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Laser - New Standard Sail and Carbon Top Section

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8525
Printed Date: 16 Oct 19 at 12:55am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Laser - New Standard Sail and Carbon Top Section
Posted By: AndyBatGWSC
Subject: Laser - New Standard Sail and Carbon Top Section
Date Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 11:00pm
A new Radial Cut Standard Sail and a carbon top section are under test in the USA and might be available in late 2012 or 2013.  Smile

The full report and pictures can be found at  http://claysails.com/node/392 - http://claysails.com/node/392



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Nov 11 at 11:17pm
There's more on that here.

http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560 - http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Nov 11 at 9:11am
To be fair, as pointed out in these articles, the sail has been under development for a number of years (I first saw some pictures or the 'early' porotyes about 2-3 years ago and they were not recent pictures then).
 
I think the sail is good for the class, not sure on the top section though. Time will tell!


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: charlie1019
Date Posted: 12 Nov 11 at 9:34am
I can remember a mate trialling a carbon top section and revised sail when we were about 16. That must make it about 12 years ago!


Posted By: Vronny
Date Posted: 12 Nov 11 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by JimC

There's more on that here.

http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560 - http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560
The article includes the sentence: There could be a major drama looming at Perth 2011, the key sailing qualifying event for the London Olympics, with large numbers of mast equipment failures in the Laser class possible, a known problem plaguing the Olympic single handed dinghy in recent years.
 Really? Have recent major laser championships been plagued by this?
I'm not disputing it - just curious.
The laser masts I know seem pretty tough - we stick 'em in the mud when we capsize and then bounce on the dagger board to get 'em up. You'd think club level sailing would severely test laser masts but I've only very rarely (in several decades) seen one fail. Is it that the newer lasers being supplied and used at major events have weaker masts?



Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 12 Nov 11 at 1:42pm
Perth are expecting winds most days of 20-25 knots and the depth in the race area is as little as 2-3m. The local sailors do tend to go thru a few top sections as their will be a 1-2m swell, one could call it more of a short steep chop...not as bad as Melb, but....
One is also sceptical as it is LP Australia that has developed this sail and top section
What I am more suprised about is the lack of action by ISAF on the laser issue. IMHO if this had been any other class they would have been slung out of the olympics.
 


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 12 Nov 11 at 2:23pm
As far as I can recall, equipment changes are not be possible part way though an Olympic cycle.
At what point changes could feasibly be allowed to the Laser/Laser Radial before the 2016 Olympics I'm not sure. It would certainly never happen before London (Weymouth) even if all the parties could reach agreement.


Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 12 Nov 11 at 4:41pm
You are right Andymac...but they are voting/have voted on the 2016 classes now (apart from those which are going thru trials)


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 13 Nov 11 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by Vronny

Originally posted by JimC

There's more on that here.

http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560 - http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560
The article includes the sentence: There could be a major drama looming at Perth 2011, the key sailing qualifying event for the London Olympics, with large numbers of mast equipment failures in the Laser class possible, a known problem plaguing the Olympic single handed dinghy in recent years.
 Really? Have recent major laser championships been plagued by this?
I'm not disputing it - just curious.
The laser masts I know seem pretty tough - we stick 'em in the mud when we capsize and then bounce on the dagger board to get 'em up. You'd think club level sailing would severely test laser masts but I've only very rarely (in several decades) seen one fail. Is it that the newer lasers being supplied and used at major events have weaker masts?


I get through at least 2 complete masts in a season...
Not always snapped, but no longer legal. If you apply the "straight mast" rule absolutely, I'd be getting through about 6 as the bottom sections bend when you go out in more than 20 knots.

For example, the mast I used at the worlds in July (brand new other than being broken in over the previous 4 weeks in training)... Bottom section was bent with about 0.5cm of deflection by the end of the week (I'm using this as my training one now), and the top section snapped 2 weeks ago. Smile

So in short, yes, the masts are currently **** and it's a disgrace!  If you apply the class rules properly, everyone at a top event should be disqualified after every windy day, because there won't be a single straight mast when they come ashore.

And that's not an exaggeration.


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 10:00am
Why does it take sooooo long?


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 10:51am
Bustinben - question for you. How can a mast be illegal if you have it measured on day one of the championship, it is supplied by the organisers and you can only measure one mast per championship?
 
