Print Page | Close Window

carbon masts

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8857
Printed Date: 19 Jan 22 at 5:35am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: carbon masts
Posted By: fudheid
Subject: carbon masts
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 4:06pm
)
I've had a carbon mast repaired and its not straight and NO i will not take it back to the guy who failed so miserably first time roundOuch, So two questions.
1. Can it be straightened - i presume split and patched???Confused
2. Who to do it? East coast or M25
 Any idea on costs? i know thats 3 questionsBig smile



-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......



Replies:
Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 4:12pm
what mast was it?
and it depends on how he repaired it, our one has had an extensive section of the mast rebuilt, so it is impossiable to identify where the break was, or take the new material off,



-------------
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 4:12pm
I'll see your 3 questions and raise it with another 3...
 
What is the mast from?
 
How badly is it bent?
 
How was it fixed originally?


-------------
http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN
Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 4:23pm
B14
top section above caps deflects from join/repair (not curve) 8mm maybe 10mm
fixed by a specialist carbon firmDead sleeved and bonded looks very good (apart from the kink and dodgy track glueing). I am sure it is strong enough it is just not straightShocked


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 4:44pm
who fixed it? and which b14

pm me if you dont want to name and shame,
just ring your insurer (asuming it an insurance job) and get them to replace the whole mast, as the repair should have restored it to the original condidition,


-------------
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: andyxs
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 7:51pm
second the insurance, that is what it is their for!!


Posted By: andyxs
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 7:55pm
if they do total it let me know! im after a length of carbon.


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by olly_love

who fixed it? and which b14 pm me if you dont want to name and shame, just ring your insurer (asuming it an insurance job) and get them to replace the whole mast, as the repair should have restored it to the original condidition,


it was a gift from salvage so no insurance hence the ask about repairs. The question is can a carbon mast be straightened from a dodgy repair and if it can any recommendations?

-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Jan 12 at 9:36pm
Its very difficult to say anything very useful about this without seeing the mast, how it was damaged, how it was repaired and what the problem with the repair is.


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 10:35am


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 10:38am
Originally posted by fudheid

So the mast snapped in 2 places, it has been sleeved and bonded??
I figured it would be straight as a die? Do carbon masts have natural prebend? Can this be sorted? ifso who? 
otherwise i have a very bespoke mast which will need its mainsail cutting to fit exactly.


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 11:06am
that looks crap,
mine broke above this point and we have done a much better job,
i think its dead tbh, also what has someone done around the main sheave?
and the caps take off points as there should be inserts for standard t terminals here
the sideways bend may be ok but the for and aft istnt good,
i would attach it with a finger belt sander and see if you can thin it down a bit
looking at it you wont hoist the main as the head will get caught,

we have an alloy you could borrow to get you sailing? if that would help,
i would give giff a call or jamie from synthasise as they may be able to graft a new top section on but it all depends on what needs doing, and how much you want to spend,


-------------
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 11:54am
It looks as if someone has tried to do a repair on the cheap and it hasn't come off. If that was a full price job I think the repairer needs to be looking at themselves if they billed for it. If on the other hand it was "well, we'll have a go on the cheap, no guarantees, its at your own risk whether it works or not, mate", then well, these things happen.


I'm having trouble working out what I'm looking at... Is that one break or two? But certainly repairing that involves taking large chunks out and replacing them. It could very easily not be cost effective to get it done professionally because it means fabricating new sections that are exactly the right size. Also I fear it might be better if the whole track came off and was replaced.

If its a single break at the hounds then a whole new top mast might be the best bet. C-Tech, maybe amongst others make at least some of their carbon spars with a separate tapered topmast and parallel main section and a joint at the hounds.

As far as pre-bend is concerned most classes ban masts being built with intentional pre-bend.




Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 12:07pm

mmm, that repair is best described as terrible. If you paid for more than the materials then you have right to complain as it is shocking!

Looks like a CST mast which is generally quite a large strand, but can be cleaned up and laminated quite nicely (I repaired a Cherub CST mast a couple of years ago). I'd not bother trying to straighten this one, just accept that it is a bad job and sail it as it is. As long as you can get the main up and it holds it up then it will be fine for training with at least, and to be honest you hardly sound like you are hoping to win the nationals so your skill will probably slow you down more than this mast. Save your pennys whilst you are practising with this one and then get a new mast when you can afford it.


