Print Page | Close Window

Match Racing in Handicap fleets

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9028
Printed Date: 29 Jan 22 at 12:48pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Match Racing in Handicap fleets
Posted By: Phantom Titch
Subject: Match Racing in Handicap fleets
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:10pm

Discussion Point for the forum:

Do you think that it is sportmanlike for a Faster boat to "Match Race" a slower boat to prevent Victory?
 
In a Handicap event.
 
Interested in your thoughs and perhaps a solution to overcome the advantage of the faster boat?


-------------
Titch ~:-))



Replies:
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:12pm
surely if the slower boat is in contention to be 'matched raced' they'll win on corrected time anyway?


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:17pm
They might well win on corrected for that race - but if your looking at the series result it is a valid question. If they both finish well down the pan but only the faster boat can afford another bad result to discard they would come out on top.

In class fleets I think its a perfectly valid tactic - In handicap racing where one boat has a significant speed advantage: not so much. Definately unsportsmanlike in those circumstances.


Posted By: LASERNUT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:20pm
Not if the fast boat doesn't need the race.

I'm guessing this is about the fireball trying to sail out all the other boats for the sail juice series. They took me out in the first race and there was nothing i could do. Where they went wrong was they stopped doing it in the following races and just sailed. They should have spent all weekend taking us all out OR spent more time getting a good result. Not a bit of both.


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:23pm
At our club we have average points of races completed for duties so it is possible to affect someone elses score once you have all the good results you need. This has hints of the Merlin Nationals and not one we would want to encourage. I hope we are all too polite and not bothered with this tactic for what is afterall a fun race between friends on a Sunday morning.

-------------
Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Phantom Titch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:24pm
So if it is "Unsportsmanlike" what rule could we envoke to prohibit such a dasdardly tactic?

-------------
Titch ~:-))


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:29pm
I think it is reasonable for a slower boat to try to match race a faster boat to get a result, it happens in pursuit races. No one lets people just pass otherewise there would be no luffing rules etc.
Agree with rogue that its to late for the fast hcaper....he should be in front.
We often have to fight our way through slower boats and the general chat of 'your're beating us on hcap' tends to lead to a break of covering.

the point of hcap is your are racing the clock so you don't want to be titting around match racing if you do some one else will win...


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:36pm
This sounds like one of those little quirks that would take an age to sort out, and still end up leaving a sour taste in the mouth if it's overly analysed and rules changed to accommodate something as vague as sportsmanship.  

I don't see a problem in match race tactics on the race course, it's part of sailing and some of the best races I've had have been for the tussles between a small group within the fleet.  Although personally I'd avoid it like the plague in a handicap race where your only true competitor is the clock.  

Part of sailing is anticipating the boats around you- breaking cover really isn't that hard, either through sailing skill or on the water 'negotiation'.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:39pm
You could protest under rule 2... Big question mark over whether you'd win or not, but the hassle and so on might educate the guilty party.

If the boats are pretty similar in performance you could make a case - especially if the faster boat manages to save their time or very close.

Otherwise I think the fast boat needs to look very hard at their conscience...


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by JimC

You could protest under rule 2... Big question mark over whether you'd win or not, but the hassle and so on might educate the guilty party.

If the boats are pretty similar in performance you could make a case - especially if the faster boat manages to save their time or very close.

Otherwise I think the fast boat needs to look very hard at their conscience...

conscience????LOL


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:41pm
This has been done to death.
You can match race another boat, provided your intention is to improve your place in the race, series or regatta.


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

This has been done to death.
You can match race another boat, provided your intention is to improve your place in the race, series or regatta.

agreed


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:08pm
So it would be fair for, say, a Phantom, which has qualified for a club race series, to sail a Mirror, which needed a result to qualify, and a good result to overtake the Phantom in the standings, off the course?

The phantom would be fast enough to sail round and round the Mirror, and would be able to catch up to it whatever happens, and attack it again and again, and if no rules are broken by the Phantom, then there is nothing theMirror can do? In fact, as the Mirror is unlikely to get any form of redress, it wouldn't matter if the Phantom lost a (discardable) protest anyway - the damage has been done.

Mirror and Phantom are used just as 2 examples of boats of differing speeds, not because I think either class is more likely than any other to be involved in such things.


-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by RS400atC

This has been done to death.
You can match race another boat, provided your intention is to improve your place in the race, series or regatta.

agreed
you can but I'm not sure you should
 
Rupert makes a good point (although I don't know why he thinks those big burly phantom boys would do that (to what would probably be a timid youth team in a mirror) more than anyone else (only kidding!)
 
rule 2 does exist, so the current rule already include fair play and sportsmanship - it is then just a matter of judgement about what is reasonable


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:33pm
you're right, I wouldn't...  but that's not to say I shouldn't.  If I'm one of those ultra competitive types (btw - I'm not), then it's not wrong- it's just the way I am and sailing against me would mean that my competitors could use that to their advantage also.  I know I've certainly psyched out faster boats into covering me before... only to crawl across the line 2 seconds behind them and beat them on handicap.

I've also had the cards turned racing a 100 against Albacores and Lasers... no point getting in tacking duel with them, you'll lose and lose badly!


Posted By: Little Monster
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:51pm

The discussion of match racing a slower boat within the same race, such as a handicap or pursuit, is clear that its just unfortunate for the slower boat. I have done it and had it done to, its just part of racing.

However the debate following the weekend is slightly different in that the Fireball was not competing on the same start as the slower phantom. They started their race and waited 5 mins above the line for the phantom to start.

In normal circumstances I would see that as them being in different races and therefore breach sportsmanship.

As the event was the Draycote Dash does the phantom have grounds against sportsmanship for the Dash or as its also the Sailjuice does that mean that its ok for them to interfere??

Either way I find it very rewarding that they messed up and came in 3rd overall

 
 


-------------
Phantom "Little Monster"
1404


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:52pm
oh yes keep away from the lasers - thats a true thing!


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Little Monster

The discussion of match racing a slower boat within the same race, such as a handicap or pursuit, is clear that its just unfortunate for the slower boat. I have done it and had it done to, its just part of racing.

However the debate following the weekend is slightly different in that the Fireball was not competing on the same start as the slower phantom. They started their race and waited 5 mins above the line for the phantom to start.

In normal circumstances I would see that as them being in different races and therefore breach sportsmanship.

As the event was the Draycote Dash does the phantom have grounds against sportsmanship for the Dash or as its also the Sailjuice does that mean that its ok for them to interfere??

Either way I find it very rewarding that they messed up and came in 3rd overall

 
 

well if they were on separate races (starts) then I personally think this is bang out of order... is it illegal under RRS?


Posted By: Phantom Titch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:12pm
Same series so its OK unders RRS but should it be changed is the question?

-------------
Titch ~:-))


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:18pm
no its not clearly OK under RRS


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:20pm
well if its okay, its okay I guess.... still think its the actions of a t**ser to target a boat on separate start from his own though.

If the series competition didn't allow for the two compete on the same track again, then tough luck... as it did, surely the deciding factor should have been the pursuit race, when the fireball could have caught the Phantom up and then dicked him down the pack if match racing was the way he wanted to play it.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:22pm
Was it one race started in flights or two/more races?



Posted By: Phantom Titch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:23pm
Separate starts on same course... but results pushed into same series..

