or 57 mm carbo ratchet thingy is pretty darn good
 


-------------
49er 884
"its win or swim attitude boys" -awesome aussie skiff commentator


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 7:41am
IF i were you i would add another small cam cleat just below the existing one so you actually have two cleats on the mast for the halyard to run through.  I would also replace the halyard and as Tom says above raise the sail and crank a bucket of cunno on to really lock it off before sailing, if it drops do the same process again to tafe out the slop.

-------------



Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 8:10am
also you could splice a bit of rope inside of the halyard to fatten it up where it goes through the cleat 

-------------
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 9:42am
The problem is, once the cunningham's on it's nearly impossible to pull it any further up. Regarding adding another cleat, how could I do that? It's a carbon mast, so I'd be a bit nervous about riveting or screwing, and I can't think of what else to do with it.

Looking through the class rules, no mention of halyard locks is made so I don't think they're class legal.


-------------
RS600 794


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 9:55am
I would ask the RS600 yahoo group, or do a search within it for pre-tensioning.

Neptune might be able to help  

You'll need to spend good money on the halyard and LDC have tried and tested the best for each application on their boats, so it would be a tad silly to go elsewhere unless you're planing on experimenting.  

Also you need to check you've not got too much forestay tension on, as I found this caused all sorts of undesirable rig characteristics when I used to 'whack it on' as I knew no better.


-------------



Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 10:03am
I wouldn't worry about adding another cleat to a carbon mast, just buy some carbon rivets from any decent chandler.  I had it on my Phantom and it worked well.
 
Regards the cunningham, you pull the main to the top of the mast.  then pull a truck load of cunno on, then release the cunningham and pull up the slack on the halyard.  At a guess i would say this is standard practice for 600's, but that is just a guess.
 
You can just about see what people do on this picture here of a phantom (think its Jimbo's boat he may be able to find a bigger version of the pic)


-------------



Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 10:09am
wow that's a lot of control lines for an una-rig, what do they do? i never noticed them on a friends when i sailed it, beautiful boat

-------------
John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 10:18am
I guess the first question is what's going on with the halyard. We can be confident that the standard system is potentially adequate, because everyone else uses it.
Next time you sail take an indelible marker pen and mark the halyard at the cleat when raised. If the halyard is slipping then most likely your cleat is worn and needs replacing. If the halyard is not slipping but stretching then different rope or technique would make sense.


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 10:32am


-------------



Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 10:41am
Phantoms make me want to start eating pies and take the hit on mid life obesity, 

-------------
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Ruscoe

I wouldn't worry about adding another cleat to a carbon mast, just buy some carbon rivets from any decent chandler.  I had it on my Phantom and it worked well.
 
Regards the cunningham, you pull the main to the top of the mast.  then pull a truck load of cunno on, then release the cunningham and pull up the slack on the halyard.  At a guess i would say this is standard practice for 600's, but that is just a guess.
 
You can just about see what people do on this picture here of a phantom (think its Jimbo's boat he may be able to find a bigger version of the pic)


Having just had a carbon mast repaired i needed to cut a hole for a terminal back plate to rivet on to it. I've spoken to two riggers (one is one of the biggest in the uk) and they both gave a quizzical look when i asked for carbon rivets. What are they? they asked, we just use standard rivets.
You need to make sure that there is plenty of duralac all over anything metal to stop electrolysis. Which happens on any two metals.


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 11:14am
Originally posted by ham4sand

wow that's a lot of control lines for an una-rig, what do they do? i never noticed them on a friends when i sailed it, beautiful boat

kicker, cunningham and outhaul.  I understood those, I think anyway.

iirc, the other two are lowers adjusters and forestay adjusters.  TBH, short of letting off the forestay on a dead run, I didn't really know or understand the finer details.  

For an average club racer they certainly weren't all necessary, immediately anyway, and you'd probably be far better to cleat them off on the P&B (Andy Couch/Si Childs) settings and get on with the sailing the race with your head out of the boat. 


