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Women's skiff re-vote

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9049
Printed Date: 26 Jan 21 at 3:05am
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Topic: Women's skiff re-vote
Posted By: 2547
Subject: Women's skiff re-vote
Date Posted: 04 Mar 12 at 1:04pm
Now many of us have actually seen these boats which do you think is the best boat?
 
Not which do you think will be selected due to political or logistical issues; which boat do you think looks the best?
 
Ignore the PR & hype and use you own views ....
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 04 Mar 12 at 9:37pm
can we have a category for none? seriously dissapointed today

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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 04 Mar 12 at 11:52pm
What kind of thing would you like then?

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Posted By: rs600676
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 7:51am
that rebal thing was horrible 

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race hard or go home


Posted By: themeaningoflife
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 8:12am
I agree, it flexed massively when I put some weight on the racks, and the position of the trapeze wires was horrible. That said, the aura seemed to have changed for the worse with the rack design from when I saw the prototype at the ovington inlands, although the new rudder gantry and foils were stunning. The 900 was a bit of a let down having read the review, with the hull weight taking me by surprise and also the jib sheeting system seeming over complex for what was needed, leading to a weird way of making continuous sheets by threading the jib sheet through the mainsheet, very odd in my humble opinion.

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Cambridge University Lightweight Rowing Club
RS800 1128

kindly sponsored by http://www.rwo-marine.com" rel="nofollow - RWO Marine


Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:06am
id like a rs900 that was a sensible weight

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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:13am
Originally posted by ham4sand

id like a rs900 that was a sensible weight


The hull weight is 55kg excluding solid wings. All up weight is 109kg. So the 12ft boat is 45kg, that's 3.75 kg per foot, the 900 works out at 3.6kg per foot but that is obviously excluding the wings. Sounds sensible to me.


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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:24am
Help the 900 lose a few kilos and dump thst alloy boom. Cost did not seem to stop the Aura having some lovely carbon racks so why put an alloy boom on the 900?

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: rs600676
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:26am
the aruas wings did not seem big enough for for to people or certainly a tight squeeze BUT the carbon work on it looked amazing and the gantry was the dogs dangles bits !! but the 900 had it for me 

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race hard or go home


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Contender443

Help the 900 lose a few kilos and dump thst alloy boom. Cost did not seem to stop the Aura having some lovely carbon racks so why put an alloy boom on the 900?
 
I noticed that; why put an alloy boom on a 2012 design?
 
Cost cutting?


Posted By: chrisg
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:40am
It was the first thing I saw when I walked up to the boat. Then walked away pretty quickly because of it.

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Posted By: rs600676
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:52am
[TUBE]CRxwzrY3aMU[/TUBE]

just found this the fx womens skiff


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race hard or go home


Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 12:01pm
As you all know the RS900 was purpose developed as a Womens Olympic boat - and there are some fairly firm guidelines with regard cost. It was our view that the benefit of a carbon boom (and gnav)did not justify the added expense. It would simply add to the top line price of a boat, which is regarded by many to be very price sensitive. It is the same reason that the boat is not carbon.
An example of an expense which we think is important is the solid wings - it adds weight as well, but from all the feedback from the girls over the last year, this was strongly favoured. I hope this helps explain some of the features.


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Nick




Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 12:07pm
The Aura too is a glass hull- the designer explained that they'd they'd need to use as much weight in carbon anyway (being down at fairly thin skins already, wanting to retain some robustness) and the gains to be had in stifness were not enough to make the cost worthwhile.

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-_
Al


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 12:55pm
FWMOIW the boom is a good place to save a bit of dosh. Its not that big, its an awkward bit of fabrication with fittings and everything and the weight isn't in too bad a place.


Posted By: CharlieW505
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 1:50pm
My 5 year old son saw the rs900 first as we walked into the hall, and simply said: "Daddy, is that the fastest boat, and can I have one.....".
 