-------------
Titch ~:-))


Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:26pm
Several races.  The fireball went after the phantom, the scorpion and the laser over the weekend.

-------------


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by Little Monster

The discussion of match racing a slower boat within the same race, such as a handicap or pursuit, is clear that its just unfortunate for the slower boat. I have done it and had it done to, its just part of racing.

However the debate following the weekend is slightly different in that the Fireball was not competing on the same start as the slower phantom. They started their race and waited 5 mins above the line for the phantom to start.

In normal circumstances I would see that as them being in different races and therefore breach sportsmanship.

As the event was the Draycote Dash does the phantom have grounds against sportsmanship for the Dash or as its also the Sailjuice does that mean that its ok for them to interfere??

Either way I find it very rewarding that they messed up and came in 3rd overall

 
 

well if they were on separate races (starts) then I personally think this is bang out of order... is it illegal under RRS?
Think if it's different start times it is protestable under rule 2 or 69 'Gamesmanship, defined as behaviour of questionable fairness but not strictly illegal tactics ' from the RYA 


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Fraggle

Several races.  The fireball went after the phantom, the scorpion and the laser over the weekend.
 
I am pretty sure that any PC committe worth it's salt would find a way to penalise the perpetartor under rule 2/rule 69.
 
This is clearly a case of going after boats in different starts (which probably count as different races although the results are lumped in to 1 for the overall series).
 
Bang out of order, I hope they read this forum!
 
My personal view is that this kind of tactic of using the rules to sail another boat out of a race should be a clear rule 2/rule 69 violation as the intent is unsportmanslike even if the actual tactic does not breach any other rules.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Morewindplease
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:50pm
Prizes for the top 3 boats were nice, I guess guarenteeing a top 3 place is pretty important.
 
Copied from the Sail Juice Web site
For the top three boats overall, a choice of the following options (1st place gets first choice, then 2nd, then 3rd):


    •    £200 of goodies from Rooster Sailing
    •    £200 voucher to spend with Hyde Sails
    •    £200 voucher to spend with Ovington Boats

£100 Holt vouchers will go to the:
    •    Overall winner of the SailJuice Global Warm-Up
    •    Winner of the largest class fleet (ie the class with the most number of boats entered in the Series)
    •    ‘Last Boat Afloat’: Bottom-placed boat to have a finishing place score in all five events.

    •    Top-placed Laser (Standard/Radial/4.7) in series: brand new sail from Laser Performance
    •    Lower-placed Laser (Standard/Radial/4.7) to have completed at least four events in the Series: brand new sail from Laser Performance

    •    Top-placed RS dinghy: £100 voucher from RS Sailing
    •    Lower-placed RS dinghy to have completed at least four events in the Series: £50 voucher from RS Sailing

    •    There are also six e-subscriptions from Yachts & Yachting to given to competitors who completed four or more events, with winners to be picked from a hat.

Prize winners are asked to attend a photoshoot at the Volvo RYA Dinghy Show on 3 March 2012 in order to guarantee receiving their prizes. Prize winners who cannot attend in person are asked to have a photo taken with their prize.
Any disputes over the allocation of prizes will be determined by the Organising Authority.




Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:56pm
23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg.

That's the rule in question.
If the boats are sailing the same sequence of marks to score in the same series, then I don't think the five minute difference in start time counts for much.
It appears to be scored as one race.
If someone felt agrieved they should have protetested.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg.

That's the rule in question.
If the boats are sailing the same sequence of marks to score in the same series, then I don't think the five minute difference in start time counts for much.
It appears to be scored as one race.
If someone felt agrieved they should have protetested.
 
Correct
 
And as we all know Proper Course is the course a boat would sail to complete the course in the absence of other boats. Therefore the proer cours argument is right out of the window (IMO).
 
I think on the whole we all agree this practice is questioable (or downright out of order). The question is can anything be done to prevent it and what should we do in the meantime (aside from give perpeatrators a hard time).
 
There are times that we all have made someone go the long way around us or maybe sailed them a little bit out of the way to gain a tactical advantage at the next mark or had a loose cover on them to prevent them overtaking. In my view this is acceptable and part of the game that is sailing. Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable. The question is where the line should be drawn.
 
As you have alreadysaid the aggrieved parties should have protested (as it was done to 3 different boats in 3 different races).


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:25pm
..... Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable.........


Sorry, that is simply untrue.
As has been established with clarification from the RYA.
You can sail another boat down the fleet in an attempt to better you place.
23.2 is the rule which places limits on it and that does not appear to have been broken.

There would appear to be a body of opinion that the rules need to be changed ( I would be happy to see a change too) but that is irrelevant.


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:27pm
but what can you do in terms of rules to stop interference by a boat in a different race or even by a boat not racing but just buggering  people about?


Posted By: LASERNUT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:34pm
As the fireball was on the SAME leg and was racing one on one with all other boats there was not much that could be done with the rules. He just waited.
Different starts doesn't make much of a difference either. Pursuits have lots of starts!


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

..... Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable.........


Sorry, that is simply untrue.
As has been established with clarification from the RYA.
You can sail another boat down the fleet in an attempt to better you place.
23.2 is the rule which places limits on it and that does not appear to have been broken.

There would appear to be a body of opinion that the rules need to be changed ( I would be happy to see a change too) but that is irrelevant.
 
I said 'acceptable' and not 'illegal', there is no requirement for the RYA to clarify that.
 
What can be done about it is a completely different subject.
 
There are those who think this is clearly an 'acceptable' practice and part of the game. There are also those who find is clearly distasteful and that it goes against the general principles of sportsmanlike behaviour.
 
Were I one of the affected competitors (oh to be as good as the helm of the Laser) I would definitely have chucked a protest in. the question is does a different start count as a different race (which is a matter for the PC when deciding if the protest is valid).


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Little Monster
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:01pm

Jeffers

I can’t see how you can differentiate between tacking on somebody to slow them down and sailing them off the course.

I watched Sheidt (if that’s how you spell it) and Bens brilliance at the Olympics when Robert sailed Ben over the line for a Black flag (Atlanta I think) and then Ben returned the favour in Sydney sailing him down the pan. I have used them in the last race of a series to ensure a series win and will continue to do so if I ever get into a situation where I need to again (fat chance but there you go…).

If you target somebody and can’t improve your score then you breach Rule 2 and should have a Rule 69 hearing in my opinion.  So it becomes a question of when and where you do it. 

The art of match racing an opponent should not be lost its just that the Sailjuice Series is so unique I don’t think that the various SI’s and the way the results are combined holds up to the level of competitiveness at the top end of the fleet.

The situation at the weekend is a strange one in that the Fireball match raced the phantom off the water in the first race of the Dash. They were racing in different fleets with different starts but the results were combined.

Here in lies the crux the Fireball went after the Phantom to get a series score but in doing so did not improve their score within the Dash as it was the first race thus breaching Rule 2. Which event takes precedence within a hearing??  As I understand it there was no mention of the Sailjuice series within the SI's for the Dash so that it must be the event first.

The discussion should be about the Sailjuice and whether these situations are desired and if not how they can be outlawed in the future. It’s complex as different events are on a different basis i.e the Bloody Mary is a pursuit but the Grafham Grand Prix gives class results as they are run of different courses.

