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Match Racing in Handicap fleets

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Topic: Match Racing in Handicap fleets
Posted By: Phantom Titch
Subject: Match Racing in Handicap fleets
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:10pm

Discussion Point for the forum:

Do you think that it is sportmanlike for a Faster boat to "Match Race" a slower boat to prevent Victory?
 
In a Handicap event.
 
Interested in your thoughs and perhaps a solution to overcome the advantage of the faster boat?


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Titch ~:-))



Replies:
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:12pm
surely if the slower boat is in contention to be 'matched raced' they'll win on corrected time anyway?


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:17pm
They might well win on corrected for that race - but if your looking at the series result it is a valid question. If they both finish well down the pan but only the faster boat can afford another bad result to discard they would come out on top.

In class fleets I think its a perfectly valid tactic - In handicap racing where one boat has a significant speed advantage: not so much. Definately unsportsmanlike in those circumstances.


Posted By: LASERNUT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:20pm
Not if the fast boat doesn't need the race.

I'm guessing this is about the fireball trying to sail out all the other boats for the sail juice series. They took me out in the first race and there was nothing i could do. Where they went wrong was they stopped doing it in the following races and just sailed. They should have spent all weekend taking us all out OR spent more time getting a good result. Not a bit of both.


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:23pm
At our club we have average points of races completed for duties so it is possible to affect someone elses score once you have all the good results you need. This has hints of the Merlin Nationals and not one we would want to encourage. I hope we are all too polite and not bothered with this tactic for what is afterall a fun race between friends on a Sunday morning.

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Phantom Titch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:24pm
So if it is "Unsportsmanlike" what rule could we envoke to prohibit such a dasdardly tactic?

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Titch ~:-))


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:29pm
I think it is reasonable for a slower boat to try to match race a faster boat to get a result, it happens in pursuit races. No one lets people just pass otherewise there would be no luffing rules etc.
Agree with rogue that its to late for the fast hcaper....he should be in front.
We often have to fight our way through slower boats and the general chat of 'your're beating us on hcap' tends to lead to a break of covering.

the point of hcap is your are racing the clock so you don't want to be titting around match racing if you do some one else will win...


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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:36pm
This sounds like one of those little quirks that would take an age to sort out, and still end up leaving a sour taste in the mouth if it's overly analysed and rules changed to accommodate something as vague as sportsmanship.  

I don't see a problem in match race tactics on the race course, it's part of sailing and some of the best races I've had have been for the tussles between a small group within the fleet.  Although personally I'd avoid it like the plague in a handicap race where your only true competitor is the clock.  

Part of sailing is anticipating the boats around you- breaking cover really isn't that hard, either through sailing skill or on the water 'negotiation'.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:39pm
You could protest under rule 2... Big question mark over whether you'd win or not, but the hassle and so on might educate the guilty party.

If the boats are pretty similar in performance you could make a case - especially if the faster boat manages to save their time or very close.

Otherwise I think the fast boat needs to look very hard at their conscience...


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:41pm
Originally posted by JimC

You could protest under rule 2... Big question mark over whether you'd win or not, but the hassle and so on might educate the guilty party.

If the boats are pretty similar in performance you could make a case - especially if the faster boat manages to save their time or very close.

Otherwise I think the fast boat needs to look very hard at their conscience...

conscience????LOL


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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:41pm
This has been done to death.
You can match race another boat, provided your intention is to improve your place in the race, series or regatta.


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

This has been done to death.
You can match race another boat, provided your intention is to improve your place in the race, series or regatta.

agreed


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:08pm
So it would be fair for, say, a Phantom, which has qualified for a club race series, to sail a Mirror, which needed a result to qualify, and a good result to overtake the Phantom in the standings, off the course?

The phantom would be fast enough to sail round and round the Mirror, and would be able to catch up to it whatever happens, and attack it again and again, and if no rules are broken by the Phantom, then there is nothing theMirror can do? In fact, as the Mirror is unlikely to get any form of redress, it wouldn't matter if the Phantom lost a (discardable) protest anyway - the damage has been done.

Mirror and Phantom are used just as 2 examples of boats of differing speeds, not because I think either class is more likely than any other to be involved in such things.