Forget me.  I am a sailing convert already. Clearly RS have designed a boat that will get my son watching olympic sailing...!  Could I say that about the others?  The cherub did look great - btw.
I wonder how much the colour scheme is really what makes the boats look pretty.  they probably all look similar in white.
 
Appreciating the economics, I would still go carbon for the boom.  The price difference (if we are talking about an olympic campaign) is only a couple of hundred pounds - peanuts.
 
Forget any weight difference, metal booms used on the sea will break more often (in my experience) so if the kit is being used hard then it is probably a false economy.


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 3:12pm
I can't see that saving a few quid on a alloy boom on a boat that must come in at the £15k mark is worth all the negatives; and long term the alloy will probably cost more ...
 
The best thing about a light carbon boom is that if you bang your head it hurts a LOT less so carbon booms are also a saftey feature.


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 3:19pm
I'm sure it's for good reason...

Out of interest, what currency is the IOC/ISAF target set in?  

For a UK builder a large chunk of the anticipated GPM could have been eaten with the slide in the Euro... 


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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 4:50pm
on looks and finish i would have to say the aura was by far and away the best of the bunch that attended the show.  modern looking and those wings looked sweet! 
the 900 although finished off well and surely a good performer just looks dated in comparison, and maybe because it looks like the 49er it may move it to the top choice for the selctors, but for me i'd like to see the aura get in and then maybe a blokes version in 2020 and a single handed version too for men and women.

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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 5:26pm
Why are you all moaning about an aluminium boom on the 900? Am i right in thinking the 49er boom is still ally? 

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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 6:59pm
Because ally is so last century. This is supposed to be a cool 21st century boat. Can you imagine a F1 car with aluminium suspension struts???

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Because ally is so last century.


And wind propulsion is significantly older ...



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Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Can you imagine a F1 car...

Aren't they the ones that have a wooden plank underneath, and if you wear too much off you're DSQ?


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 8:14pm
It does appear that we have become obsessed with Carbon fibre, even when its not the best material for the job.


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Because ally is so last century. This is supposed to be a cool 21st century boat. Can you imagine a F1 car with aluminium suspension struts???

No (well yes actually), but can you imagine an F1 car with a budget for a GP including the car of about 20 grand!? 

Comparing cars and boats is such a last resort tactic for making a point.  Carbon for the sake of being black really does annoy me.  I feel slightly embarrassed sailing the 100 times with its GRP pole which is carbon covered just for the sake of its colour, and the carbon foredeck which you can have in GRP too, so it cant be there for weight or structural reasons. 


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 9:43pm
Even the British Moth, designed in 1932, has a carbon boom these days...

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 10:20pm
Sure, but you don't necessarily need a carbon boom. I had a tin boom on my PlusPlus because it wasn't a place where spending the extra would do much good, and it was easier to rig the tin one. I have a plastic one on the Canoe, but only because I was given half an old megabyte mast (thank you Datchet Chandlery!)

When costing a production boat I suspect its very easy to say, well we've got to have proper this that and the other, and before you know it you've put a grand on the price. A really smart development engineer can shave a few things here a few things there and save a few hundred quid *without making the boat any different to sail*.

As for forumla one and rules, just get a load of this lot...
from
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/8697/fia.html