The Sailjuice started out as being a bit of fun to encourage people to get onto the water during the winter. I am certain that they didn’t want to encourage this behavior and hope that they find a way of dealing with it.

On the whole the Sailjuice is a fantastic concept and the issues only affect a few at the top because for the most part those taking part just want to be on the water and have fun with their mates.



-------------
Phantom "Little Monster"
1404


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Little Monster

Jeffers

 

I can’t see how you can differentiate between tacking on somebody to slow them down and sailing them off the course. 

 

I watched Sheidt (if that’s how you spell it) and Bens brilliance at the Olympics when Robert sailed Ben over the line for a Black flag (Atlanta I think) and then Ben returned the favour in Sydney sailing him down the pan.  I have used them in the last race of a series to ensure a series win and will continue to do so if I ever get into a situation where I need to again (fat chance but there you go…). 

If you target somebody and can’t improve your score then you breach Rule 2 and should have a Rule 69 hearing in my opinion. So it becomes a question of when and where you do it.The art of match racing an opponent should not be lost its just that the Sailjuice Series is so unique I don’t think that the various SI’s and the way the results are combined holds up to the level of competitiveness at the top end of the fleet.

 

The situation at the weekend is a strange one in that the Fireball match raced the phantom off the water in the first race of the Dash.  They were racing in different fleets with different starts but the results were combined. 

 

Its arguable that the Fireball improved his position in the Series but within the Dash itself is guilty of being unsportsmanlike as it was the first race.

 

The discussion should be about the Sailjuice and whether these situations are desired and if not how they can be outlawed in the future.  It’s complex as different events are on a different basis i.e the Bloody Mary is a pursuit but the Grafham Grand Prix gives class results as they are run of different courses.

 

The Sailjuice started out as being a bit of fun to encourage people to get onto the water during the winter.  I am certain that they didn’t want to encourage this behavior and hope that they find a way of dealing with it.

On the whole the Sailjuice is a fantastic concept and the issues only affect a few at the top because for the most part those taking part just want to be on the water and have fun with their mates.

+1


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:31pm
Don't expect a rapid answer from the authorities. I have a protest-committee question submitted (now over 6-months ago) regarding 1-on-1 match racing in a fleet by boats of very different speeds.

One boat was lapping the other when they found themselves on the same 'leg' [defining 'leg' as between the same marks] but on different 'legs' [defining 'legs' as subsequent parts of the course]; the question obviously asked for clarification of 'leg', in order to define whether the fast boat was permitted to manoeuvre against the smaller one (and in this case intimidate her, and slow her to gain a series result).

It seems to me that the same issue is important here, whether by having different starts, it could be said that the 2 boats were by definition on different legs.

I'm sure the pundits here will have their opinions, but I wait for my answer from the authorities.



-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:45pm
By the way, my Protest Committee had found that, Yes, the tactic was permissible.
Boats that meet on different rounds, of the same race, but on the same leg (mark-to-mark) are permitted to manoeuvre against each other.

It seemed unfair; hence the deeper question.

Nevertheless, that clarification was requested, and if an answer had resulted, maybe could have been applied to this situation. I think the point raised in this forum of Proper Course is particularly interesting and relevant for needing to, "...... finish as soon as possible ....".



-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:51pm
It seems to me that the same issue is important here, whether by having different starts, it could be said that the 2 boats were by definition on different legs.

I'm sure the pundits here will have their opinions, but I wait for my answer from the authorities.

[/QUOTE]

I think your's is an interesting question but it doesn't apply here.  Because the Fireball had slowed it was on the same leg, ie rounding the same mark in the same order for the same number of times.

And as has been pointed out the limitations on the boat sailing back are only those within 23.2.

Someone has pointed out that this is only allowed where the aggressor can improve her position and questioned whether it could therefore have been outside the rules to do it in the first race of the Dash.  This rule is surely designed to avoid vexatious, gratuitous use of the match racing technique, where no benefit is possible, or to limit any "team raing" between mates.  So for me since the Sailjuice result could be improved I;m OK with that.

Interestingly 5 DD places would have given the Fireball the win, 3 second.  I reskon that without the killer shut off in race 6 which promoted the slow fleet they would probably have been good for the 25 points or so to achieve that. 


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:05pm
So personally I'm happy that it was legal.  So what of the question whether it was fair.  I had not previously thought about a (much) faster boat and this situation.  That certainly makes it easier for the fast boat - but does easier make it more wrong?  Not to me.  In a sense it's no different from a  heavy crew who need a points differential on a light boat adopting the technique when they get to the last race of the nationals and find a Force 1 - so they have to do it through sailing against the discard.

More than that - in conditions which do not favout you on handicap why not exploit the performance of your boat in other ways.

I think tactics like this enrich our sport - I had an interesting chat with a Dad who didn't like the example to his lad.....but hey life's like that too!  And you have to consider the consequences of a rule change which would create the much worse situation where people would have to do it be stealth (if they wanted to win that much! - and how do you judge between a tight cover and sailing someone back without mind reading?).

And I think there tends to be a split by fleet level and by class on this.  Certainly I don't see any protests or much whingeing from those affected.  Although I understand teh Phantom was a tad upset.....but took no protest action.

So if I was the Fireball I'd have no guilt - but I would regret doing it because when I analysed the results I'd think I either didn't do enough or should have done less and backed myself to be a few places better.




Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by sargesail

I think your's is an interesting question but it doesn't apply here.  Because the Fireball had slowed it was on the same leg, ie rounding the same mark in the same order for the same number of times.
Disagree the "Same Leg" presumption. You are wrong !

Surely,
 a "Leg" commences after the "Start";  there is no "Leg" to sail before a "Start"

QED:
If there are different "Starts", then de-facto, there are different "First Legs"; I have a problem extending this argument beyond the first "Mark".

Because the Fireball had slowed, it was Not sailing its "Proper Course", within the requirements of accepting that the 2-boats were on different legs, as defined within the argument above.
And therefore, being on a different first-leg, was barred from manoeuvring against a different-start boat.


Pushing the limits of definitions ?


-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:40pm
A leg is the course between two marks.  I think if we were talking different laps you might be right but that's not the case here. (Your query will tell you - although I'm surprised its not in the case law).  The key point is that they are sailing in the same race.  I would absolutely agree with you if it was different starts and different races, but it's not.  

The Fireball could sail its proper course with its sails completely out, but it would still be its proper course).  But you are misunderstanding the intent behind the rule.  This is designed to for the sitaution where the course has a 90% rounding from a run (ie to a beam reach) and the lead boat tacks back onto starboard to collect a boat still coming down the run - he would not be sailing his proper course and it would not be legit.  If the mark rounding were back upwind on to a beat then he could do just that (as long as it is legit on other rules) but he could not then tack and bear away in order to get beneath the other boat again.

Lots of people read what they want to on this issue, not what is in the rules.


Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:52pm
'Legal' or not ....but is it 'acceptable' in a largely amateur sport and at a handicap event should be the question posed and addressed.  If it is totally 'acceptable' then it is indeed a sad day for all. 

If I was sponsoring the series or event I'd withdraw all support until such practices were satisfactorily outlawed.   Anyone benefitting should should think about  donating any 'gains' to a suitable charity imo.

Mike L.


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:53pm
I think Oulton Ben has a point - the slower boat was not on a leg until she started, therefore the faster boat was on a different leg and not sailing her proper course.

