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Why Fleet Racing will always suck ...

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Category: Dinghy classes
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Topic: Why Fleet Racing will always suck ...
Posted By: G.R.F.
Subject: Why Fleet Racing will always suck ...
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 1:37pm
For the thinking man that is.


Now before I go getting accused of no experience for many years the windsurfing world followed the dinghy model because it was predominantly marketed by ex dinghy types, so the Windsurfer which was our equivalent of the Laser saw big number regattas to the point it had to split into four weight groups and at Worlds you would still get three figure numbers per group on the line.

But the one thing that I've found to be the principle difference between windsurf racing and dinghy racing is that there are more ways for the helm of a windsurfer to overcome his body limitations than there appear to be with a dinghy.

The sad fact is, assuming you get to be good to the point your tactics are spot on, your boat/board handling is up to speed, you will never be able to overcome the two facts about yourself that define whether you can win or lose in a given condition, and they are your height and your weight.

If all the equipment is identical and you are not permitted to change anything either by the use of your brain or your chequebook, then your results will always be defined by the windspeed in relation to the hull volume/sail area and its ability to propel your body weight.
Lighter will always be faster down wind, and taller will be faster upwind. Lighter will be faster in low wind and heavier will be faster in stronger winds, not much you can do about it.

Now in windsurfing there were tricks one could develop to overcome some aspects of your height & weight (or lack of it). No point going into them here, but I'd be interested to know if there is anything (other than having to design something specific) a light short bloke could do to perform in strong wind against a tall heavy bloke and vice versa. (If you'r short and fat, sorry your fecked)

Which is why if as I suspect it is, sailing boats of exactly the same design is a pointless activity (Once you've learned all there is to know about sailing of course, i recognise its use in the early stages).

Unless as usual I'm wrong of course....Wink


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Replies:
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 1:42pm
In my experience some of the more modern boats have a very wide weight range- the MPS world champions have sub-70kg guys right up to the 90+kg guys in its relatively short history.  This is down to tuning range and modern development iirc.

Many of the A Rig 300 sailors have moved up to the B rig once weight equalisation was effectively dropped.  Again it seems to be a class where the weight variation is relatively wide compared to say a Laser which seems fairly limited to the 75-82kg range.

The Blaze folks report a good weight range- you enjoyed one yourself and at the other end of the spectrum there are some bigger guys in it.

Even the older classes have some benefits with lipstick- the Solo and Phantom offer sail and mast configurations to suit weight.

As for a trolling thread, hat's off Graeme... but 19 boats out enjoying the sailing back at DWSC this week on a windless, post work jount, in probably one of the most annoying boats there is, proves that fleet racing must have some appeal ;-)




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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 1:58pm
I don't think this is really true in two person boats. Look at the top guys in the Merlins. They vary quite in bit in size. Likewise in the RS400'.
At club level, I find it's swings and roundabouts. I prefer to sail with a lighter crew. The big 2 bloke teams will sail over me on a tight windy reach, but I may have an edge in marginal planing and can plane deeper downwind. If I get the shifts right!
If you want perfect equality, you either have to get into weight equalisation, buy a leadmine or take up radio control boating. All good fun options, but I'll stick with the drawbacks of fleet racing hiking dinghies. Most of us have bigger problems than our weight, unless we are in completely the wrong boat.


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 2:04pm
FWIW there is some truth in this, at the extreme ends of weight/hieght and boat/rig combinations there are body types with which even the most skilled would find it hard to be competitive in certain conditions.

IMO these days we understand a lot more about techniques and the application of technology in terms of making a much wider range of crew sizes & weights competitive; for example, I'd be willing to bet that BA is below the weight considered 'optimal' when even Ian Percy won his medal in the Finns and Giles Scott is a very different build from BA so obviously, at this very, very high level, there is enough scope in technique and <legal> technology to make a difference.

Fleet racing is great BTW, just pays not to get too an@l about the details, you know you've gone too far when you're measuring, calibrating and re-splicing your L*ser hiking strap lines!


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by rogue

 
The Blaze folks report a good weight range- you enjoyed one yourself and at the other end of the spectrum there are some bigger guys in it.