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by RS400atC

This has been done to death.
You can match race another boat, provided your intention is to improve your place in the race, series or regatta.

agreed
you can but I'm not sure you should
 
Rupert makes a good point (although I don't know why he thinks those big burly phantom boys would do that (to what would probably be a timid youth team in a mirror) more than anyone else (only kidding!)
 
rule 2 does exist, so the current rule already include fair play and sportsmanship - it is then just a matter of judgement about what is reasonable


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:33pm
you're right, I wouldn't...  but that's not to say I shouldn't.  If I'm one of those ultra competitive types (btw - I'm not), then it's not wrong- it's just the way I am and sailing against me would mean that my competitors could use that to their advantage also.  I know I've certainly psyched out faster boats into covering me before... only to crawl across the line 2 seconds behind them and beat them on handicap.

I've also had the cards turned racing a 100 against Albacores and Lasers... no point getting in tacking duel with them, you'll lose and lose badly!


Posted By: Little Monster
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:51pm

The discussion of match racing a slower boat within the same race, such as a handicap or pursuit, is clear that its just unfortunate for the slower boat. I have done it and had it done to, its just part of racing.

However the debate following the weekend is slightly different in that the Fireball was not competing on the same start as the slower phantom. They started their race and waited 5 mins above the line for the phantom to start.

In normal circumstances I would see that as them being in different races and therefore breach sportsmanship.

As the event was the Draycote Dash does the phantom have grounds against sportsmanship for the Dash or as its also the Sailjuice does that mean that its ok for them to interfere??

Either way I find it very rewarding that they messed up and came in 3rd overall

 
 


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Phantom "Little Monster"
1404


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:52pm
oh yes keep away from the lasers - thats a true thing!


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Little Monster

The discussion of match racing a slower boat within the same race, such as a handicap or pursuit, is clear that its just unfortunate for the slower boat. I have done it and had it done to, its just part of racing.

However the debate following the weekend is slightly different in that the Fireball was not competing on the same start as the slower phantom. They started their race and waited 5 mins above the line for the phantom to start.

In normal circumstances I would see that as them being in different races and therefore breach sportsmanship.

As the event was the Draycote Dash does the phantom have grounds against sportsmanship for the Dash or as its also the Sailjuice does that mean that its ok for them to interfere??

Either way I find it very rewarding that they messed up and came in 3rd overall

 
 

well if they were on separate races (starts) then I personally think this is bang out of order... is it illegal under RRS?


Posted By: Phantom Titch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:12pm
Same series so its OK unders RRS but should it be changed is the question?

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Titch ~:-))


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:18pm
no its not clearly OK under RRS


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:20pm
well if its okay, its okay I guess.... still think its the actions of a t**ser to target a boat on separate start from his own though.

If the series competition didn't allow for the two compete on the same track again, then tough luck... as it did, surely the deciding factor should have been the pursuit race, when the fireball could have caught the Phantom up and then dicked him down the pack if match racing was the way he wanted to play it.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:22pm
Was it one race started in flights or two/more races?



Posted By: Phantom Titch
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:23pm
Separate starts on same course... but results pushed into same series..

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Titch ~:-))


Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:26pm
Several races.  The fireball went after the phantom, the scorpion and the laser over the weekend.

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Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by Little Monster

The discussion of match racing a slower boat within the same race, such as a handicap or pursuit, is clear that its just unfortunate for the slower boat. I have done it and had it done to, its just part of racing.

However the debate following the weekend is slightly different in that the Fireball was not competing on the same start as the slower phantom. They started their race and waited 5 mins above the line for the phantom to start.

In normal circumstances I would see that as them being in different races and therefore breach sportsmanship.

As the event was the Draycote Dash does the phantom have grounds against sportsmanship for the Dash or as its also the Sailjuice does that mean that its ok for them to interfere??

Either way I find it very rewarding that they messed up and came in 3rd overall

 
 

well if they were on separate races (starts) then I personally think this is bang out of order... is it illegal under RRS?
Think if it's different start times it is protestable under rule 2 or 69 'Gamesmanship, defined as behaviour of questionable fairness but not strictly illegal tactics ' from the RYA 


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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by Fraggle

Several races.  The fireball went after the phantom, the scorpion and the laser over the weekend.
 
I am pretty sure that any PC committe worth it's salt would find a way to penalise the perpetartor under rule 2/rule 69.
 
This is clearly a case of going after boats in different starts (which probably count as different races although the results are lumped in to 1 for the overall series).
 
Bang out of order, I hope they read this forum!
 