Then you have 20 knot winds and bend the mast. Not your problem surely. There is nothing you can do about it during the championship. If the race committee, measurers or any competitor starts protesting you then this will not be a very popular move. I guess many sailors would quickly leave the class regardless of it being an Olympic boat.


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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 11:03am
Its a lovely illustration of how one change feeds another... The Laser rig seemed pretty much fine with the original gear. Uprate the controls so they are more powerful and easier to adjust and...


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 11:30am
Originally posted by JimC

Its a lovely illustration of how one change feeds another... The Laser rig seemed pretty much fine with the original gear. Uprate the controls so they are more powerful and easier to adjust and...


No it wasn't; in the 70s laser spars were snapping all over the place; they are much more robust now mainly because the tubes are sleeved ...

The XD controls just make things easier; people were still using block to block kicker tensions 30 years ago ...


Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 11:38am
Originally posted by seamonkey


Originally posted by JimC

Its a lovely illustration of how one change feeds another... The Laser rig seemed pretty much fine with the original gear. Uprate the controls so they are more powerful and easier to adjust and...
No it wasn't; in the 70s laser spars were snapping all over the place; they are much more robust now mainly because the tubes are sleeved ... The XD controls just make things easier; people were still using block to block kicker tensions 30 years ago ...



My experience is that the xd kicker makes it possible to put much more than block to block on upwind. However, I found that the goose neck used to break a lot more often, not the spars.

I haven't sailed a laser for a few years now, but from my experience when I did and what I see now I don't think spars are breaking any more often than they used to (unless you ram them into the bar coming into Chichester harbour with winds against tide.....)



Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 11:48am
I've broken three top sections and one boom in the past, everytime it's a c*nt a situation as it inevitably means you've f**ked your luff section, which unlike the top section, you won't get Noble to give you a nice shiny new one, it'll be patched and that's another rag fubared...

... this of course was back in the 1990's when I used a 386 PC, made mixtapes from recordings off the radio and drank cider as alcopops hadn't been invented. So I guess this known issue has been resolved now.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by seamonkey


No it wasn't; in the 70s laser spars were snapping all over the place; they are much more robust now mainly because the tubes are sleeved ...

The XD controls just make things easier; people were still using block to block kicker tensions 30 years ago ...
 
I think you will find only the boom is sleeved. The top and bottom sections for all rigs are just straight tubes with no edditional reinforcement.


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 1:44pm
strange thing for me was that I never broke a top section, only bent them, but I did break two bottom sections at deck level where the tube wore against the gelcoat. I'm pretty sure I managed to get the boom as tight with my crappy rope version with a swivel at the bottom as you can with an xd version, its just that it cost me about £150 less.

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Bustinben - question for you. How can a mast be illegal if you have it measured on day one of the championship, it is supplied by the organisers and you can only measure one mast per championship?
 
Then you have 20 knot winds and bend the mast. Not your problem surely. There is nothing you can do about it during the championship. If the race committee, measurers or any competitor starts protesting you then this will not be a very popular move. I guess many sailors would quickly leave the class regardless of it being an Olympic boat.

...Because the class rules say: "Straight mast".  You should be able to change to another one if it bends by going to see the measurer.  I'm not sure what the situation would be if they were checking straightness on measuring in, but then refused to let you change a bent one...

If they did start enforcing it properly, then yes, it would be a ridiculous. But more ridiculous than having to ignore the class rules because the kit simply isn't up to the job?  I'm not sure.

What we have at the moment is the real situation where you have to buy a new bottom section (and a top, if you're unable to fully straighten it, which drastically reduces its life as well) for every regatta where you  know they're going to be measuring properly.


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 7:30pm
also note that not all measured regattas have supplied boats... radial men, for example. Or masters events.


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 9:31pm
Sorry Ben you have just made the Laser look even more ridiculous, shame really as I can see the concept of simple boats and class racing. However if the equipment is not up to the forces put on it such that it makes the equipment out of class that is either good salesmanship or fraud.
 
Guess why I and most other sailors do not sail Lasers.


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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 10:29pm
Everyone knows it - but there's nothing else that offers the same quality of racing so people put up with it I guess (me included).


Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 14 Nov 11 at 10:42pm
Originally posted by bustinben

Everyone knows it - but there's nothing else that offers the same quality of racing so people put up with it I guess (me included).