I did indeed and am looking for another for light days so I can go and kick his ass in light weather, for no matter how good he starts which way he goes, in light winds I shall be faster than him, and when it's windy the opposite will be true, precisely why I don't want the same ole same ole, had it most of my retired from serious competition life, (In the height of physical fitness and fully race fit it would be a different story) if it's light I win if its windy they do, unless (in windsurfing) it is so fecking windy everyone is compromised then my experience would cut in, I suspect this would be true of some of the more 'energetic' classes.

I proved it to myself that time I took a laser out, off the line I beat our resident hotshot, just got a better start, upwind he came through me like a knife through butter, it being quite breezy, downwind I reeled him back in by emulating his sailing stance and my light weight paid, upwind it was game over, so nothing more than a procession which fleet sailing becomes, unless you're very fit and can effectively apply kinetic assistance shall we say.

So fleet racing if you want to win stuff is the province only of the race fit, the rest of us should fiddle with our cheque books and dream of bimbling a better result in the boat park, which I suspect is what happens the country over...


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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

So fleet racing if you want to win stuff is the province only of the race fit, the rest of us should fiddle with our cheque books and dream of bimbling a better result in the boat park, which I suspect is what happens the country over...

as opposed to flexing plastic on the next new thing promising to revolutionise it all with different rigs, racks that move, different handicaps etc only to find that you're bumbling along on your own or in a 'fleet' of other miracle cures- nothing for comfort or even the slightest hope of a performance assessment other than that fecking bleeping from your countdown timer you don't know how to switch off...

no thanks, I think I'd rather take a Laser and accept I'm sh*te in lightwinds.


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Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 4:17pm
Which is why some of us like development classes - more room to tune the rig to suit you, your sailing style, your weight, your favoured conditions, and  have different shape boats that carry different weights, suitable for different conditions, different wind strengths, but they all go more or less the same speed in the end - if you get it right Wink.
And if it's not comfy to sail or the fittings aren't right or whatever - just get the jigsaw out and chop it / fill it / pad it .


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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by I luv Wight

Which is why some of us like development classes - more room to tune the rig to suit you, your sailing style, your weight, your favoured conditions, and  have different shape boats that carry different weights, suitable for different conditions, different wind strengths, but they all go more or less the same speed in the end - if you get it right Wink.
And if it's not comfy to sail or the fittings aren't right or whatever - just get the jigsaw out and chop it / fill it / pad it .

And it's a fantastic option for diversity on the sport- it's all part of the competitive process in development classes, it's something I genuinely admire, but have neither the time nor skill to apply LOL  The point here is that even in development classes it's STILL fleet racing- none of that clocking ticking nonsense against arbitrary values no one agree with.  


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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by I luv Wight

Which is why some of us like development classes - more room to tune the rig to suit you, your sailing style, your weight, your favoured conditions, and  have different shape boats that carry different weights, suitable for different conditions, different wind strengths, but they all go more or less the same speed in the end - if you get it right Wink.
And if it's not comfy to sail or the fittings aren't right or whatever - just get the jigsaw out and chop it / fill it / pad it .

The thing is how is it that it's taken someone like me, who knows a bit more than the average joe, 8 years to realise what you're saying there is true..
We get sucked in by the marketing misinformation, if it isn't the bloody smod purveyors it's the old duffers going hmm you need a solo/streaker/insert appropriate coffin dodging device...

What is needed here is a prestigious class that encourages designs that make life fast and easy and don't get hamstrung by rules designed to protect tightwads...


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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by I luv Wight

Which is why some of us like development classes - more room to tune the rig to suit you, your sailing style, your weight, your favoured conditions, and  have different shape boats that carry different weights, suitable for different conditions, different wind strengths, but they all go more or less the same speed in the end - if you get it right Wink.
And if it's not comfy to sail or the fittings aren't right or whatever - just get the jigsaw out and chop it / fill it / pad it .

The thing is how is it that it's taken someone like me, who knows a bit more than the average joe, 8 years to realise what you're saying there is true..
We get sucked in by the marketing misinformation, if it isn't the bloody smod purveyors it's the old duffers going hmm you need a solo/streaker/insert appropriate coffin dodging device...

What is needed here is a prestigious class that encourages designs that make life fast and easy and don't get hamstrung by rules designed to protect tightwads...

you need to box rule up your V-Twin and find 20 to 20,000 others who agree with you... and then never bother asking anyone for a bloody handicap, race them scratch- a blend of chequebook and skill.