Interestingly enough the series organiser, Andy Rice, wrote an article coming out against sailing boats down the fleet in his Y&Y column recently. And that includes Ainslie's epic against Scheidt. So that would suggest that this tactic is against the spirit of the SJ series.

Clutching at straws here, but is there a definition of what constitutes a series? You could argue that a Series needs three things; its own entry, a NoR and SI's. The SJ series had a NoR, but did it have an expicit entry process and SI's? If not, the Sail Juice events may not actually be a series and therefore the Fireball's actions were not advantageous to getting their best result at the regatta in which they were actually competing - the Draycote Dash - which they are obliged to do.

Of course, it's all just meant to be a bit of fun so it seems a shame to take it all so seriously. That's for the other 5 days of the week.

-------------


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by sargesail

A leg is the course between two marks. .......
..... (Your query will tell you - although I'm surprised its not in the case law). .....
...... The key point is that they are sailing in the same race.  I would absolutely agree with you if it was different starts and different races, but it's not. ..... 
Taking your own words about being selective in personal wishes and not reading what is in the RRS:-

1st point:   "Leg" in the RRS is not in italics, and therefore not defined; my Protest Committee query was seeking a Case-Law definition of not just "Leg", but "Same + Leg".

2nd point:    I concur with your surprise at the Time it has taken Not to receive a reply; indeed my PC included a Very Highly regarded member of the authorities' (note the plural) rules committees !

3rd point:    Agree also that we're talking Same-Race, but you fail to answer the "Implication" of the RRS that Legs are bounded by Marks-of-the-Course, that only come into play At the Start; Different Starts therefore Imply Different Legs. I carefully choose the word "Imply", above, as I am trying to read the RRS Very Carefully !

It appears totally legal for one fleet in an early start to manoeuvre against a fleet from a later start, but NOT ON THE FIRST LEG from their own start. They must clearly be On-The-Same-Leg to allow this.


-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: Little Monster
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by Peaky


Clutching at straws here, but is there a definition of what constitutes a series? You could argue that a Series needs three things; its own entry, a NoR and SI's. The SJ series had a NoR, but did it have an expicit entry process and SI's? If not, the Sail Juice events may not actually be a series and therefore the Fireball's actions were not advantageous to getting their best result at the regatta in which they were actually competing - the Draycote Dash - which they are obliged to do.

 
I think what is more important here is that the Draycote Dash event SI's and NoR do not (as I understand) refer to the SJ Series at all.  The races sailed are therefore part of the Dash only and if anybody else wants to use the results to calculate a seperate series then thats their business.  The name of the event that would have been put on the Protest Form, if anybody had done so, would have been the Draycote Dash.
 
That to me suggests that the Fireball would have breached Rule 2 as it was the first race of the event.


-------------
Phantom "Little Monster"
1404


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 8:22am
3rd point:    Agree also that we're talking Same-Race, but you fail to answer the "Implication" of the RRS that Legs are bounded by Marks-of-the-Course, that only come into play At the Start; Different Starts therefore Imply Different Legs. I carefully choose the word "Imply", above, as I am trying to read the RRS Very Carefully !

Not sure I fokkow your logic at all there.  

Surely Boat 1 starts - it is on the leg to mark 1.  3 minutes later boat 2 starts - until one of them rounds mark 1 they are on the same leg.  When they have both rounded mark 1 they are on the same leg again.

It appears totally legal for one fleet in an early start to manoeuvre against a fleet from a later start, but NOT ON THE FIRST LEG from their own start. They must clearly be On-The-Same-Leg to allow this.
[/QUOTE]

I think there are some under the impression that the Fireball manouevrred against an opponent before the opponent started.  That's not the case, but I also don't think it's what you're saying here.  I think your implication is that the Fireball can't sail other than her proper course until the other boat has started.  I can't see where you get that from in Rule 23.2:

23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg

If it is not actually interfering it can do what it wants.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 8:48am
I can't see that having the start in flights afects this at all - it is quite common at narrow river clubs, where 1/2 the fleet might start 2minutes after, but the earlier starting boats are quite within their rights to stop a later starting boat from overtaking, however soon after the start.

The 1st race arguement holds water, provided it is illegal to sail someone down the fleet in the 1st race of the last class open meeting of the year in order to win the traveller trophy?

What I can't work out is that if this Fireball (I've not looked at the results, so dunno who it is) is a fast enough boat to have been in with a chance of winning the sailjuice event, he didn't trust his ability enough to try and win the Dash, and with it the whole winter series?


-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:19am
I'm not sure the 'first race' thing has any foundations.
If a boat knows who its rival is, I suspect it could just as legitimately sail it out of the first race as the last race?
Suppose the fleet was a one design, where everybody knew the top sailors, and it was a commonly held view that either A or B were expected to win the regatta.


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:29am
Originally posted by sargesail

..... Surely Boat 1 starts - it is on the leg to mark 1.  3 minutes later boat 2 starts - until one of them rounds mark 1 they are on the same leg.  When they have both rounded mark 1 they are on the same leg again.

..... I think there are some under the impression that the Fireball manouevrred against an opponent before the opponent started.  That's not the case, but I also don't think it's what you're saying here.  I think your implication is that the Fireball can't sail other than her proper course until the other boat has started.  I can't see where you get that from in Rule 23.2:

..... If it is not actually interfering it can do what it wants. 
After a good night's sleep ..... we're at it again, Yay !
Good Morning Sargesail.

2nd & 3rd points first:- Yes I agree, the Fireball can sail her 1st leg in whatever manner she likes (even hovering like a Sparrowhawk looking for its kill); at this point the Phantom still waiting to start, has no proper course.

1st point:- Here is where we appear to disagree.
Before the Phantom starts:
    only the Fireball has a leg to sail, bounded at one end by her start, and at the other end by Mark-1.

After the Phantom starts:
    they both have a leg to continue to sail, or commence sailing respectively, equally bounded at one end by their respective starts, and by the same Mark-1 at the other.

Although geographically the 2 legs appear the same, because they had different start-points in time, they must be defined as different legs;
therefore if one boat interferes with the other during its own first-leg, it is doing so against a boat on a different first leg and therefore illegal.

I have to admit that this is a new way of looking at this issue in a manner that I had Not thought of before; my own gut feeling was to agree with you Sargesail, that the Fireball could manoeuvre in whatever manner it wished, however the more I looked into the RRSs the more I became convinced of a different argument.
Every now and again someone comes up with a new interpretation of the RRS that possibly goes against accepted practice.


I'm still waiting for an answer to my 6-month old official query to define "Same-Leg"; hey-ho ?

This IS fun !    he-he !


-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:51am
I tend to agree with RS400at C's point about the first race  - it could be beneficial to your overall result to sail a top guy down the fleet if you got the chance in the first race
 
but then, while I like OultonBen's 'space-time' argument about the two legs after the two start times being different and think that technically from a physics point of view it is correct, I doubt the agrument will be won because in ordinary life most people don't think that way.
 


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:17am
Originally posted by r2d2

..... but then, while I like OultonBen's 'space-time' argument about the two legs after the two start times being different and think that technically from a physics point of view it is correct, I doubt the agrument will be won because in ordinary life most people don't think that way.
..... and if they moved really, Really Fast, they could exist in 2 different places at the same time and totally interfere with each other .....
However in ordinary life most people don't think that way at all !
He-he, the musings of a Physics teacher chasing Schroedinger's Cat !