-------------
http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN
Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb


Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 12:09pm
the issue you will have it the leach will be massivly open is the tip points aft,
and yes jim there is a join in the mast,


-------------
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 12:14pm

Originally posted by JimC

It looks as if someone has tried to do a repair on the cheap and it hasn't come off. If that was a full price job I think the repairer needs to be looking at themselves if they billed for it. If on the other hand it was "well, we'll have a go on the cheap, no guarantees, its at your own risk whether it works or not, mate", then well, these things happen.
According to the MD of the carbon specialists (oh yeah they are specialists, i know i should name and shame but i won't) it took 35 manhours to Feck this up. When they saw the job full of confidence 'no problems, we are experts at this will be good as new'Dead
 Repair time at  for mast (excluding the hull repairs): 35 hours. Chargeable rate at  for carbon on carbon circa 50 to 75 per hour. Total repair cost including materials, 2,200. We've agreed to call it quits, and I will honour that - maybe that will make you a little more patient - can you wait til the weekend?Angry A quote from the MD, needless to say after the work we did to 'call it quits' enabled him to sail at the I14 worldsLOL deep down i'm laughing at the loss of my time and energyover something that potentially i should of paid someone else to doClap

I'm having trouble working out what I'm looking at... Is that one break or two? But certainly repairing that involves taking large chunks out and replacing them. It could very easily not be cost effective to get it done professionally because it means fabricating new sections that are exactly the right size. Also I fear it might be better if the whole track came off and was replaced. 
 It is 2 breaks, at both sets of spreaders, the lower break is kinked but not to the same extenet as the higher break. The track seems to be a nightmare for repairers as it is costly and comes in min lengths?

If its a single break at the hounds then a whole new top mast might be the best bet. C-Tech, maybe amongst others make at least some of their carbon spars with a separate tapered topmast and parallel main section and a joint at the hounds.

As far as pre-bend is concerned most classes ban masts being built with intentional pre-bend. 
Thanks you have confirmed my worst fears, carbon tubes should be straight when not loadedLOL
looks like it was wise to keep the insurance money afterall and not holiday in the carribean with my good ladyWink





-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by timnoyce

mmm, that repair is best described as terrible. If you paid for more than the materials then you have right to complain as it is shocking!

Looks like a CST mast which is generally quite a large strand, but can be cleaned up and laminated quite nicely (I repaired a Cherub CST mast a couple of years ago). I'd not bother trying to straighten this one, just accept that it is a bad job and sail it as it is. As long as you can get the main up and it holds it up then it will be fine for training with at least, and to be honest you hardly sound like you are hoping to win the nationals so your skill will probably slow you down more than this mast.
LOLCareful you never know who your talking aboutWink boat was bought as cheap dinghy, we have class wins in two and three wire boats as well as plenty of club trophies.... we were told it was repairableLOL If i keep it like it is i will have to recut my sails to fit this particular mast - not good.
Save your pennys whilst you are practising with this one and then get a new mast when you can afford it.Clap This looks like the way forward. Any one interested in Carbon tube??LOL



-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 12:26pm
bloody hell, if thats the C****GY  Company i think you are talking about, they haev propperly f**ked up,
and a new mast is 1900 rigged so god only know why they quoted 2200, we did our repair in 5 hours,


-------------
TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 12:31pm
I think I know who did that, and I have had trouble even buying stuff from them.
35 hours!
That kind of job is 10h all things being equal.  Hundred quid or so for materials. Bit more to laquer it but you shouldn't see any bend or even notice a repair apart from a cosmetic wrap. Track should be seamless.
Even if he didn't have a perfect sleeve there are ways of making it line up.
Surely you could buy a similar mast new for 2200, even with the exchange the way it is.
Alternatively, get your boat insured (which you have to really if racing) and see how long the repair stands up for.



Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 12:33pm
And a good repairer will have stock of sail track of all types, scavenged from written off tubes if needs be.



Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

.....That kind of job is 10h all things being equal.  


Ahhh there in lies the problem, it probably was repaired in under 10 hours! after putting a little pressure on as to when we would get the mast back. I got the feeling it probably left the workshop still curing!
I wouldn't be surprised if it only took 3 hours in total, only glad that cost wise i have not paid. Not sure its even worth putting the fittings back on pretty sure the sail is going to need luff recut - not worth it methinks!



-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 1:11pm
Like a few other posters I'm baffled as to why you apparently went ahead with the repair when the quote was considerably more than the cost of a brand new mastConfused  At least you didn't pay!  You may still be effectively out of pocket if the mast was repairable before this botched attempt.
 
You have nothing to lose by sending pictures to known reputable repairers of these masts (Chipstow and Synthesize spring to mind) and see if they think it could be put right and at what cost.
 