The quality of racing depends more on the people than the equipment. If you all moved en mass from the Laser to another class which has better build quality you'd still get the same standard of racing as you'd take the quality with you.



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Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB



Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 6:55am
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by bustinben

Everyone knows it - but there's nothing else that offers the same quality of racing so people put up with it I guess (me included).


The quality of racing depends more on the people than the equipment. If you all moved en mass from the Laser to another class which has better build quality you'd still get the same standard of racing as you'd take the quality with you.


Alas the quality comes from the fact that it's the mens/womens olympic singlehander, so it's up to isaf.
Aside from the equipment issue I think it's an excellent boat however.  Very easy to sail,  but very difficult to sail fast.  There is no tuning cheat sheet that will give you boatspeed in a laser.  

It's also slow enough to make downwind wavesailing extremely interesting.  Most of the time your boat wants to be going slightly slower than the waves, but if you can get it to jump on the escalator, and then start skipping down the steps... Smile  Very rewarding.


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 8:56am
Originally posted by bustinben

Everyone knows it - but there's nothing else that offers the same quality of racing so SOME people put up with it I guess (me included), shame the rest bugger off, some never to set foot in a dinghy again


corrected that for you...


Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 10:20am
Originally posted by bustinben

Alas the quality comes from the fact that it's the mens/womens olympic singlehander, so it's up to isaf.


Ah yes the Olympics. A politically-driven 5-ring circus held every 4 years to test which country has the most advanced drug test cheating technology.

Originally posted by bustinben

Aside from the equipment issue I think it's an excellent boat however.


They must have changed a lot since I last sailed one about 20 years ago then. I found it an insipdly dull, charmless little tub.

Originally posted by bustinben

Very easy to sail,  but very difficult to sail fast.


That statement applies to most classes.

Originally posted by bustinben

There is no tuning cheat sheet that will give you boatspeed in a laser.


There's no tuning "cheat sheet" that will give you boatspeed in any other class either. When you look at the number of DVDs and books about the techniques of sailing Lasers and compare that to a few sentences about mast rake and spreader deflection which is about all you'll find for most classes (if you're lucky) then it's obvious that the Laser has a whole library of "cheat sheets".

Originally posted by bustinben

It's also slow enough to make downwind wavesailing extremely interesting.  Most of the time your boat wants to be going slightly slower than the waves, but if you can get it to jump on the escalator, and then start skipping down the steps... Smile  Very rewarding.


There's lots of classes like that.



-------------
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB



Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 11:18am
Originally posted by SoggyBadger

Originally posted by bustinben

Everyone knows it - but there's nothing else that offers the same quality of racing so people put up with it I guess (me included).


The quality of racing depends more on the people than the equipment. If you all moved en mass from the Laser to another class which has better build quality you'd still get the same standard of racing as you'd take the quality with you.


And exactly how are 45 people (in my club alone) going to all en masse find ready buyers for their boats (at the same time that every other Laser sailor in the world is selling their boat) and then go out and buy another OD?

It's a little bit like saying all that we need for world peace is for everyone to be nice to one another. Possible in theory, but not in reality.

We can complain about any boat. I've got hulls and gear for five classes (3 development classes, 3 SMODs) and every one of them has something that could be described as a major fault. One of the Development class boats is useless because it's outmoded, another is useless because it's outmoded and the class is dead, a competitive up to date rig in the third will cost me more than a competitive Laser, the stick and sails in one of the SMODs is fragile and more expensive than a Laser, the stick in another SMOD is impossible to break but the whole rig is designed around accepting lower performance in exchange for simplicity.

Not one of my classes (or any other class) is perfect, and if another class got 1600 sailors to LIMITED ENTRY world titles we could surely push it to the point where there'd be issues as well.



Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 11:53am
Originally posted by Chris 249

And exactly how are 45 people (in my club alone) going to all en masse find ready buyers for their boats (at the same time that every other Laser sailor in the world is selling their boat) and then go out and buy another OD?


That's your problem.