ARTICLE 15: CAR CONSTRUCTION
15.1 Permitted materials:
15.1.1 The following is the list of permitted materials. These are the only materials permitted to be used in the construction of the Formula One Car provided only that in all cases the material is available on a non-exclusive basis and under normal commercial terms to all competitors.
Permitted materials :
1) Aluminium alloys.
2) Silicon carbide particulate reinforced aluminium alloy matrix composites.
3) Steel alloys.
4) Cobalt alloys.
5) Copper alloys containing ¡Â 2.5% by weight of Beryllium.
6) Titanium alloys (but not for use in fasteners with <15mm diameter male thread).
7) Magnesium alloys.
8) Nickel based alloys containing 50% < Ni < 69%.
9) Tungsten alloy.
10) Thermoplastics : monolithic, particulate filled, short fibre reinforced.
11) Thermosets : monolithic, particulate filled, short fibre reinforced.
12) Carbon fibres manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) precursor. (*)
13) Carbon fibres manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) precursor which have :
- a tensile modulus ¡Â 550GPa ;
- a density ¡Â 1.92 g/cm ;
- unidirectional or planar reinforcement within their pre-impregnated form, not including three dimensional weaves or stitched fabrics (but three-dimensional preforms and fibre reinforcement using Z-pinning technology are permitted) ;
- no carbon nanotubes incorporated within the fibre or its matrix ;
- a permitted matrix, not including a carbon matrix.
14) Aramid fibres.
15) Poly(p-phenylene benzobisoxazole) fibres (e.g. ¡°Zylon¡±).
16) Polyethylene fibres.
17) Polypropylene fibres.
18) E and S Glass fibres.
19) Sandwich panel cores: Aluminium, Nomex, polymer foams, syntactic foams, balsa wood, carbon foam.
20) The matrix system utilised in all pre-impregnated materials must be epoxy, cyanate ester, phenolic, bismaleimide, polyurethane, polyester or polyimide based. (*)
21) The matrix system utilised in all pre-impregnated materials must be epoxy, cyanate ester or bismaleimide based.
22) Monolithic ceramics.
[Materials marked (*) are permitted only for parts classified as either front, rear or side impact structures, side intrusion panels or suspension members as regulated by Articles 15.4.3, 15.5.3, 15.4.6, 15.4.7 and 10.3 of the Technical Regulations respectively.]
Exceptions :
1) All electrical components (e.g. control boxes, wiring looms, sensors).
2) All seals & rubbers (e.g. rubber boots, o-rings, gaskets, any fluid seals, bump rubbers).
3) Fluids (e.g. water, oils).
4) Tyres.
5) Coatings and platings (e.g. DLC, nitriding, chroming).
6) Paint.
7) Adhesives.
8) Thermal insulation (e.g. felts, gold tape, heat shields).
9) All currently regulated materials (e.g. fuel bladder, headrest, extinguishant, padding, skid block).
10) Brake and clutch friction materials.
11) All parts of engines homologated according to Appendix 4



Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 10:23pm
Reckon the FX will be as quick, if not quicker than a tin rig 49er. If the 900 is almost as heavy, but shorter, the FX will win the speed contest, most likely the sailing contest. The Aura will have the innovation vote, but if it sails like a 14, which I reckon it may, the winged boats will shine through as nicer to manouvere and sail in general. As for the carbon with everything debate, chosing carbon for everything just highlights bad engineering and inefficient use of materials. You can get glass epoxy very close to carbon weight wise for much less cost. Why use carbon unless you really, really need it for stiffness? Oh yeah, to pump up the price of the boat and make it less accessible..
 
(+1 Jim, posted at the same time as you)


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 10:34pm
Carbon skinning is offensive .

And yep using it when not the stuff for the job, or in applications where not engineered to make use of it's its material properties is also bullsh*t.

Thing is, a boom is a spar in bending, which should be the easiest thing in the world to do well. Cost delta on tube is app £100 I.e sub 1% of boat cost. Appaling penny pinching which will add through life cost in an application that should be fit for 200 days use a year. You can get some of that ton back if you are intelligent in how you terminate ropes etc. Another example of going the wrong side of the cost capability comprimise.

Boats that look like they've ramraided halfords are wrong.


Posted By: Sosoomii
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:03pm
Says the man who designed the V Twin...

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Don't shoot the messenger


Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:07pm
900 is over 20kgs lighter sailing weight than the FX.....
 