Mike


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by MikeBz

Like a few other posters I'm baffled as to why you apparently went ahead with the repair when the quote was considerably more than the cost of a brand new mastConfused  At least you didn't pay!  You may still be effectively out of pocket if the mast was repairable before this botched attempt.
 
You have nothing to lose by sending pictures to known reputable repairers of these masts (Chipstow and Synthesize spring to mind) and see if they think it could be put right and at what cost.
 
Mike
Remember this was from a total write off/salvage - the insurance paid out in full. We were told by several repairs that the mast was repairable. We used this company as we know them and have done work for them and seen some of their dinghies and car parts which always look good.
We had an agreement on some work we did in August that they would repair our mast and deck in return for some of our gear, after waiting 3 months we got a bit tetchy and the reply  I posted here was their response. Their original price when we were working out the like for like was 600 including a deck repair (which is excellent - no complaints there). I get the feeling that they are very last minute and as we are in the 'mates' category we can be forgotten about and not get the highest quality repairs or finishing - the hull needed a little finishing before painting)
So lesson learnt. Ouch No free work and no friends or family
We have sent photos to chipstow.


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 2:33pm
From a so called professional that is truly awful. How could he let it out of his shop looking like that? 

-------------


Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 2:41pm
When I was working as a boatbuilder on a yard, if I had done a repair like that, I would have been sacked!!! And I would not feel hard done by if I had been. I showed the pictures to a colleague at work, who used to do carbon repairs on aircraft, and he likewise, was shocked.

I would not pay, and would not use them again after that repair....

Jon

-------------
Blaze 711


Posted By: Dave Chiz
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 3:24pm
I'd just like to add three points....

1. Carbonology had NOTHING to do with that mast... 
2. Carbonology has never been paid for repairing that mast... (See 1.)
3. Carbonology does not do boat repairs or mast repairs and we never have.

Please get your facts straight before you kick off.

Kind regards and happy new year to you all.




Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Dave Chiz

I'd just like to add three points....

1. Carbonology had NOTHING to do with that mast... 
2. Carbonology has never been paid for repairing that mast... (See 1.)
3. Carbonology does not do boat repairs or mast repairs and we never have.

Please get your facts straight before you kick off.

Kind regards and happy new year to you all.


This is true, apologies for any confusion. This is not about who did the repair it's about how to make it RIGHT. Thanks to those who have suggested companies we are waiting for the expert repliesSmile


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 9:28pm
Can we play a guessing game... Does the repairer start with an "R"?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 9:35pm
Guessing games of that kind are always best avoided... we've already had one guessing game cause problems...


Posted By: Menace
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 9:54pm
In the same instance Jim, it's a completely appauling repair and you do get shows on BBC such as rip off Britain and ones about cowboy builders that name and shame. 2k for that job is a bloody liberty, especially where it's meant to be for a mate. In addition, would stop us actually jumping to conclusions and thinking that the wrong guy did it. What happens to the next guy who walks into that boatbuilders and actually foots the bill for it? I'd lose sleep about him our her and not the "cowboy" builder. Think about it, that's a 2k mast repair, what about buying a 20k 14? That's before you even consider the safety implications.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by Menace

you do get shows on BBC such as rip off Britain and ones about cowboy builders that name and shame.


You do indeed, and many of them are ******: remember its all done for the show: you really don't want to actually believe anything you see on television without independant corroborating evidence. I had a friend whose business was forced into bankruptcy because they happened to have a vaguely similar business name to one of those exposes, and can you forget the flash mob who went round and smashed up the house of the local paedo - except she was the local paediatrician?

I bet the entire story looks very different from the other side: it always does.


Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 9:08am
Jim You are wrong, these people do need to be shamed, perhaps not publicly but a quick phone call to insurers soon gets them off the repair list. For the sake of anyone planning to use them in the future.
 


Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 2:09pm
Think all has been said to be fair - its a truly shocking job which should only cost 300 tops!! You may have done so already but our B14 rig is currently at a specialist here in Southampton and i'm sure he would talk to you sensibly about options:
 
Pete @ Zest Racing - http://www.dinghy-repairs.co.uk - www.dinghy-repairs.co.uk
or
Jamie @ Synthesize - http://synthesizegroup.com - http://synthesizegroup.com
 
Both are B14 specialists and more importantly CST repairers! Hope you get it sorted before the season kicks off!!


-------------
RS400 GBR1345


Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 2:54pm
The plot thickens. Just gonna pop out and get some popcorn but I'll be back ready to watch this unfold...

-------------
http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN
Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 2:55pm
Not happy with your post MattK, think you should take your post down. This is not what this forum is for.

-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 3:40pm
okay- I'm lost did Carbonology do that initial repair or not?