-------------



Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 11:51am
Having just had a carbon mast repaired i needed to cut a hole for a terminal back plate to rivet on to it. I've spoken to two riggers (one is one of the biggest in the uk) and they both gave a quizzical look when i asked for carbon rivets. What are they? they asked, we just use standard rivets.
You need to make sure that there is plenty of duralac all over anything metal to stop electrolysis. Which happens on any two metals.
 
http://www.ldcsailing.com/carbon-rivet-5mm-each.ir?cName=boat-parts-multi-class-hardware-fastenings-bolts-screws-rivets-pins-etc-rivets - http://www.ldcsailing.com/carbon-rivet-5mm-each.ir?cName=boat-parts-multi-class-hardware-fastenings-bolts-screws-rivets-pins-etc-rivets
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167032 - http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167032
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167033 - http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167033
 
I believe they are designed not to crush the carbon.....


Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 12:19pm
Will those be ok to use with a pop rivet gun, or does a better system need to be used to avoid cracking the carbon as you rivet it? Do carbon rivets still need anti-electrolysis products?

Thanks


-------------
RS600 794


Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 12:21pm
you will struggle with a standard gun and will prob need a sissor gun

-------------
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 12:22pm

Carbon rivets are not rivets made of carbon, Ian is quite right they are designed to not crush the carbon fibers.  P&B sell them!

 

As for the Phantom the controls will be the 3 obvious ones (kicker, Cunno, outhall) and lowers and rig/forestay.  Adjustable lowers were are not always needed, but the idea is in big wind you drop off the forestay and crank on the lowers. Basically you are raking the rig back.  In those kinds of winds you are using plenty of kicker so tightening the lowers helps keep the lower part of the mast from distorting under the kicker tension.  The Phantom is a powerful boat and is very hard work in big breeze, raking your rig a la above makes things a whole load easier.  The rig system above (on James boat) works fantastically well.



-------------



Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 12:35pm
One or two RS600 sailors use a 2:1 halyard, which is legal.
The rest think it's not macho or something.
It works a treat, just like on the RS400, RS800 etc etc. Less load on the cleat so no slippage. You can preload the halyard enough so the stretch is taken out, the sail goes right to the top and stays there, even with full cunningham.


Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 1:01pm
Does a 2:1 halyard involve the halyard exiting the top the mast, going through the eyelet at the head of the sail (or through a shackle that attaches to the sail) and then terminating at the mast? I've never actually come across one before, although I've often heard them mentioned.

-------------
RS600 794


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 1:02pm
If you do add a second clamcleat it would be worth getting the darker anodised version rather than the silver painted version. They should last longer and give it bit more bite.

-------------


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Ian29937

Having just had a carbon mast repaired i needed to cut a hole for a terminal back plate to rivet on to it. I've spoken to two riggers (one is one of the biggest in the uk) and they both gave a quizzical look when i asked for carbon rivets. What are they? they asked, we just use standard rivets.
You need to make sure that there is plenty of duralac all over anything metal to stop electrolysis. Which happens on any two metals.
 
http://www.ldcsailing.com/carbon-rivet-5mm-each.ir?cName=boat-parts-multi-class-hardware-fastenings-bolts-screws-rivets-pins-etc-rivets - http://www.ldcsailing.com/carbon-rivet-5mm-each.ir?cName=boat-parts-multi-class-hardware-fastenings-bolts-screws-rivets-pins-etc-rivets
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167032 - http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167032
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167033 - http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167033
 
I believe they are designed not to crush the carbon.....

the point is that standard rivets will do the job, they won't crush carbon (if its made properly) the issue is with metals reacting and in this case standard seasure rivets are fine (according to Rig Magic + other riggers we asked) lots of duralac....to stop electroylisis


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by fudheid

standard rivets will do the job, they won't crush carbon (if its made properly)

Not so. There are issues are with how the rivets are used, not how the laminate is laid up. For example the hole for the rivet must be exactly to size, otherwise there will be damage.


Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 1:45pm
All i do with mine is pull as hard as you can to the top the tie off just after cleat just below the boom and it works a treat i had my cleat fall off in one race and the main stayed up

-------------
Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by fudheid

standard rivets will do the job, they won't crush carbon (if its made properly)

Not so. There are issues are with how the rivets are used, not how the laminate is laid up. For example the hole for the rivet must be exactly to size, otherwise there will be damage.

Only passing on the wisdom of one of the biggest riggers in the country. He uses standard rivets, had never heard of 'special' carbon rivets. Thought i was taking the mickey!
I'm not a rigger but went to see them to ask about it, was a job a fairly pracitical person can do you just need duralac, be careful making the holes and then cover everything liberally with duralac.
Obviously if my mast fails here i will eat my wordsLOL


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 8:31pm
Back when I campaigned my 600, the standard practice for halyards was as follows:
1:1 Kevlar halyard.
1) Pull the main to the top of the mast.
2) where the halyard exits the mast tie a loop in the tail.
3) run the tail down around the boom bolt and back up and through the loop that you tied.
4) pull as hard as you can on the tail.
5) undo the loop and stow the halyard tail.

This method allows you to get sufficient tension in the halyard to take out all the stretch in the halyard, and also induce a little pre-bend in the mast.

If after this the sail slips down with cunningham use, then your cleat needs replacing.

The alternative to the method above is to hoist the main to the top and then tie the cunningham tail to the halyard tail and use the cunningham system to pre-load the halyard.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 12 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by Jaws

Does a 2:1 halyard involve the halyard exiting the top the mast, going through the eyelet at the head of the sail (or through a shackle that attaches to the sail) and then terminating at the mast? I've never actually come across one before, although I've often heard them mentioned.

It runs through a forged shackle at the head of the sail, so you just shackle it on. Securing it to the top of the mast varies from mast to mast, on my 400 it is threaded through a hole drilled the masthead casting. Other people put the end through a p-clip on the masthead sheave spindle and tie a knot in it. You have to watch for chafe, and maybe chop a couple of inches off every few months to lose the worn bit. I use a spectra halyard, excel racing.
If you get the right size shackle, the main will go up just as far as tying it on 1:1, at least on my boat.

The other thing on the 600 is getting the kicker slack enough to not have any leach tension when you are trying to hoist. The cascade lengths need to be exactly right because the rules only allow a 2x2x2x2 cascade.


Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 28 Apr 12 at 1:01am
Originally posted by fudheid

Originally posted by Ian29937

Having just had a carbon mast repaired i needed to cut a hole for a terminal back plate to rivet on to it. I've spoken to two riggers (one is one of the biggest in the uk) and they both gave a quizzical look when i asked for carbon rivets. What are they? they asked, we just use standard rivets.
You need to make sure that there is plenty of duralac all over anything metal to stop electrolysis. Which happens on any two metals.
 
http://www.ldcsailing.com/carbon-rivet-5mm-each.ir?cName=boat-parts-multi-class-hardware-fastenings-bolts-screws-rivets-pins-etc-rivets - http://www.ldcsailing.com/carbon-rivet-5mm-each.ir?cName=boat-parts-multi-class-hardware-fastenings-bolts-screws-rivets-pins-etc-rivets
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167032 - http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167032
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167033 - http://www.sailboats.co.uk/productinfo.aspx?productID=167033
 
I believe they are designed not to crush the carbon.....

the point is that standard rivets will do the job, they won't crush carbon (if its made properly) the issue is with metals reacting and in this case standard seasure rivets are fine (according to Rig Magic + other riggers we asked) lots of duralac....to stop electroylisis
 
The only point I was making in response to the "What are they? they asked" comment, was that they do indeed exist....