Performance; Frances and Nicola at 116kgs could occasionally match James and Ed 154kg (good 49er sailors - 2nd at 49er Junior Worlds, been at it 2 years), but generally boys were quicker. Much appeared technique (boys lower wired, more physical, quicker in the manouvres) so hard to be really sure. However, the 49er requires weight and leverage to acheive that - put 116kgs on 49er, smaller rig or not and it is hard to see enough drive being generated to match the smaller, lighter 900. Likewise I imagine that a 65kg radial girl is rarely as quick as a 80kg full rig guy. Same with 300 B/A rigs or 100 10.2/8.4 rigs upwind. Not quite the same, I know. Anyway, time will tell, but certainly ultimate performance is not top of anyones agenda anyway, I doubt. They are probably all quick enough apart from the XX, I guess.
 
 
 


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Nick




Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 05 Mar 12 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by Sosoomii

Says the man who designed the V Twin...

Got that wrong dick, your name is dick isn't it? Anyway dick, he didn't 'design' the v twin, I  did, he simply acted on my instructions including my measurements and was faithful to them. To his credit he did actually give me an alternative design that he would have favoured, would in all probability have worked better, but then it wouldn't have been what I wanted, O.K.?

 So lets have less of the bullsh*t oh and at least he has had the balls to do his own thing as well, rather than bash a keyboard and come out with bollox on his first post.. You need to spend some time on here, earn a bit of respect in that you might know more than the square root of didly squat, to criticise guys like Dan, you hearing this?

Now is where you say sorry.

Or stfu and rank right up there with the sea monkey jerks of this forum.


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 6:53am
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

Carbon skinning is offensive .

ClapClap


Plus, as my boss points out, chuck a load of carbon black into the resin, and you'll not be easily able to spot the difference between woven carbon and glass skins

The F1 regs confuse me at Points 12 and 13- why have 12 if 13 exists? And why no stiched fabrics? It's hardly an expensive technology! As for no carbon nanotubes, well, I don't think there's any designers who know their stuff are going to lose any sleep over that...



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-_
Al


Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 8:22am
Carbon fibre is pleasing to the eye. It may not be just because it's trendy. The flower of a snakes head fritillaria and the abalone shell both have regular weave type patterns which were pleasing to the eye long before technology produced the beatifull sculptured racks on the Aurus. There is something about regular patterns on smooth curved surfaces that does it for me at least, irrispective of function.

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tickel


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 8:29am
Originally posted by tickel

Carbon fibre is pleasing to the eye. It may not be just because it's trendy. The flower of a snakes head fritillaria and the abalone shell both have regular weave type patterns which were pleasing to the eye long before technology produced the beatifull sculptured racks on the Aurus. There is something about regular patterns on smooth curved surfaces that does it for me at least, irrispective of function.


It'll look more practical with some pro grip on it.


Posted By: BarnsieB14768
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 8:39am
Morning Nick, having had a good look at the test boats on show at the exhibition, it would seem that the anti is up and there are a number of interesting protoypes out there to choose from.

Having sailed most skiffs over the years and enjoyed the experience on the whole, have found that the achilles heel for most skiffs, other than weight (5,000), is the ability for a team to right the boat in all conditions. My one reservation with the 900 is the area projection of the wing. Having seen and trained many over the years in the righting of the B14 (we have nets to overcome this problem (Looney Tunes B18 had solid wings and issues)) and others, know that this is a major issue for the lighter teams, and was wondering what the critical weight is for a successful righting at the top end of the racing wind range.

Not wishing to knock what looks like a good design but curious about how this point has been tested and what the minimum crew weight has been so far to successfully achieve this in a wind and sea state at or near to the top end of the racing limit.

Looks like the trials is not a foregone thing and may well be down to taste and lobbying.


Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 9:01am

Can someone point out where the use of carbon fibre has been miss used?



Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 9:01am
Originally posted by JimC


As for forumla one and rules, just get a load of this lot...
from
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/8697/fia.html
[quote]
ARTICLE 15: CAR CONSTRUCTION
15.1 Permitted materials:
[Snip]

17) Polypropylene fibres.

[Snip]
 
Who else spotted that in the list?!
 