-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:23am
The argument that it's a different leg if the two boats started it at different times does not hold water, since that must be the case on every leg apart from the first. The two boats won't have rounded the previous mark simultaneously.


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:28am
that's correct, the concept of boats being on the same leg seems to fall down completely Wink


Posted By: Phantom Titch
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:29am
OK so we have discussed the rules, Thanks
 
But then if a "faster" boat want to march race a slower boat, the faster boat always has the advange, when I say faster I mean different fleet, Laser v Topper for instance. As the Topper how can you win?


-------------
Titch ~:-))


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 10:37am
well I'm not in favour of the faster boat hunting the slower one - but if they do do it, there isn't much the slower boat can do


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:02am
Originally posted by Phantom Titch

..... But then if a "faster" boat want to march race a slower boat, the faster boat always has the advange, when I say faster I mean different fleet, Laser v Topper for instance. As the Topper how can you win?
Protest .... and this is what the Phantom did Not do !

2 FAIR SAILING

A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized

principles of sportsmanship and fair play.


The RRS actually mentions "Fairness", and "Recognised Principles".




-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:06am
Originally posted by RS400atC

The argument that it's a different leg if the two boats started it at different times does not hold water, since that must be the case on every leg apart from the first. The two boats won't have rounded the previous mark simultaneously.
Yep, I was starting to notice that one myself !

Hmmmm, as said before, and repeated, I'm still waiting for the authorities to respond to my official query to define "Leg" and "Same Leg".
A definition, or set of definitions, would be most useful.



-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:08am
I think you are over analysing this folks. Sailing someone else down the fleet is basically allowed.

However...

Rule 2 is a fundamental rule and it never turns off. But it also has a pretty high bar.

2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized
principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized
under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles
have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be
excluded from the boat’s series score.


OK, so recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play always apply. Agreed?

OK, so would it be in acordance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and *fair play* for a 49er to cover an Oppie out of a race? Talk to the man in the street or anyone else and I reckon you'll get a no.
On the other hand is it legitimate between two boats of different classes but almost exactly the same speed?
I'd say clearly yes.

OK, so somewhere between the two is a large gray area, and the rule says "clearly", so a gray area won't do. But at some point I think covering a boat of much slower performance breaches recognised principles of sportsmanship or fair play: probably at the point where the performance is so disaprate that no amount of skill on the part of the covered boat can get them clear.

But basically its down to a Protest committee, and if I were on that PC I'd bump it straight up to the RYA for confirmation...


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:22am
JimC,
Yes, Yes, Yes,
Agreed.

Its just that bumping-up appears to take soooooo lonnngg, that we're all here trying to work out our own answer.



-------------
No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: mittens
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 1:20pm
Whilst the analysis has been interesting and no doubt educational I think the answer is staring us in the face.  If it looks wrong then it is wrong.  Whether the rules say that or not in the technical detail it should still be caught in the ethics of our sport.
 
It is not "sporting" pure and simple.  It is not an image of sailing that I'd like to see reported (and I am frankly dreading the Olympics sailing coverage) or promoted.
 
I've never done it, won't do it and hope that no-one I associate with would do it either.
 
Chris.
 
 
 
 


-------------
Chris Roberts
Phantom 1395


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by JimC

I think you are over analysing this folks. Sailing someone else down the fleet is basically allowed.

However...

Rule 2 is a fundamental rule and it never turns off. But it also has a pretty high bar.

2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized
principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized
under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles
have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be
excluded from the boat’s series score.


OK, so recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play always apply. Agreed?

OK, so would it be in acordance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and *fair play* for a 49er to cover an Oppie out of a race? Talk to the man in the street or anyone else and I reckon you'll get a no.
On the other hand is it legitimate between two boats of different classes but almost exactly the same speed?
I'd say clearly yes.

OK, so somewhere between the two is a large gray area, and the rule says "clearly", so a gray area won't do. But at some point I think covering a boat of much slower performance breaches recognised principles of sportsmanship or fair play: probably at the point where the performance is so disaprate that no amount of skill on the part of the covered boat can get them clear.

But basically its down to a Protest committee, and if I were on that PC I'd bump it straight up to the RYA for confirmation...

Ohh this reminds me of the ac in 1985? dennis connors winged cat v's kiwi big boat. went to court over 'fair and equal contest' and got chucked (obviously different rulesbeing the ac but similar).
Also you never see this happen in cowes week or you do you? i know the dayboats tend to have different courses but often have the same first mark. I have never seen one boat attempt to sail a different fleet boat down for the chance to win white group (and thats for a rolex!) 
Does that mean yachties have kept more of the corinthian spirit than us dinghies guys???


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by blaze720

'Legal' or not ....but is it 'acceptable' in a largely amateur sport and at a handicap event should be the question posed and addressed.  If it is totally 'acceptable' then it is indeed a sad day for all. 

If I was sponsoring the series or event I'd withdraw all support until such practices were satisfactorily outlawed.   Anyone benefitting should should think about  donating any 'gains' to a suitable charity imo.

Mike L.
 
+1
Oh dear. Another year, another SJ controversy.
 
For what it is worth , my viewpoint is that a faster boat starting in a separate start 5 minutes ahead of a rival in a seperate start, has been given an obvious advantage, in that it could apply a very dubious tactic against the slower boat. If the start sequences were reversed, the opportunity would probably not have presented itself until very near the end of the race (if at all).
I think it is totally out of order, and wouldn't be suprised if SJ drop their association after all the hard work they have put in. What a shame.
 
Where will it all end? Maybe we could have team racing flights forfeiting there own race, holding back and joining the melee against a rival team starting later...as long as they are on the same leg of the course!!! Sorry, what a load of B*11*£&$!!!


Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 1:45pm
Ben, any chance of chasing the RYA for an answer, I will be DRO at some multiclass events this year, would be nice to know the legalities......

Jon

-------------
Blaze 711


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 2:00pm
Who remembers who came second?

Match race, threaten, bribe, swindle, protest and pump your way to first, climb the podium grab the pots and prizes and get your family to take photo's, they'll be soooooo proud.



.. or go out to have a good time, enjoy your boat and the racing and have a beer afterwards (or 3), just let the numb-n*ts who want to do this stuff get on with it


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by fudheid

Ohh this reminds me of the ac in 1985? dennis connors winged cat v's kiwi big boat. went to court over 'fair and equal contest' and got chucked (obviously different rulesbeing the ac but similar).

Very different. Nothing to do with the Racing Rules (which are the same for the AC as any other event) and all to do with the American legal system.


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 7:03pm
who are the guys in the Furball? What club do they sail for

I've got no issue with a bit of Match Racing to win the Merlin Nationals (or any other nationals), but to do it against a slower boat in the first race of a 'fun' event without much at stake..

Poor show chaps. I hope they don't have the brass neck to turn up to the prize giving..


Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by laser4000

who are the guys in the Furball? What club do they sail for

I've got no issue with a bit of Match Racing to win the Merlin Nationals (or any other nationals), but to do it against a slower boat in the first race of a 'fun' event without much at stake..

Poor show chaps. I hope they don't have the brass neck to turn up to the prize giving..