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 28 Apr 12 at 2:06am
interesting practical thread.  Any RS100 sailors here to describe the main halyard hoisting process for the 100?  how much mast pre-bend do you induce with the halyard before putting any cunno on?  Do you use these 2:1 loop methods? etc 

by the way RS supplied standard (4mm I think) rivets to retro fit to the 100 carbon mast - they were / are fine but were on the limit of what could be done with a cheap non-scissor rivet gun 


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 28 Apr 12 at 10:03am
The 100 has a cleat for the main halyard at the top of the mast, then the long tail is outside the mast and is secured to a bungy elastic. Therefore you only have about 10cm of halyard under tension. So little chance of any stretch in the halyard.
 
So I hoist the sail with no cunningham or kicker tension at all. I always make sure they are freed off as I hoist.


-------------
Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 29 Apr 12 at 9:29pm
Jaws,
 
Thats probably not all slippage - thats you pulling the slack out the halyard when you pull on the cunningham.  You really need to pre-tension the halyard on a 600 as they use windsurferish levels of cunningham once the breeze is up.  The main halyar cleat should be one of tehse http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleat_details.asp?theid2=30 - http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleat_details.asp?theid2=30  - I'd personally go for teh hard annodized one as it lasts longer.
 
A couple of ways to do it:
 
1) Tie a loop on the halyard below teh cleat once you think the sail is up and then run teh tail under the boom jaw and back though teh loop and pull hard - you'll probably get most of those extra inches.
 
2)  Tie the main helyard to the cunningham and pull hard to get that extra main halyard tension - your really mashing the mainsail head in to the mast now. 
 
3) use a windsurfing style grip cclamcleat and use some good old body weight  ( http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleats.asp?theid=35 - http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleats.asp?theid=35 )
 
All those will work, No. 3 will be sufficient with a Kevlar halyard or somethig equally low stretch (creap), but remeber to geep moving that knot at the top every other weekend.
 
No.2 followed by No.1 are probably most popular but getting theknot out the halyard can be a right pig.  Some people now carry opposing clamcleat connected by a short strop - same cleat as the main halyard mast cleat, so you slot the main halyard in one and the cunning ham into the other.
 
Again with all these keep moveing teh halyard knot or your'll end up breakign the halyard, normally when your on your victory lap and round the bottom mark to pull a load of cunningham on.
 
We strated leading teh continuous cuningham over teh fordeck as its already a potential spagetti mess running along teh wings and seems to work well.  You don't NEED a continuous one, but it does make life easier.  Definatly a continuous kicker though!
 
Gybing - speed, the more the better.    You'll need to steer a s-curve through teh gybe so you don't come out too hot or you'll just chuck it in.  Practice really as teh 600 is a much easier boat to gybe than tack.  Some say you should have a little kicker on for teh gybe, but i only did that when it was approaching 20 knots, just make sure you control the mainsheet trhough the gybe by holding all the falls in your hand.
 
Ratchet block - what ever takes your fancy, something around 60 odd mm should be fine - you don't need and autoratchet so that will save some costs - I used a 57mm hharken job for 3 hard seasons and it was still perfect when i sold the boat.  I found finding a mainsheet you like made the biggest difference.  If the mainsheet is too heavy then you are not using enough kicker and cunningham!
 
The Yahoo groups are being phased out as all the RS classes are getting new websites.  The new forum can be found on RS600.org.
 
Cheers
Neptune


-------------
RS300 and RS200, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 30 Apr 12 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by Contender443

The 100 has a cleat for the main halyard at the top of the mast, then the long tail is outside the mast and is secured to a bungy elastic. Therefore you only have about 10cm of halyard under tension. So little chance of any stretch in the halyard.
 
So I hoist the sail with no cunningham or kicker tension at all. I always make sure they are freed off as I hoist.

thx for the reply - so do you induce any mast bend with the main halary then or does this only come once the cunningham is attached?


Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 30 Apr 12 at 7:16pm
Thanks for all the replies everyone. 

-------------
RS600 794



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com