How long before we see a rotomoulded F1?!! LOL


Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 9:09am
Hi Barnsie - righting from inversion was always something we were aware off and why we started over a year ago with the white prototype in pics in the spring. It has been righted successfully in some awful conditions with 114kg - the minimum is 110kg. Actually almost the hardest was in a flat calm - the waves and wind help. They use the standard 49er technique - hull downwind of the rig, and are pretty quick at it now.
The 900 has a lot less bouyancy in the wing than a 49er, so it is easier to sink it and start the righting process - I'll leave you to draw that conclusion, without pointing out what is blindingly obvious to the girls. Yep, a lot of people have spent quite a lot of money, so we have to believe it is not a foregone conclusion!


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Nick




Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 9:13am
Wait for a roto mold hull with a carbon print..........


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tickel


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 9:16am
Originally posted by BarnsieB14768



Not wishing to knock what looks like a good design but curious about how this point has been tested and what the minimum crew weight has been so far to successfully achieve this in a wind and sea state at or near to the top end of the racing limit.
 
BarnsieB14768; I pointed this out some time ago, I have seen lightweight 49er crews that were highly skilled have big problems recovering a boat that has gone turtle ... I'm sure this is a side effect of the solid wings. I expect they will test all of this at the trials though ...


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 9:17am
Originally posted by Chris Turner

Can someone point out where the use of carbon fibre has been miss used?


RS400 foredeck, any Vauxhall Nova on an estate near you!
There are some awful examples in motorcycle accessories like the 'carbon tax disc holder'.
We ought to have got over it by now, my bike is 21years old with its carbon mudguards!


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 10:00am
well the next on trend will be technical renewables... like bamboo.

yep, you heard it hear first, by the next decade woodie boats will be cool again.






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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 10:07am
Originally posted by rogue

well the next on trend will be technical renewables... like bamboo.

yep, you heard it hear first, by the next decade woodie boats will be cool again.

 
* sets the GRF stopwatch*

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Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 10:25am
There was a foiling Moth at the last JEC composites show made from Hemp laminate...Didn't know if to sail it or smoke it.


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 10:29am
Originally posted by rogue

well the next on trend will be technical renewables... like bamboo.

yep, you heard it hear first, by the next decade woodie boats will be cool again.




LOLLOLLOL
 
Oh wait, you might actually be serious here?  Oh my. No.
 
As for polypropylene fibres- well they make for really cheap and nasty ropes... Plus, you're almost certainly using polyethylene fibres on your boat.


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-_
Al


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 10:36am
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Originally posted by rogue

well the next on trend will be technical renewables... like bamboo.

yep, you heard it hear first, by the next decade woodie boats will be cool again.

 
* sets the GRF stopwatch*

Check back to the beginning of the V twin thread, I did specify bamboo as a potential material, we've been selling kite boards built with it, and board shorts, did you know it eliminates jock itch? Natural anti bacteriological wonder material bamboo, difficult to get anyone that up to date in the Marine Industry I fear.

*Wood is good 

*In certain not varnished coffin applicationsWink

Then again isn't Bamboo a form of grass?


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 11:07am
http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/03/adzero-bamboo-smartphone-prototypes-hands-on/ - http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/03/adzero-bamboo-smartphone-prototypes-hands-on/

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Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 11:20am
Smartphones aren't exactly subject to high structural loads.
 
I have heard tale of a smartphone manufacturer that decided that carbon fibre might be a good material for a case.


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-_
Al


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 11:24am
Originally posted by alstorer

Smartphones aren't exactly subject to high structural loads.
 
I have heard tale of a smartphone manufacturer that decided that carbon fibre might be a good material for a case.

Yours might not be!
I've seen a few broken ones :-)


Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 11:58am
@nick peters
 
could we please have a definitive breakdown of weight in the 900?


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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 12:14pm
I think you are being a bit optimistic asking for that.... They are in the middle of a competitive selection process at the moment so I'd be very surprised if one of the manufacturers would give away much information at this time.  We already know the hull is 55kg and all up wight 109kg.....


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 12:17pm
I think it makes life easier if you don't tie yourself down to a published weight at least until you have a reasonably number of boats in service and have a good idea if anything needs to be beefed up or even lightened...