Hi laser 4000,

http://www.roostersailing.com/wordpress/?p=2264

The beginning of the second paragraph make interesting reading.  He also sails Miracles.  I wonder how he would have felt if he had been in a Miracle and a Phantom had pulled this stroke on him.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)


Posted By: andy101
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:39pm
Rightly(not that I think it was) or wrongly it may have been a decision made on the basis of the conditions on the day & they felt assuming broadly equally matched crew a Fireball wasn't going to beat a Phantom in a light breeze on handicap....................not sure why he was worried about a laser though??Wink


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 9:58pm
Handicap events can’t be taken too seriously

Do you think it's supposed to be irony? Or what are they like when they are taking it seriously?Confused


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 28 Feb 12 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by iansmithofotley

Originally posted by laser4000

who are the guys in the Furball? What club do they sail for


Hi laser 4000,

http://www.roostersailing.com/wordpress/?p=2264

The beginning of the second paragraph make interesting reading.  He also sails Miracles.  I wonder how he would have felt if he had been in a Miracle and a Phantom had pulled this stroke on him.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)


So he's a rooster jockey then? I wonder what Mr. Cockerill thinks of his brand representation? 

Although reading the reference to 'exam's' in the blog i guess the errant furball sailor is some kind of student, so it could be possible to chalk up his match racing to 'over-enthusiasm perhaps?' - although doing it on race one (and hanging around 5 minutes to do so is still pretty p-poor for a winter warm-up event IMHO)


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 9:23am
Sorry for the delay, I did submit a question to the RYA RRAS and they directed me to ISAF Q&A article 2011-22 which states as follows:
 

A 001 Q&A 2011-022

Published: 28 November 2011

This Q&A replaces old Q&A A 001, withdrawn on 18 November 2011.

Situation

In a fleet race, Boat A adopts tactics that clearly interfere with and hinder Boat B's progress in the

race. While using those tactics, boat A does not break any rule, except possibly rule 2.

Question

In which of the following circumstances would Boat A’s tactics be considered unsportsmanlike and

a breach of rule 2?

(a) Boat A’s tactics benefit her series result.

(b) Boat A’s tactics increase her chances of gaining selection for another event.

(c) Boat A’s tactics increase her chances of gaining selection to her national team.

(d) Boat A and Boat C had agreed that they would both adopt tactics that benefited Boat C’s

series result.

(e) Boat A was attempting to worsen Boat B’s race or series score for reasons unconnected

with sport.

Answer

In circumstances (a), (b) and (c), Boat A would be in compliance with recognised principles of

sportsmanship and fair play because there is a sporting reason for her actions.

In circumstance (d), both Boat A and Boat C would clearly break rule 2. In addition, by receiving

help prohibited by rule 41 from Boat A, Boat C would also break rule 41.

In circumstance (e) Boat A would break rule 2 because, with no good sporting reason, her actions

would clearly break recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play.

Now it would appear that because there is a 'sporting' reason for the behaviour of the Fireball then it looks like this is may be legal. I have asked the very helpful person who has replied if this applies between boats that are on different starts or if this would require a seperate Q&A to be submitted (this could be the reason for the delay in response to other queries).
 
IMO this is still against fair and sportmanlike principles (if you can't win fairly then you should not win).
 
The other questions about the Dash NOR not mentioning it was part of the SJ series is a question for the organisers.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: tamsin
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 9:47am
I am more often than not sailing in handicap events as well as fleet racing. I have to admit sometimes it can be fun in fleet racing to "match race" someone out and we have done this on many occasions. I can't say I've ever done it in a first race though...its always been near the end of an event/series so I think it would be a shame to change this.
I sail in general a faster boat than most and if they are not in my race we ALWAYS sail underneath when able to...I've sailed enough junior boats to appreciate how annoying this is.
 
But if I'm racing slower boats in a handicap race starting with me or not and i meet them anywhere on the course-in relation to the "which leg" as sometimes we "lap them"- we treat them as if we are racing them, but this would never be to the extent of completly match racing them out as it seems a bit unfair to match race a "slower boat" but we would probably sail over them (to slow them down a bit, but hey we've spent ages "ping ponging" out of all the slow boats...) I certianly would NEVER hang around to do it like the fireball did.
 
looking at what the fireball did in this event, how embaressing for our sport? I would hate for one of my non-sailing friends to have witnessed that...Embarrassed there familes must be so proud....Clapand it didn't even pay...LOL


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 10:07am
I was aware of that ISAF Q&A, but I'm not convinced its completely applicable to boats of widely disparate performance. I tend to think of a fleet race as being boats of one class, although that may well not be the intent.


Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 10:34am
Originally posted by JimC

I was aware of that ISAF Q&A, but I'm not convinced its completely applicable to boats of widely disparate performance. I tend to think of a fleet race as being boats of one class, although that may well not be the intent.


In the case that Oultonben, has quoted, the boats are of one fleet, but do have a major speed difference. But they are in the same race, and a due to get the same regards from the rules.....

We just do not know which rules apply!!!!!

I cleverly sidestepped this protest, I could see where it would lead!!!

Jon

-------------
Blaze 711


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 11:38am
Originally posted by JimC

I was aware of that ISAF Q&A, but I'm not convinced its completely applicable to boats of widely disparate performance. I tend to think of a fleet race as being boats of one class, although that may well not be the intent.
 
I agree Jim, the other question is the fatc that they were on different starts which may mean they are on different leg 9effectively). This would need advice/ruling from someone in authority though, perhaps even an ISAF case or Q&A.
 
IMO if boats are sailing in the same 'fleet' regardless of whether this is a handicap fleet or a fleet of the same boats then this will apply.
 
In the case in question they are in different fleets (although the results have been amalgamated to give an over all winner).


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 11:58am
I don't think the word 'fleet' appears in the RRS.
The question is are they in the same race, and IMHO the answer is yes, as they are sailing around the same course to be in the same results for the same prizes.
They could have started together, but be in a separate race. That would be a different situation.

It's clearly a part of the rules that not everyone likes, but it is the rules, at least for now. I think changing it could have some poor consequences myself. Maybe it could be changed for these events, but it could be a hard line to draw in more subtle cases.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Feb 12 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

I don't think the word 'fleet' appears in the RRS.
The question is are they in the same race, and IMHO the answer is yes, as they are sailing around the same course to be in the same results for the same prizes.
They could have started together, but be in a separate race. That would be a different situation.

It's clearly a part of the rules that not everyone likes, but it is the rules, at least for now. I think changing it could have some poor consequences myself. Maybe it could be changed for these events, but it could be a hard line to draw in more subtle cases.

+1  I think there would be real detrimental consequences from any rule change that tried to deal with this.

And I wish people would stop hunting for a way to say it was outside the rules - same race, same leg, and a sporting benefit.  It's in.

And finally people have different motivations.  It might be that a series like this might be the pinnacle of their season rather than the nationals.  And among those who compete at the heights there is a recognition of the relevance of the tactic.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 6:07pm
An update on this.

The RYA RRAS are due to discuss this at their next meeting so have declined to comment further.

It would appear they have had a fair few incidents like this not just at major championship/large event level and wish to discuss it.