I'd happily apply the same principle to racing a D-One against an RS100... forget the bullsh*t handicaps, go sailing together and get a beer in afterwards.  Let the best sailor win.  Sadly the concept didn't float when I mooted it within our club.


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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 5:49pm
Now I like to think I've done a little more research on performance variations than the average sailor, and I've never discovered any evidence that the tightest one designs have any closer or less close racing than the most varied development classes.

The difference between more lard and less lard, or three inches here or three inches there may make a few places difference in your finishing place, but the difference between top of the fleet and mid fleet etc is the sailor and only the sailor (with a small caveat for really knackered old gear, one design or development class.

And that's also why handicaps make far less difference than everyone thinks.


Posted By: Mike Holt
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 6:38pm
What a load of rubbish. I get beaten by taller sailors, shorter sailors, lighter sailors and heavier sailors. Regardless of the conditions. But most of all I get beaten by better prepared, better practiced sailors.


Posted By: x1testpilot
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 6:53pm
It has been interesting testing the X0. Chris and I are "optimal" in our opinion for the X1, but the X0 is designed for less heavy crew weight so we have to bear this in mind. While we have found it a delight to sail - especially with a bit of wind, it would be a mistake to optimise it for us.


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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 6:56pm
Yup completely disagree.

Look at the different sizes and shapes at the front of the laser radial class.  Yeah, they're all within a range, but there's +/- 6 inches and 10kg.

And if you think that you've maximised your boatspeed, you're always wrong.  You just haven't found the right person to show you just how wrong you are.   The laser has a bendy pole and 4 bits of string, and yet somehow/sometimes, people can make it go much quicker than the other people at the front of the fleet.  Not because they're 1 inch taller, or 300grammes lighter, but because their technique is better.

Now you're telling me that in classes that are much more complex you train a bit and get to the top boatspeed and then there's nothing else?  Nu-uh.  Does not compute with my experience.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 7:01pm
One of the odder things about "optimal" weights is that in a weight sensitive class the optimal weight is the average weight of the fleet, not some magoc value which gives the best straightline speed. That explains why, for instance, the "ideal weight" was different in all woman Europe fleets and mixed fleets. Its *very* counter intuitive.

The way to show it is to model a set of results, have the heaviest competitor winning the heavy race, the lightest competitor winning the light race and so on, and then look at the series places. The competitor bang in the middle does best, because its places that count, not speed round the track.

But all this stuff makes far less difference than you'd expect - except in sailor's heads because the person who goes into the race thinking he's beaten because of the conditions... almost always is.


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by JimC

One of the odder things about "optimal" weights is that in a weight sensitive class the optimal weight is the average weight of the fleet, not some magoc value which gives the best straightline speed. That explains why, for instance, the "ideal weight" was different in all woman Europe fleets and mixed fleets. Its *very* counter intuitive.

The way to show it is to model a set of results, have the heaviest competitor winning the heavy race, the lightest competitor winning the light race and so on, and then look at the series places. The competitor bang in the middle does best, because its places that count, not speed round the track.

But all this stuff makes far less difference than you'd expect - except in sailor's heads because the person who goes into the race thinking he's beaten because of the conditions... almost always is.

Wise words from JimC there.




Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 8:12pm
OK OK, some assumptions here. One being that all the sailors are also of equal ability, as is often the case at high level at the front of any given fleet, wether they are windsurfers, lasers or fatb**tardcontainers..

It is a fact the bigger the volume displacement and the bigger the sail the less likely that weight plays a part, but height and leverage do, so taking say fbc'slike a Phantom two 100 kg sailors equal ability, say gate start so equal from the gun, one 6.6 the other 5.10 and it is breezy, no question there which is fastest.
It's physics, with a stayed rig not much you can do to alter that, is my point.

Same if two sailors are 67 kgs and one is 5-6 and the other 6.2, the taller one will be faster, nothing you can do about it, not if they both have equal sailing ability, both high level both know the ropes, both dial the shifts...


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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by JimC

One of the odder things about "optimal" weights is that in a weight sensitive class the optimal weight is the average weight of the fleet,.....