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Ian29937

I think you are being a bit optimistic asking for that.... They are in the middle of a competitive selection process at the moment so I'd be very surprised if one of the manufacturers would give away much information at this time.  We already know the hull is 55kg and all up wight 109kg.....


+1 although "optimistic" wasn't the word that came to mind originally!


Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 12:22pm

Designed crew weight - 110kg - 130kg. Although would work in real terms for upto 140kg.

Fitted hull weight 55kg. Fitted wings 9kgs each. Sailing weight 109kgs.

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Nick




Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 12:26pm
Does anyone know if there are any criteria in place for bidders regarding total boat prices and spares costs?  Would also be interesting to know if bidders have to provide some sort of model for supply of boats and parts geographically.


Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 06 Mar 12 at 12:27pm
Thanks! was mainly wondering the wing weights!

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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: BarnsieB14768
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 8:35am
Interestingly hull weight less than the B14 but all up weight a bit more. So edging on the side of caution to get reliability which is not a bad thing. B14 hull rigged with pole 63.5 kg and all up weight including 8.5 kg of lead (carbon wing eqaulisation to alloy wing, placed equally in 4 parts at the outboard end of the struts) approx 104 - 106 kg depending on ropes and tramps used. B14 now has proven reliability and can be sailed by the right team up to 35 mph winds but a real handful downwind in short seas as shown at the Steamer this year (but no swims in 788) where we had to back off as going airborne on a regular basis.

Looks like all the short list should be fun and shame we did not have one at Weymouth. The 3 main contenders would all do the girls proud.

Nick/Chris/Richard one last question, what is the upwind and downwind areas for the Rebel, RS 900 and Aura and overall widths (righting moments). Think that will tell us more. Await replies with interest.


Posted By: Richard20Sailing
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 2:30pm
The RS 900 looks a lovely boat. Is the 800 fleet/class not concerned that if it is adopted and marketed then nobody will buy an 800 again?Cry 

I personally prefer the Aura as it is looks about the right level of challenge needed and is a more up to date design.

I only prey they don't choose the 29erXX as it is a compromise to far.Dead


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To many shackles are never enough.


Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 2:56pm
The RS900 is 2900mm wide, and has 18m2 of fore and aft - over 6 in the jib, and the kite is 27m2 - from memory, may vary by the odd minor decimal.
 
If the RS900 is selected then it will go the way of all other Olympics boats - of course 49ers are sailed at clubs, but it is a boat designed for guys. How many girl teams or very light couples would be interested outside of an olympic campaign? My guess is not enough to make a active domestic class.
If the RS900 is not selected then it is our intention that it will NOT be launched as a new class.
Therefore the RS800 class need not be concerned - indeed I think it will benefit from continued interest from the girls as more are tempted into high performance sailing perhaps to find that an Olympic campaign is both a huge commitment and expense and it is more fun and sociable to sail in a strong domestic fleet - perhaps sailing with a boyfriend or husband.


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Nick




Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 3:04pm
Or a girl friend .............You never know Wink

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Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 3:15pm
I'm not so sure the Aura is a more up to date design, it just seems to draw on features evolved from a different set of criteria. That bow is a solution to designing a boat to a length limit, which is a different question.
Any of the designs might have implications for the RS800, but they will take time to establish a circuit and a secondhand market, so the 800 will remain a strong choice for a twin-wire club/amateur boat. It is kind of 'mainstream' and 'sensible' compared to 49ers, 14's etc. If you get a chance to try an 800, take it.



Posted By: Richard20Sailing
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 3:49pm
Thank Nick for your reply. 

I happily agree the announcement of the Ladies Skiff in Brazil has been a massive boast to skiff sailing generally. Second hand 29ers are worth at least £800 more than before the announcement. Three teenage girls at our club brought one each (parent pound). It should help all skiff classes. 

After the boat show the rs900 was the boat I wanted to sail most. It looked much more attractive than the rs800. Being a middle age male I am not the target audience but we will be buy the second hand boats. 