It good to see there is passionate support for both sides of the argument on the forum.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 9:16pm
well 8 pages of computer jockeys save a few people who actually turned up and sailed the sailjuice events and the dash.
match racing is part of the sport sam and richard are good friends of mine and bloody good sailers.
 
so heres my take define faster boat for me please!!!! reasoning make this statement is most people on here whinge about PYS being incorrect the phantom being an absolute bandit. so when PYS suits your argument its the deciding factor on boat speed.
 
sportsmanship match racing is part of the sport in any field of play. i believe the phantom comes under the lipstick classes mentioned in other posts so is that sporting having a modified boat from stock handicap unfair advantage not sporting. i doubt it
 
no rules were broken so no foul but hey some armchair jockeys have kicked off again same as last year saying its unfair. some posted about giving them a hard time about their actions do that ont he race course and you'll be in a protest for use of threating language as it can be construed.
 
rant over
 
 


-------------
(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407

Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com


Posted By: andy101
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 9:28pm
Works the other way with a Fireball they have a sweet spot on PY in some conditions so can't really have it both ways.
Not sure many people are really having a go at them more commenting on a perception it wasn't fair - they also appear to have done it to the laser & it would need to be a pretty short tight course for a laser to be quicker than a Fireball..........
 
Anyway reading the comments Andy Rice has just posted on the website front page they are regreting it & we have all done things we subsequently regret at some point.........!!Geek


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 01 Mar 12 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Neal_g


sportsmanship match racing is part of the sport in any field of play. i believe the phantom comes under the lipstick classes mentioned in other posts so is that sporting having a modified boat from stock handicap unfair advantage not sporting. i doubt it 

Whatever the feeling about what the Fireball did to the Phantom, Laser or whatever is, to make a statement about the Phantom being a modified boat from stock handicap and it is not sporting is unfair. The Phantom has been in this configuration for approximately 10 years. It is not the boats fault that until recently the PY system is not fast enough to keep up with the performance increase that has come with the 'lipsticking' of the class. Has anything ever been done to the Fireball within the class rules that increased performance? If so then it has been 'lipsticked' too. Recently though the PY has come down from 1051 to 1030 and in the instances of the PY in this Sailjuice series is lower (I believe, sorry haven't actually checked). The Phantom is faster than a Fireball in light stuff, as you would expect it to be to be honest. It has virtually the same mainsail and only one bod onboard, which gives it a advantage. The Fireball however disappears from a Phantom in a force 3 and above. Does that mean that its PY is fair, I doubt it, but thats what happens with PY's. You cannot satisfy everyone all of the time.

Bearing this in mind you can hardly call it unsporting, it has nothing to do with the helm. Deliberately sailing someone down a fleet to gain advantage could however be called unsporting, depending on your views of it as it is the boat crews responsibility. I'm not saying at this point that what the Fireball did was unsporting, it was within the rules and therefore there is little that can be done. I would certainly be p*ssed off if it happened to me knowing that while totally legal, the Fireball felt that it couldn't beat me without resorting to this tactic, though this obviously makes me a hypocrite as I would do the same in a single class race... Confused

Don't forget that while the Fireball could do this to the Phantom/Laser, etc in lightwinds, this could not be reciprocated when windier as the Fireball would just sail away. Surely it is only a fair action if the same action could be taken by both parties in the different wind strengths? In this instance it must be said that it couldn't, therefore the Fireball has an unfair advantage over the slower boats.



-------------
Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 7:10am
true but I've been wanting to make the point of my last paragraph for ages but wanted to stay out of it, however a label of unsporting against a sailor because of the boat they sail is a step too far.

-------------
Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 7:56am
Originally posted by maxibuddah

true but I've been wanting to make the point of my last paragraph for ages but wanted to stay out of it, however a label of unsporting against a sailor because of the boat they sail is a step too far.
 
possibly but labeling a sailor unsporting as he has a good undertanding of the rules and uses them to his advantage  is exactly the same step too far.
 
the basic lack of rule observance is more unsporting and discourteous than actually using the rules correctly.


-------------
(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407

Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 8:09am
+1


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 8:22am
Originally posted by Neal_g

Originally posted by maxibuddah

true but I've been wanting to make the point of my last paragraph for ages but wanted to stay out of it, however a label of unsporting against a sailor because of the boat they sail is a step too far.

 

possibly but labeling a sailor unsporting as he has a good undertanding of the rules and uses them to his advantage  is exactly the same step too far.

 

the basic lack of rule observance is more unsporting and discourteous than actually using the rules correctly.


I would agree with your last point to an extent. if deliberate then yes, but for a lot of sailors,it is down to ignorance, which of course isn't really an excuse as they should know better. A deliberate action though is inexcusable and is cheating and unsporting. I personally class sailing a slower boat down when I know that they could never do it to also unsporting, but that is my opinion and each to their own. As you say they didn't break the rules and they did what they could to win overall and that is up to them. That is up to their conscience and I am not going to blame them while the rules allow it, its just that I wouldn't do it, that's all.

however my real point was not specifically at the sailors in the Fireball, hence the reason for not using their names, but more the actions that anyone could take in their position. I feel it is unfair and unsporting when someone can do what they did in those conditions, but the reciprocal cannot be done in the opposite conditions. If the slower boats could sail the faster boat down once the wind was up, fair enough but we all know that ain't going to happen.

And this is the crux of my point - It has to be able to happen both ways for it to be fair and in this example it cannot.

As for your original point, I've been thinking on the way to work and I think I know of anyone (though there might be someone of course) in the phantom class who has bought the boat specifically to win on a 'favourable' PY and therefore be labelled unsporting, which was your insinuation, and I do know a majority of the fleet.



-------------
Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: bob3021
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 9:36am
This is all such a pity - Sam is a very talented sailor and really didn't need to do this - am sure he knew what he was doing so to backtrack afterwards and apologise seems to be a bit strange.

Either you are happy to do it - so go do it and don't apologise

or you are not happy to do it


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 9:50am
probably felt that he had to from the backlash from forums such as these, left him in an almost untenable position. As he said in the statement, he had checked that the rules allowed this and therefore only sailed within the rules.

It seems to me that it could be construed as a conflict between the British sense of fair play against winning at all costs. They did nothing wrong but are perceived as being wrong because that is not what us Brits should do...blah, blah, blah. Note that the British sense of fair play didn't seem to exist when we were taking in the locals with a Winchester rifle and all they had were sharpened pieces of mango....

Now before you have a go at me for being hypocritical, I hope that I managed to get across that I am not blaming them per se but rather the rules that allow them to do so as being unfair, and if I haven't, I meant to so sorry if that is the case.

As for changing the rules, I have about as much chance of doing that as becoming the next Phantom national champ. None. the whole system is tied up on politics that I doubt even our national body has very much influence on the actual rules.

-------------
Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 10:22am
Not sure it's that hard to change the rules?
Can it be done at NoR/SI level in this case?
If so, a reasoned campaign to the relevant clubs might work.
Any thoughts?


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 3:07pm
Q&A -2010-38 clearly states that "match racing" in handicap fleets does not break rule2.

It is a pity no-one protested. Then our sport's dispute resolution process could have been used.

Gordon


-------------
Gordon


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 3:49pm
Gordon with all due respect I think your last post misses the point a bit - we (hopefully) understand the rules and the requirements for protests etc, but what is being questioned is whether the rules as they stand are sensible/fair


Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 5:01pm

Hi everyone,

 

Personally, in Handicap Racing, I do not think that it is practically possible to change or introduce new rules to cover the scenario of faster boats ‘match racing’, taking out, or whatever, slower boats.