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by timnoyce

The plot thickens. Just gonna pop out and get some popcorn but I'll be back ready to watch this unfold...
 
Bet it gets deleted before you are back...


-------------



Posted By: Dave Chiz
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 4:09pm
No carbonology had nothing to do with it. 

I did it.  I repaired the 2 breaks on Simons mast as a favour in my own time at my own place with my own tools and materials. For free. 
But I couldn't get the tip straight - I tried a number of times. I wanted to try again but he wanted it back.

I am sure all of you would be able to do it first time and all of you would be able to do a perfect job in 3 minutes flat with just a puncture repair kit and a rusty teaspoon so I bow to your fantastic skill and talent in repairing masts. Well this time I got it wrong. I admit it. I have never denied it. 

I have admitted to Si that I made a mistake - The biggest one being that because Si needed the mast back and I'd had it a long time trying to get it right, I panicked and let him have it back. I should have kept it, cut it back and repaired it again... I accept that. What it has to do with you lot I have no idea?!

SO there you have it. The absolute truth. Can we go to the pub now?

I personally repaired that mast in my own time as a favour to a mate for no charge. The mast was a write off (and therefore should really have been destroyed or disposed of) but I said to Si I could probably get it in one piece in a sound enough state so it could be used again. And indeed that I did. When it was wired up it would have been difficult to tell it was off axis - Though I totally accept this is not ideal, it really was a 'something for nothing' mast. Where the mast is broken lower down in the parallel section the repair is fine. But repairing a taper is much harder as the insert is parallel and there was hardware in the way - but you all know that I am sure.





Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by Dave Chiz

What it has to do with you lot I have no idea?!


... because the OP said this:

Originally posted by fudheid

I've had a carbon mast repaired and its not straight and NO i will not take it back to the guy who failed so miserably first time roundOuch


I guess it would have been prudent to have worded it along the lines of:

... because the guy who tried his best to do me a favour at very short notice for FREE couldn't salvage it from its written-off state...


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by rogue

Originally posted by Dave Chiz

What it has to do with you lot I have no idea?!


... because the OP said this:

Originally posted by fudheid

I've had a carbon mast repaired and its not straight and NO i will not take it back to the guy who failed so miserably first time roundOuch


I guess it would have been prudent to have worded it along the lines of:

... because the guy who tried his best to do me a favour at very short notice for FREE couldn't salvage it from its written-off state...

 
think the original OP was (i know it woz me wot don itLOL) :-
1. Can it be straightened - i presume split and patched???Confused
2. Who to do it? East coast or M25
 Any idea on costs? i know thats 3 questionsBig smile
We were asking advice on who people use or recommend for this sort of thing.

I'm with Dave on this "someone say pub?"


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 4:50pm
Dave,

While I do sympathise with dirty washing being cleaned in public, please do acknowledge that some of us are skilled boatbuilders, in carbon, composite, GRP, and even wood.. In my experience, carbon mast repairs, are not difficult, but once it goes slightly pear shaped, it goes totally pear shaped.... I would have refused to release the mast to the owner, until I was happy with the repair, no matter how much I was pestered for it.... It looks like this may have been a learning experience for you, with regard to protecting your image...

We have all cocked up a few things in our time (I remember launching a customers boat, but not checking that all the hoses were connected to the sea cocks, when we checked on the boat a few hours later, the decks were at water level!), but, as long as we learn from our mistakes, we should improve...

Jon

-------------
Blaze 711


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 4:51pm
@fudheid

Your tone was hardly suggestive of a mate doing you a favour for free with a sh*t bag write-off that should've been scrapped... you kind of insinuated that you'd been ripped off with a botch job.

perhaps your next opening post won't fail so miserably first time round


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 4:56pm
Originally posted by fudheid



[QUOTE=JimC]It looks as if someone has tried to do a repair on the cheap and it hasn't come off. If that was a full price job I think the repairer needs to be looking at themselves if they billed for it. If on the other hand it was "well, we'll have a go on the cheap, no guarantees, its at your own risk whether it works or not, mate", then well, these things happen.
According to the MD of the carbon specialists (oh yeah they are specialists, i know i should name and shame but i won't) it took 35 manhours to Feck this up. When they saw the job full of confidence 'no problems, we are experts at this will be good as new'Dead


dude... with mates like you....


Posted By: Dave Chiz
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 5:41pm
Pub...Smile 


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Dave Chiz

Pub...Smile 
 
I think it's Fudheids round Thumbs Up


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 06 Jan 12 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Dave Chiz

Pub...Smile 
 
I think it's Fudheids round Thumbs Up
hope you like adnamsLOL


-------------
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com