My personal view is that this kind of tactic of using the rules to sail another boat out of a race should be a clear rule 2/rule 69 violation as the intent is unsportmanslike even if the actual tactic does not breach any other rules.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Morewindplease
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:50pm
Prizes for the top 3 boats were nice, I guess guarenteeing a top 3 place is pretty important.
 
Copied from the Sail Juice Web site
For the top three boats overall, a choice of the following options (1st place gets first choice, then 2nd, then 3rd):


    •    £200 of goodies from Rooster Sailing
    •    £200 voucher to spend with Hyde Sails
    •    £200 voucher to spend with Ovington Boats

£100 Holt vouchers will go to the:
    •    Overall winner of the SailJuice Global Warm-Up
    •    Winner of the largest class fleet (ie the class with the most number of boats entered in the Series)
    •    ‘Last Boat Afloat’: Bottom-placed boat to have a finishing place score in all five events.

    •    Top-placed Laser (Standard/Radial/4.7) in series: brand new sail from Laser Performance
    •    Lower-placed Laser (Standard/Radial/4.7) to have completed at least four events in the Series: brand new sail from Laser Performance

    •    Top-placed RS dinghy: £100 voucher from RS Sailing
    •    Lower-placed RS dinghy to have completed at least four events in the Series: £50 voucher from RS Sailing

    •    There are also six e-subscriptions from Yachts & Yachting to given to competitors who completed four or more events, with winners to be picked from a hat.

Prize winners are asked to attend a photoshoot at the Volvo RYA Dinghy Show on 3 March 2012 in order to guarantee receiving their prizes. Prize winners who cannot attend in person are asked to have a photo taken with their prize.
Any disputes over the allocation of prizes will be determined by the Organising Authority.




Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 3:56pm
23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg.

That's the rule in question.
If the boats are sailing the same sequence of marks to score in the same series, then I don't think the five minute difference in start time counts for much.
It appears to be scored as one race.
If someone felt agrieved they should have protetested.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

23.2 Except when sailing her proper course, a boat shall not interfere with
a boat taking a penalty or sailing on another leg.

That's the rule in question.
If the boats are sailing the same sequence of marks to score in the same series, then I don't think the five minute difference in start time counts for much.
It appears to be scored as one race.
If someone felt agrieved they should have protetested.
 
Correct
 
And as we all know Proper Course is the course a boat would sail to complete the course in the absence of other boats. Therefore the proer cours argument is right out of the window (IMO).
 
I think on the whole we all agree this practice is questioable (or downright out of order). The question is can anything be done to prevent it and what should we do in the meantime (aside from give perpeatrators a hard time).
 
There are times that we all have made someone go the long way around us or maybe sailed them a little bit out of the way to gain a tactical advantage at the next mark or had a loose cover on them to prevent them overtaking. In my view this is acceptable and part of the game that is sailing. Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable. The question is where the line should be drawn.
 
As you have alreadysaid the aggrieved parties should have protested (as it was done to 3 different boats in 3 different races).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:25pm
..... Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable.........


Sorry, that is simply untrue.
As has been established with clarification from the RYA.
You can sail another boat down the fleet in an attempt to better you place.
23.2 is the rule which places limits on it and that does not appear to have been broken.

There would appear to be a body of opinion that the rules need to be changed ( I would be happy to see a change too) but that is irrelevant.


Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:27pm
but what can you do in terms of rules to stop interference by a boat in a different race or even by a boat not racing but just buggering  people about?


Posted By: LASERNUT
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:34pm
As the fireball was on the SAME leg and was racing one on one with all other boats there was not much that could be done with the rules. He just waited.
Different starts doesn't make much of a difference either. Pursuits have lots of starts!


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

..... Sailing someone off the course is definitely not acceptable.........


Sorry, that is simply untrue.
As has been established with clarification from the RYA.
You can sail another boat down the fleet in an attempt to better you place.
23.2 is the rule which places limits on it and that does not appear to have been broken.

There would appear to be a body of opinion that the rules need to be changed ( I would be happy to see a change too) but that is irrelevant.
 
I said 'acceptable' and not 'illegal', there is no requirement for the RYA to clarify that.
 
What can be done about it is a completely different subject.
 
There are those who think this is clearly an 'acceptable' practice and part of the game. There are also those who find is clearly distasteful and that it goes against the general principles of sportsmanlike behaviour.
 
Were I one of the affected competitors (oh to be as good as the helm of the Laser) I would definitely have chucked a protest in. the question is does a different start count as a different race (which is a matter for the PC when deciding if the protest is valid).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Little Monster
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:01pm

Jeffers

I can’t see how you can differentiate between tacking on somebody to slow them down and sailing them off the course.