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To many shackles are never enough.


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 4:26pm
Doesn't anyone else find it ever so slightly significant that the Governing body of the sport is calling for a design that if unsuccessful would commercially be a no hoper?

I very much doubt the Aura beautiful boat that it is will go into production either.

So what's wrong then?




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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 4:58pm
Not sure about that. The 29erXX meets the brief and exists commercially. The 900 would be commercially hot stuff apart from clashing with the RS800.
The 49er variant could be viable as a training rig like the laser variants.
It's been said before that existing classes do not benefit from becoming olympic. In days of old, I understand that the 505 and Fireball both actively avoided olympic selection. The laser is probably an exception.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Doesn't anyone else find it ever so slightly significant that the Governing body of the sport is calling for a design that if unsuccessful would commercially be a no hoper?


I dunno about significant but its certainly bizarre. But its just another symptom of the "high performance is the future of sailing" myth, and of course you know what that did to board sailing.


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Doesn't anyone else find it ever so slightly significant that the Governing body of the sport is calling for a design that if unsuccessful would commercially be a no hoper?


I dunno about significant but its certainly bizarre. But its just another symptom of the "high performance is the future of sailing" myth, and of course you know what that did to board sailing.
 
Most Olympic equipment isn't commercially viable ... how many of the British cycling bikes are sold succesfully to the world market, or RSXs or Javlins or shot puts and so on ?
 
 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 5:30pm
Yes, but the kid down the athletics club is throwing a Javlin already. She isn't then being told "Javlins are so ancient greek, you should be throwing this amazing thing we have invented - it is an Olympic sport now, so you have to use it". The new throwy thing would have to catch on, be used by lots of people all over the world, and then, due to it being a massive world-wide sport, be selected for the games.

Oddly, Frizbee hasn't made it, though?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 17mika
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Not sure about that. The 29erXX meets the brief and exists commercially. The 900 would be commercially hot stuff apart from clashing with the RS800.
The 49er variant could be viable as a training rig like the laser variants.
It's been said before that existing classes do not benefit from becoming olympic. In days of old, I understand that the 505 and Fireball both actively avoided olympic selection. The laser is probably an exception.
 
29erxx exists commercially, but has not been exactly a huge success; the rig (more or less) has been finalized in 2009 and since then most of the sales are rigs chartered in events and then sold with a discount. In our club we have 3 boats (4 if we count an old green rig)  but I guess we are the biggest fleet in the planet for a single club :D
 
49er variant could really be IMHO a training tool; the boss of our club is praying for the fx to be seletect, in order to use them for double trapeze sailing courses :D; but again, I don't know it there will be sufficient numbers just for that.
 
 
I honestly think that without the "olympic push" there woudn't be a proper market for girls skiff, and that the only boat that could survive a negative outcome of the trial is the XX, since it'a a simple and (relatively) inexpensive upgrade from the widely spread 29er.
 
 
 


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 6:23pm
17Mika, do you have many other twin wire boats in Italy? In the UK we have some International 14's, which are expensive to keep up to date, plus quite a lot of RS800's, a few Cherubs, a few 49ers. A few others too. I sail an RS800 a few times a year, it's great.
I think there wil be a market for twin wire boats, where is the logic in 'one wire is good, two wires is bad'? I mostly sail hiking boats, but if I went for a trapeze boat, why not twin wires? There are enough people around who have helmed from the wire now, on Contenders, RS600's, Mustos and RS700's, I think twin wires will slowly become accepted into more people's minds. Particularly sailing as a couple, it makes sense for the taller male to be out on the wire.
If the XX has only been marketed for less than 3 seasons, it is doing well to have sold a few boats around the globe. A lot of people are probably holding back for the results of the trials.