That's possibly because it's best to never have a huge weight disadvantage, rather than to excel in extreme conditions.
But I think you are right, unless you are a long way from the ideal range, the difference is less than many people seem to think. I prefer the feel of a boat when the crew is lighter than me though, possibly that speaks volumes about my standard of teamwork...


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 13 Apr 12 at 10:59pm
Like my disgards I always like to get my excuses in early.....GRF seems to be making a full time job of it!


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 8:53am
So what's the solution Graeme- further bio-metric variables to a handicap system that already struggles to provide equitable racing that anyone takes seriously?

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 9:06am
I suspect that there is a marginal amount of truth to all this once a real blow picks up, but over a sailing season I cannot really say I've felt that me height (short) has dictated my position in a traveller series. I'm sure If I chose a boat I was completely unsuited to (at 5'5 and 11 stone, a Finn would probebly be a mistake) then I would find it a problem. But in a Lightning, Firefly or one of the many other classes I've sailed over the years, I have raced against tall people, people even shorter than me, fat people, skinny ones, and it has always been skill which has decided the winner. Skill that usually belongs to someone else, sadly...

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Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 9:54am
I think that weight is more important than height and over a season a lot of classes will have have range of weights (I'm guessing) of at least 10kg at the front.

As the breeze picks up, upwind (1/2 - 1/3 of a lap) in a hiker the lightweights can compensate with fitness by just hiking harder and further. A lot of classes with modern rigs allow huge amount of de-powering. Downwind the heavier weights have to rely on technique and ability - something equally open to light weights.

In the light stuff, the lightweights have it again.

Given the predominance on light to medium conditions in which we leisure sailors sail, to me a lighter fitter crew in a modern rig with equal ability will nearly always trump a heavier crew.

So lighter and fitter is the way to go - which is bad news for me. 



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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 10:00am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

OK OK, some assumptions here. One being that all the sailors are also of equal ability, as is often the case at high level at the front of any given fleet, wether they are windsurfers, lasers or fatb**tardcontainers..

It is a fact the bigger the volume displacement and the bigger the sail the less likely that weight plays a part, but height and leverage do, so taking say fbc'slike a Phantom two 100 kg sailors equal ability, say gate start so equal from the gun, one 6.6 the other 5.10 and it is breezy, no question there which is fastest.
It's physics, with a stayed rig not much you can do to alter that, is my point.

Same if two sailors are 67 kgs and one is 5-6 and the other 6.2, the taller one will be faster, nothing you can do about it, not if they both have equal sailing ability, both high level both know the ropes, both dial the shifts...

There's no question who theoretically if fastest in that case, but it would only matter if both sailors ability meant that they were able to sail the boat completely optimally, 100% of the time.  Which they're not.  So the 5.10 guy is able to sail faster than the 6.6 one, he just has to work out how.

And is this not a problem in every physically limited sport that has ever been invented rather than a "problem" with fleet racing.

P.S at the front of the laser fleet everyone is not the same ability, so your assumption is wrong.  It's just not that simple.  You can't even rate "ability" as a single factor.  I might be better at negotiating a wave of 22% steepness steepness that I approach at an angle of 43 degrees, but that doesn't mean I'm better at a wave of 22% steepness that I approach at 50 degrees.  The next guy might be better at that.  I might be able to hike at maximum effort for 6 minutes in flat water, but only 3 in chop, and the next guy might only be able to do 4 minutes in flat water but can also do 4 minutes in chop.




Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 10:01am
Originally posted by timeintheboat



In the light stuff, the lightweights have it again.

Given the predominance on light to medium conditions in which we leisure sailors sail, to me a lighter fitter crew in a modern rig with equal ability will nearly always trump a heavier crew.

So lighter and fitter is the way to go - which is bad news for me. 


+1 especially inland where kinetic movement is even more restricted due to lack of anything resembling a wave.  

But without adding any real weight (no pun intended) to Graeme's argument, you only have to look at the physical diversity amongst the UK's top Finn sailors- sure they are all powerful athletes, they need to be to sail a Finn to this level, but actually there's enough differences to make me know that even at this elite level, skill is still, without question, the deciding factor.

What this means to us clubbies, is quite simply- choose a boat relatively suitable to your build and weight, then let skill do the rest.


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Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 10:44am
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by timeintheboat



In the light stuff, the lightweights have it again.

Given the predominance on light to medium conditions in which we leisure sailors sail, to me a lighter fitter crew in a modern rig with equal ability will nearly always trump a heavier crew.