 

As Neal Gibson has said, in another post, “what is faster”. How can it be defined?

For example, if you were to legislate using PY numbers to indicate faster or slower, then how could it be done?  How close or far away from each other would the numbers have to be to serve the desired purpose or meet any definitions in any proposed rules.  Using the Fireball and the Phantom as examples, the current RYA 2011/12 PY’s are Fireball 980 and Phantom 1030, using the Great Lakes Series numbers, I believe that the Fireball was 970 and the Phantom 1015 (these numbers were used at Grafham).

 

In my experience, using the current RYA, PY system, 20 is about equivalent to one minute in a one hour race.  So a Fireball is about two and a half minutes faster than a Phantom in a one hour race.  Obviously, this does not take into consideration the wind conditions, the shape of the course, the size of the water or the ability of the sailors, but it is a very basic guide.

 

So how can rules be made to cover what we are talking about, as Neal said, “what is faster’.  How many sailors know the PY numbers of every boat that they are sailing against in any fleet (you may know them at your own club).  How could any rules or sailing instructions be written to cover these situations.

 

Using my own club as an example, apart from open meetings, 90% of our racing is handicap racing.  Our handicap fleet consists of many different boats from Mirrors and Toppers right through to 49’ers and 800’s.

 

We have a very good 200 (PY 1057) sailor and a very good Finn (1060) sailor, so is it okay for one of them to sail the other out of a race in order to win a series?  Of course it is (I would suggest).  I am only taking about speed here, and not whether or not it is a good thing to do, bad etiquette, ungentlemanly conduct or unsporting, which is another issue .  But is it okay for a Finn (1060) to take out a Laser (1082).  How big must the gap be for it to be not okay.

 

So when you are talking about faster and slower the question would be ‘by how much’ and how do you choose a number to legislate upon.

 

In my view, the problem is unsolvable and just opens up another can of worms, which we don’t really need.  I think that this issue is best left as it is and, rightly or wrongly, left to the ‘unwritten rules’ of sailing, including fair play, etiquette, gentlemanly conduct and being 'sporting' (call it what you want), whether we like it or not.

 

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 5:15pm
Setting aside the 'faster' and 'slower' in all this. My overiding issue is a boat starts 3 minutes ahead 'in a seperate fleet' and has the advantage of waiting upwind for a rival... now surely that is not a fair situation from the outset... It may have been a little more palatable (not to my taste though) had they shared the same start. 


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 5:39pm
R2d2 -pt point is that because there was no protest our sport's dispute resolution process did not have a opportunity to decide whether the incident involved a breach of recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play.

I understand that the two boats were competing against each other in the same competition, even if there were separate starts for the fleets. if such is the case then the rules as they stand do not prohibit "match racing". This is acceptable behaviour for a large part of the sailing community, even though many participants at the event in question felt that it was not acceptable.

This is the second year running that there has been problems with this sereis. It may well be that some competitors are taking the event very seriously, for allsorts of different reasons. When this happens then the rules will be pushed to their limit. In which case, it may well be that the event format, or the whole basis of the competition needs to be examined.




-------------
Gordon


Posted By: Flick-Flock
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 5:44pm
I havn't had a chance to read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been said.

Surely you could just stipulate in the rules, or even the SI's, that a boat sailing in one fleet can't interfere with a boat sailing in another fleet? (i've got a feeling there's something about boats on different laps interfering with each other, but can't be sure)
That would certainly have stopped the Fireball waiting around, and then going after the boats in the slower fleet.


-------------
Swimming after Laser 5000 5069


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Flick-Flock

I havn't had a chance to read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been said.

Surely you could just stipulate in the rules, or even the SI's, that a boat sailing in one fleet can't interfere with a boat sailing in another fleet? (i've got a feeling there's something about boats on different laps interfering with each other, but can't be sure)
That would certainly have stopped the Fireball waiting around, and then going after the boats in the slower fleet.


A rule like that would stop you doing all sorts of things - luffing to keep clean air, positioning yourself at a mark to ensure you don't need to give water, and lots more. Given they were after the same prizes, you can't expect them not to interact at all, but there is a massive difference between the small things and what happened. Putting it down on paper is a whole lot harder to do.


-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by gordon


I understand that the two boats were competing against each other in the same competition, even if there were separate starts for the fleets. if such is the case then the rules as they stand do not prohibit "match racing". This is acceptable behaviour for a large part of the sailing community, even though many participants at the event in question felt that it was not acceptable.

This is the second year running that there has been problems with this sereis. It may well be that some competitors are taking the event very seriously, for allsorts of different reasons. When this happens then the rules will be pushed to their limit. In which case, it may well be that the event format, or the whole basis of the competition needs to be examined.
 
Gordon,
As someone else pointed out, The competitors that weekend were competing in the Draycote Dash. There was no mention in the D.D. notice of race or Sailing instructions of any parallel competition or scoring system. I think it is stretching credibility to use the Sail Juice series as a means to an end. What's to stop any of us sailing anyone else all over the pond (however much skill it may involve) in the first race of a competition, in the justification of some private side bet? 


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by gordon

This is the second year running that there has been problems with this sereis. It may well be that some competitors are taking the event very seriously, for allsorts of different reasons. When this happens then the rules will be pushed to their limit. In which case, it may well be that the event format, or the whole basis of the competition needs to be examined.
 
Hi Gordon
 
I agree with what you have said here - this is what I was suggesting in my last post (or do you see reviewing the event format as different to reviewing and possibly changing the rules or SIs?)
 
Dave


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 8:53pm
The relationship between DD and Sailjuice is similar to that between ISAF Olympic class events used by individualcountries as selection events. Cases and Q&A basically say that if there a race is partof any series (not necessarily the event itself) then any action that improves a boats place in any of the series is legitimate.

I can't helpfeeling that if the 2 boats involved had not been in fleets with serarate starts, but starting together, then no-one would have see a problem. The initial cause was to require boats that were in direct competition to start in separate races. Perhaps Sailjuice should be limited to pursuit races.

Gordon


-------------
Gordon


Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 02 Mar 12 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by gordon

The initial cause was to require boats that were in direct competition to start in separate races. Perhaps Sailjuice should be limited to pursuit races.

Gordon
 
Can't go for that. The best bit about the SJ Series is the different format of each individual event -
 
GGP - 2 handicap races in fleets
BM - one pursuit race
SN - 2 handicap races in fleets
TT - handicap races + pursuit race
DD - lots of shorts handicap races (dashes) + longer pursuit race.
 
Why muck about with a great idea (690 separate entrants this year was it?) because of a little jiggery pokery at the end? At least 688 had a great time.


-------------
Steve B
RS300 411
D-Zero 11

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page
D-Zero page


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 03 Mar 12 at 3:01pm
Are you so sure Steve
I suspect there were quite a few disgruntled entrants after they saw or heard what happened.
I suspect that since the Dash sailing instructions did not mention the sailjuice series, then the Fball was way out of order doing that in the first race. Shame no one protested, as this is behaviour we do not want to see in handicap racing. We don't see it at the big yachting regattas between fleets!

Andy



-------------
Andy Mck



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com