I understand that in Scandinavia, the RS500 is quite popular as a youth/girls 2 wire boat, if it has proved popular there, then I believe there is a market for a range of 2 wire boats worldwide. I don't think those sailors will grow older and want to progress to a hiking boat, without the choice of continuing with the twin wires.
The 49er is too big/powerful for most female sailors, which creates a need for something smaller.
It may only be good at big lakes and sea venues, but that is not a problem.
Whether there are enough 2-female teams to get good racing in one country is another question, maybe most females would do a lot of their racing in a mixed fleet. For that reason the 29erXX might win, as it would have youth teams for ladies teams to tune up against and train with.
It's always nice to hear different views from different countries.


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Doesn't anyone else find it ever so slightly significant that the Governing body of the sport is calling for a design that if unsuccessful would commercially be a no hoper?


I dunno about significant but its certainly bizarre. But its just another symptom of the "high performance is the future of sailing" myth, and of course you know what that did to board sailing.

It's not just bizarre, it could be argued as unfair elitism for the sake of medal supremacy, I mean i wonder how the Kenyan Olympic squad is going to approach twin trapezes for women in future?

The Mistral One design had barely made it to the four corners of the globe before they changed it, and now they're considering kitesurfing which hasn't even made it to the four corners of Yorkshire never mind the globe.

There's a strong argument that sailing is too elitist for the true Olympic ideals already, but suggesting here more ludicrously difficult boats (however gorgeous)is fairly pointless imv.

Surely as a showcase, Olympic sailing should be used for promoting the activity far and wide, not saying 'oh look here's something you haven't a cat's chance in hell of ever doing properly, since we can't and we have our Government and lottery funding behind us...'


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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 7:20pm
Clap G.R.F. @ 6.55pm. Very good. Moving with the times is one thing, but does that have to mean going ever more extreme. It could just as well mean a (relatively) simple efficient design which allows Olympians to show their skills.  


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 07 Mar 12 at 7:23pm
Leaving aside Beijing, is 49er sailing really that bad? That's an open question, I've never watched a proper 49er race. There are some 'crash and splash' videos on youtube, but that's true of all classes I think. I have watched yoofs in their 29ers going very well and not capsizing much in pretty challenging conditions. I think a few capsizes emphasizes the skill of the best sailors to the untrained eye, so I don't think zero capsizes is always the goal.
I take your point about inclusion of developing countries, but taking part in any high level sport is hard for them, even football which is cheap on equipment and creates excitement at home. There is money in places like Kenya, whether any of it will go to sailors is a different question. I'm pretty cynical about the olympics in general, but skiff racing will be the high point of it for me as a spectator.
The cost of the boats is trivial compared to travel, coaching, just not having a real job etc.
So long as sailing is in the olympics, we should just make the best of it. I'm sure the ability to sell TV footage acts more in favour of skiffs than 470's.
When did you last come home from the pub and search 'finn racing' on youtube? :-)


Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 08 Mar 12 at 8:25pm
It's not that bad to be honest RS400 @ C, especially with the carbon rig. I know quite a few mixed teams that sail them, us being one of them and a good boat to sail. If you hit big waves, it gets messy, but every boat has it's compromise. If you sail at a club where there's regularly a  big swell, buy an 800, you'll get more from it. Estuaries, harbours, lakes, all awesome for 49ers. People moan about that, but you don't go rallying in a F1 car, purely due to the car being optimised for the track. 
 


Posted By: BarnsieB14768
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 12:58pm
The 800 unfortunately has a stiff pole and the rake is not much (as is correct). The porblem is the pole with kite drives into the wave in front and you end up pitch poling. The thing is, if they pick the right boat, it should be good for 20 years and hopefully we'll see more teams sailing globally. Bring it on.

The B14 id 26 years old and with structured upgrades, the class  is still current and a great boat to sail. So any of the front runners should be able to last as long as the base and concept is correct at the start.


Posted By: BarnsieB14768
Date Posted: 09 Mar 12 at 1:00pm
Forgot to mention the 800 in large seas and at the wrong length to the boat's waterline length. Did it several times in Hayling Bay etc over the years, but does not detract from the boat overall. 



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