So lighter and fitter is the way to go - which is bad news for me. 


+1 especially inland where kinetic movement is even more restricted due to lack of anything resembling a wave.  

But without adding any real weight (no pun intended) to Graeme's argument, you only have to look at the physical diversity amongst the UK's top Finn sailors- sure they are all powerful athletes, they need to be to sail a Finn to this level, but actually there's enough differences to make me know that even at this elite level, skill is still, without question, the deciding factor.

What this means to us clubbies, is quite simply- choose a boat relatively suitable to your build and weight, then let skill do the rest.
Not forgetting that's it's best to do this in a mixed handicap fleet so it's fair on everyone. Wink

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 10:46am
Do other people also find that personal skill levels vary a lot from day to day, race to race and even during races? I'm sure a lot of it has to do with concentration, but "the boat was just going slowly" is very much a state of mind. If we could all sail to 100% of our personal skill level 100% of the time, we may as well just had out the prizes without bothering with the race. I'm pretty sure factors like these far outweigh (pun intended) the premise of this thread.

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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 11:24am
Originally posted by timeintheboat

...

Given the predominance on light to medium conditions in which we leisure sailors sail, to me a lighter fitter crew in a modern rig with equal ability will nearly always trump a heavier crew.

So lighter and fitter is the way to go - which is bad news for me. 



We have some heavy fit people to confuse the issue.
And some of the lighter crews lack stamina up a mile and a half beat.
Over a season, I don't think many of our club series are decided purely on weight.
At a higher level, fitness is a big thing, but it's no substitute for boat handling or wind awareness.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Rupert

Do other people also find that personal skill levels vary a lot from day to day, race to race and even during races?

Spectacularly so Rupert. Because of the way I do the analysis for our club's personal handicap scheme I see a lot of how sailor's performance varies from day to day and race to race, and it highlights how ridiculously exaggerated this thread is. There seems to be something abou sailors which causes them to want to believe that the results of races are preordained by external factors. US leadmine sailors whinging about handicaps are even worse. When it comes to results folks, its all about how you sailed. The rest is trivial.


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 14 Apr 12 at 12:00pm
Absolutely Steve - happy clappy spreadsheet racing

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Posted By: Stargazey
Date Posted: 16 Apr 12 at 6:53pm
I completely agree with GRF - fleet racing does suck ... purely because it never fails to highlight just how crap I am at sailing.


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 17 Apr 12 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by Stargazey

I completely agree with GRF - fleet racing does suck ... purely because it never fails to highlight just how crap I am at sailing.


pretend you're in a fleet of your own, then you'll always be first on to the water, first round the windward mark, first across the line, first into the bar afterwards and first one packed up ready to go!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Apr 12 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by getafix

Originally posted by Stargazey

I completely agree with GRF - fleet racing does suck ... purely because it never fails to highlight just how crap I am at sailing.


pretend you're in a fleet of your own, then you'll always be first on to the water, first round the windward mark, first across the line, first into the bar afterwards and first one packed up ready to go!

and you can call your fleet the lonely losers fleet. 


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 17 Apr 12 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by getafix

Originally posted by Stargazey

I completely agree with GRF - fleet racing does suck ... purely because it never fails to highlight just how crap I am at sailing.


pretend you're in a fleet of your own, then you'll always be first on to the water, first round the windward mark, first across the line, first into the bar afterwards and first one packed up ready to go!

and you can call your fleet the lonely losers fleet. 


true, buying a round would be very cheap and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone from the "fleet" who dissagrees with you after the race though... unless of course you're in front of a mirror, possibly own a weapon, some dodgy 80's clothing and find yourself repeating "you talkin to me?" Wink


Posted By: Stargazey
Date Posted: 17 Apr 12 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by getafix

Originally posted by Stargazey

I completely agree with GRF - fleet racing does suck ... purely because it never fails to highlight just how crap I am at sailing.


pretend you're in a fleet of your own, then you'll always be first on to the water, first round the windward mark, first across the line, first into the bar afterwards and first one packed up ready to go!

and you can call your fleet the lonely losers fleet. 
 
I have no issue being at the back of the fleet - I'm certainly not lonely and would rather be losing and enjoying myself than being on the shore and moaning.



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