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Port and starboard on a dead run

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8845
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 2:44pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Port and starboard on a dead run
Posted By: JD
Subject: Port and starboard on a dead run
Date Posted: 02 Jan 12 at 12:47pm
My understanding is that a boat is on starboard tack when the wind is blowing over the right hand side of the boat.  I think, more commonly (at least at my club) this is interpreted as boom over the left hand side of the boat, which is fine for a beat/reach, but can cause problems on the run.

For example, a laser or topper can easily run by the lee, such that the boom is over the right side of the boat, and the wind is also on the right side.  

Is this boat on port (as it would appear from boom position) or starboard (wind position)?  

A difficult situation would be two lasers on a dead run, both with their booms over the right side of the boat (on port).  If the 'windward' boat (the one on the left) were to bear off and run by the lee, does she then have rights over the other as a starboard boat?  If so how would you prove you were by the lee in a protest?




Replies:
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 02 Jan 12 at 1:08pm
Not sure you can, the only way you can really tell is the side of the boom defining tack.

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Musto Skiff and Solo sailor


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jan 12 at 1:41pm
Perhaps the most vital part of the rules are the definitions. You need to know these at least as well as the actual rules. So here's the vital definition...

Leeward and Windward A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat.


So the boom defines it. Whether running by the lee or not is irrelevant.

Quite what the RRS would have to say if I were sailing a Viking longship replica with a symmetrical square sail and no fore and aft sails I'm not quite sure. Gordon? Are you there? Actually there must be quite a few other rules that get very complicated if one party is on a boat that doesn't gybe...


Posted By: JD
Date Posted: 02 Jan 12 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

 However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies.

So what is the proper definition of port/starboard?  If it is defined by which side the wind is blowing over, as I thought, then my question still stands as it is not about windward leeward when port/starboard overrides it.

Or, do you interpret the above to mean that if leeward is defined by the boom, then that implies that windward is the opposite side, regardless of where the wind is really coming from?  i.e. your 'official' windward side can sometimes be your leeward side?!

I would have thought this situation comes up frequently with (e.g) lasers weaving between a broad reach and by the lee course to maintain speed downwind?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jan 12 at 2:16pm
The rules are linked from here.
http://www.sailing.org/documents/racing-rules.php - http://www.sailing.org/documents/racing-rules.php
The definitions are at the back, starting at page 154. It really is crucially important to know them:-)

Tack, Starboard or Port A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding
to her windward side.


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 02 Jan 12 at 2:17pm
The definitions are clear - unfortunately nobody ever reads the definitions except the Jury!To resume:

1 A boat is on the tack (P or S) corresponding to her windward side.

2 The leeward side of a boat is:
- the side away from the wind, or
- when the  boat is head to wind the side that was away from the wind (so 2 boats head to wind can be on opposite tacks) or
- when a boat is sailing dead downwind, the side on which her mainsail lies. , or
- when a boat is sailing by the lee, the side on which her mainsail lies.

3 The windward side is the other side.


Complications
 - Lasers can run by the lee at some 30° above the downwind course - they are stillon the tack on which their mainsail lies
- A boat running nearly downwind can attempt to pass the mainsail on to the other side. However, she is not running by the lee until the mainsail fills on the new side so she is still on the original tack!

If there is any confusion about which tack a boat is on a Jury will return to the last point of certainty to decide.

As for the Viking longship - or a cruising boat running under twin jibs and no main...

If running directly downwind - apply the last point of certainty method until it becomes clear that the boat has changed tack. Can a square sail run by the lee?

Happy New Year.

PS For January - read a definition every day, and ask questions here if anything is unclear.




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Gordon


Posted By: JD
Date Posted: 02 Jan 12 at 2:21pm
Great that clears it up then, thanks!


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 12 at 8:35pm
There is an unwritten rule:

Vikings have right of way!


Not sure about tall ships though. I guess if they've managed this long without a definition, it's a moot point.


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 07 Jan 12 at 1:13pm
The Viking ships may have problmes with rule 14 "Avoiding Contact".

Don't most "tall ships" have a fore and aft sail on the mizzen mast? Anyway, I am not certain that they race using the RRS.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 07 Jan 12 at 4:43pm
they do use fore and aft sails, but aren't likely to have them up when going dead down wind- the same goes for all their for and aft sails between masts and at the front- surely?

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-_
Al


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 12 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by gordon

Don't most "tall ships" have a fore and aft sail on the mizzen mast?

Most surviving ones do, but according to the definition it would have no more significance than the mizzen sail on a ketch does: its the mainsail that counts...


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 07 Jan 12 at 5:42pm
At this point normal procedure would be to request an interpretation of the rules either from RYA or ISAF.

In the unlikely event that this came before a PC I would probably argue that as the mainsail was a square sail, and thus did not clearly indicate which tack the boat was on then it could be deemed that the mainsail was on the same tack as the largest fore and aft sail...

An interesting point.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Jan 12 at 5:49pm
Do tall ships sail by the lee with any regularity?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 07 Jan 12 at 8:26pm
that's rather what we're saying- there isn't such a thing as sailing by the lee with square sails. They don't gybe.

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-_
Al


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 07 Jan 12 at 11:18pm

I believe there has been an easy way of settling the argument, which has been used for many centuries;



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Jan 12 at 11:47pm
I've posted the square rig conundrum on SA, and am just sitting back with a glass of good malt and some popcorn...


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 08 Jan 12 at 8:40am

I wasn't entirely surprised, on looking at the STI 'Tall ships race' rules to find that they operate under the COLREGS. The event isn't so much a 'race' in the same context as say the Americas Cup, and isn't under the auspices of the ISAF.   http://www.sailtraininginternational.org/_uploads/documents/CaptainsPage/RSR2011Web2.pdf - http://www.sailtraininginternational.org/_uploads/documents/CaptainsPage/RSR2011Web2.pdf



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Feb 12 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by alstorer

that's rather what we're saying- there isn't such a thing as sailing by the lee with square sails. They don't gybe.


Missed this answer when this thread was happening. Surely they bring the yards round a certain amount, so if the wind was blowing across from the other side, without them moving them round, they would be sailing by the lee?

Do they still settle protests in the tall ships race using the method pictured above? And can we add it to Trireme racing at the Olympics?


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 23 Feb 12 at 12:50pm
If the yards aren't braced round for a new course or significant change in wind direction the sails will become backed.  The concept of sailing by the lee makes no sense.  The sails are backed deliberately when tacking and heaving to, to gybe they are not backed which is why a square rigger is at more risk  of losing control (stopping and going backwards) during a tack than a gybe.  All the yards can be controlled independently to each other so some sails can be backed whilst others are not.

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PeterV
Finn K197, Finn GBR564, GK29
Warsash


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23 Feb 12 at 2:19pm
FWIW Gordon:
 
Barque, Barquentine, Brig, Brigantine, Schooners all had fore and aft sails of some sort so presumeably could sail by the lee. Whether they would want to is another matter, an accidental gybe would be disasterous I would have thought. Most tall ships fit into these categories but there are some "fully rigged" with all square sails. 
 
The square sails would have been trimed as we now trim the spinnaker, i.e. front edge on the point of curling unless going dead down wind.
 
Still currently building a model of the Golden Hind, this had 2 square rigged masts and one fore and aft. Now categorised as a Barque.



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