I watched Sheidt (if that’s how you spell it) and Bens brilliance at the Olympics when Robert sailed Ben over the line for a Black flag (Atlanta I think) and then Ben returned the favour in Sydney sailing him down the pan. I have used them in the last race of a series to ensure a series win and will continue to do so if I ever get into a situation where I need to again (fat chance but there you go…).

If you target somebody and can’t improve your score then you breach Rule 2 and should have a Rule 69 hearing in my opinion.  So it becomes a question of when and where you do it. 

The art of match racing an opponent should not be lost its just that the Sailjuice Series is so unique I don’t think that the various SI’s and the way the results are combined holds up to the level of competitiveness at the top end of the fleet.

The situation at the weekend is a strange one in that the Fireball match raced the phantom off the water in the first race of the Dash. They were racing in different fleets with different starts but the results were combined.

Here in lies the crux the Fireball went after the Phantom to get a series score but in doing so did not improve their score within the Dash as it was the first race thus breaching Rule 2. Which event takes precedence within a hearing??  As I understand it there was no mention of the Sailjuice series within the SI's for the Dash so that it must be the event first.

The discussion should be about the Sailjuice and whether these situations are desired and if not how they can be outlawed in the future. It’s complex as different events are on a different basis i.e the Bloody Mary is a pursuit but the Grafham Grand Prix gives class results as they are run of different courses.

The Sailjuice started out as being a bit of fun to encourage people to get onto the water during the winter. I am certain that they didn’t want to encourage this behavior and hope that they find a way of dealing with it.

On the whole the Sailjuice is a fantastic concept and the issues only affect a few at the top because for the most part those taking part just want to be on the water and have fun with their mates.



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Phantom "Little Monster"
1404


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Little Monster

Jeffers

 

I can’t see how you can differentiate between tacking on somebody to slow them down and sailing them off the course. 

 

I watched Sheidt (if that’s how you spell it) and Bens brilliance at the Olympics when Robert sailed Ben over the line for a Black flag (Atlanta I think) and then Ben returned the favour in Sydney sailing him down the pan.  I have used them in the last race of a series to ensure a series win and will continue to do so if I ever get into a situation where I need to again (fat chance but there you go…). 

If you target somebody and can’t improve your score then you breach Rule 2 and should have a Rule 69 hearing in my opinion. So it becomes a question of when and where you do it.The art of match racing an opponent should not be lost its just that the Sailjuice Series is so unique I don’t think that the various SI’s and the way the results are combined holds up to the level of competitiveness at the top end of the fleet.

 

The situation at the weekend is a strange one in that the Fireball match raced the phantom off the water in the first race of the Dash.  They were racing in different fleets with different starts but the results were combined. 

 

Its arguable that the Fireball improved his position in the Series but within the Dash itself is guilty of being unsportsmanlike as it was the first race.

 

The discussion should be about the Sailjuice and whether these situations are desired and if not how they can be outlawed in the future.  It’s complex as different events are on a different basis i.e the Bloody Mary is a pursuit but the Grafham Grand Prix gives class results as they are run of different courses.

 

The Sailjuice started out as being a bit of fun to encourage people to get onto the water during the winter.  I am certain that they didn’t want to encourage this behavior and hope that they find a way of dealing with it.

On the whole the Sailjuice is a fantastic concept and the issues only affect a few at the top because for the most part those taking part just want to be on the water and have fun with their mates.

+1


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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:31pm
Don't expect a rapid answer from the authorities. I have a protest-committee question submitted (now over 6-months ago) regarding 1-on-1 match racing in a fleet by boats of very different speeds.

One boat was lapping the other when they found themselves on the same 'leg' [defining 'leg' as between the same marks] but on different 'legs' [defining 'legs' as subsequent parts of the course]; the question obviously asked for clarification of 'leg', in order to define whether the fast boat was permitted to manoeuvre against the smaller one (and in this case intimidate her, and slow her to gain a series result).

It seems to me that the same issue is important here, whether by having different starts, it could be said that the 2 boats were by definition on different legs.

I'm sure the pundits here will have their opinions, but I wait for my answer from the authorities.



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No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:45pm
By the way, my Protest Committee had found that, Yes, the tactic was permissible.
Boats that meet on different rounds, of the same race, but on the same leg (mark-to-mark) are permitted to manoeuvre against each other.

It seemed unfair; hence the deeper question.

Nevertheless, that clarification was requested, and if an answer had resulted, maybe could have been applied to this situation. I think the point raised in this forum of Proper Course is particularly interesting and relevant for needing to, "...... finish as soon as possible ....".



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No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 9:51pm
It seems to me that the same issue is important here, whether by having different starts, it could be said that the 2 boats were by definition on different legs.

I'm sure the pundits here will have their opinions, but I wait for my answer from the authorities.

[/QUOTE]

I think your's is an interesting question but it doesn't apply here.  Because the Fireball had slowed it was on the same leg, ie rounding the same mark in the same order for the same number of times.

And as has been pointed out the limitations on the boat sailing back are only those within 23.2.

Someone has pointed out that this is only allowed where the aggressor can improve her position and questioned whether it could therefore have been outside the rules to do it in the first race of the Dash.  This rule is surely designed to avoid vexatious, gratuitous use of the match racing technique, where no benefit is possible, or to limit any "team raing" between mates.  So for me since the Sailjuice result could be improved I;m OK with that.

Interestingly 5 DD places would have given the Fireball the win, 3 second.  I reskon that without the killer shut off in race 6 which promoted the slow fleet they would probably have been good for the 25 points or so to achieve that. 


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:05pm
So personally I'm happy that it was legal.  So what of the question whether it was fair.  I had not previously thought about a (much) faster boat and this situation.  That certainly makes it easier for the fast boat - but does easier make it more wrong?  Not to me.  In a sense it's no different from a  heavy crew who need a points differential on a light boat adopting the technique when they get to the last race of the nationals and find a Force 1 - so they have to do it through sailing against the discard.

More than that - in conditions which do not favout you on handicap why not exploit the performance of your boat in other ways.

I think tactics like this enrich our sport - I had an interesting chat with a Dad who didn't like the example to his lad.....but hey life's like that too!  And you have to consider the consequences of a rule change which would create the much worse situation where people would have to do it be stealth (if they wanted to win that much! - and how do you judge between a tight cover and sailing someone back without mind reading?).

And I think there tends to be a split by fleet level and by class on this.  Certainly I don't see any protests or much whingeing from those affected.  Although I understand teh Phantom was a tad upset.....but took no protest action.

So if I was the Fireball I'd have no guilt - but I would regret doing it because when I analysed the results I'd think I either didn't do enough or should have done less and backed myself to be a few places better.




Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by sargesail

I think your's is an interesting question but it doesn't apply here.  Because the Fireball had slowed it was on the same leg, ie rounding the same mark in the same order for the same number of times.
Disagree the "Same Leg" presumption. You are wrong !

Surely,
 a "Leg" commences after the "Start";  there is no "Leg" to sail before a "Start"

QED:
If there are different "Starts", then de-facto, there are different "First Legs"; I have a problem extending this argument beyond the first "Mark".

Because the Fireball had slowed, it was Not sailing its "Proper Course", within the requirements of accepting that the 2-boats were on different legs, as defined within the argument above.
And therefore, being on a different first-leg, was barred from manoeuvring against a different-start boat.


Pushing the limits of definitions ?


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No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:40pm
A leg is the course between two marks.  I think if we were talking different laps you might be right but that's not the case here. (Your query will tell you - although I'm surprised its not in the case law).  The key point is that they are sailing in the same race.  I would absolutely agree with you if it was different starts and different races, but it's not.  

The Fireball could sail its proper course with its sails completely out, but it would still be its proper course).  But you are misunderstanding the intent behind the rule.  This is designed to for the sitaution where the course has a 90% rounding from a run (ie to a beam reach) and the lead boat tacks back onto starboard to collect a boat still coming down the run - he would not be sailing his proper course and it would not be legit.  If the mark rounding were back upwind on to a beat then he could do just that (as long as it is legit on other rules) but he could not then tack and bear away in order to get beneath the other boat again.

Lots of people read what they want to on this issue, not what is in the rules.


Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 27 Feb 12 at 10:52pm
'Legal' or not ....but is it 'acceptable' in a largely amateur sport and at a handicap event should be the question posed and addressed.  If it is totally 'acceptable' then it is indeed a sad day for all. 

If I was sponsoring the series or event I'd withdraw all support until such practices were satisfactorily outlawed.   Anyone benefitting should should think about  donating any 'gains' to a suitable charity imo.

Mike L.


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