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Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB



Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 1:18pm
Felixstowe ferry have got a hyde sails prototype for the laser (infact they have got 2 both different) they are the same panel layout as the photo they have been used by the club lasers (for any club memebers use) for two years now i think.
It feels like it has an advantage in stronger winds against similar aged originals shape retention in wind was much better than the stretchy 3.8oz dacron (think it was made in polykote for those of a geeky mindset) for interest the chinese manufactured replicas do not seem able to keep up..... might be the bloke sailing tho. 
I have sailed the laser twice in 5 years and beat some good club sailors with new gear xd kits etc....Its hard to compare with 8-10 lasers all using different kit because of replica sails - even the replicas seem to be different sail to sailSmile
IMHO if you want to sail a laser suck eggs and buy the one design its the only way to tell if your better (or getting better). 
If you think laser charge to much (they do) then change class why are RS so popular?


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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by fudheid

Felixstowe ferry have got a hyde sails prototype for the laser (infact they have got 2 both different) they are the same panel layout as the photo they have been used by the club lasers (for any club memebers use) for two years now i think.
 
How on earth did you swing that! I have been trying various means to get a couple of prototypes to 'have a go on' since I heard about this!
 
What sort of shape are they in now and how much use have they had in those 2 years?


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by fudheid

If you think laser charge to much (they do) then change class why are RS so popular?
 
The problem is change to what? There is no real alternative in the form of SMOD which offers a chuck rig up and go, leave for years in the dinghy park to rot catagory.  RS have steered well clear of a Laser alternative and i would guess they always will, both their hiking single handed options are hardly for the 'Laser style' club racer.
 
Unless someone is willing to chuck millions at building and designing a class with both the infustructurer and manufacturing of the Laser i can't see it happening, to be honest i just dont think their is enough ROI to make it viable nowerdays.
 
So like it or lump it i think we are stuck with it.  As for new sails and masts, fantastic its about bloody time.


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Posted By: robinft
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah

I'm pretty sure I managed to get the boom as tight with my crappy rope version with a swivel at the bottom as you can with an xd version, its just that it cost me about £150 less.


On the slipway using two hands, possibly. One handed after rounding the leeward mark in a blow, never!


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Laser number 9


Posted By: Hengest
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Ruscoe

 
The problem is change to what? There is no real alternative in the form of SMOD which offers a chuck rig up and go, leave for years in the dinghy park to rot catagory............
 
Unless someone is willing to chuck millions at building and designing a class with both the infustructurer and manufacturing of the Laser i can't see it happening, to be honest i just dont think their is enough ROI to make it viable nowerdays.
 
So like it or lump it i think we are stuck with it.  As for new sails and masts, fantastic its about bloody time.
http://www.roostersailing.com/wordpress/?cat=1&paged=2 -
 
Rooster started on their way to an alternative, http://www.roostersailing.com/wordpress/?cat=1&paged=2 it seems to have lost momentum now though


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 2:48pm
Originally posted by Hengest

http://www.roostersailing.com/wordpress/?cat=1&paged=2 -  
Rooster started on their way to an alternative, http://www.roostersailing.com/wordpress/?cat=1&paged=2 it seems to have lost momentum now though
 
This is because they are now in stage 2 of development. That combined with Steve having been ill recently things have slowed down.
 
He has given a few hints that things are still progressing.
 
I for one will be interested to see if he pulls it off, that combined with wanting a test sail ASAP.....


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by fudheid

Felixstowe ferry have got a hyde sails prototype for the laser (infact they have got 2 both different) they are the same panel layout as the photo they have been used by the club lasers (for any club memebers use) for two years now i think.
 
How on earth did you swing that! I have been trying various means to get a couple of prototypes to 'have a go on' since I heard about this!
 
What sort of shape are they in now and how much use have they had in those 2 years?
the sails are in pretty good shape considering they are 'club' sails which is as good as giving them to a sailing school to bugger up (one x 1hr race a wee. The better radial is still up there winning races (in the right hands) mind most of the club sailors tend to think sails should last 20 years like the good old cotton onesLOL  
These are Hydes and i guess since they are manufacturers of the original they had a pretty good start point for improvement - although not hard with a 3.8oz cross cut potato sack. Trying to remember now if one had 4 battens - not sure, will have to wait till next year now we are softies and stop sailing when it gets below 15CCry

Peter White (ex rondar, ex hydes, ex everything, 505 leg end) was working with them and got them donated!Wink usually their donations came because someone had messed - bad finishing or wrong logos etc. Seems these are first run protos - one of them is pretty poor apparently with the other almost being fought over on our first come first served! haha glad i sail it very very rarely!




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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by robinft

Originally posted by maxibuddah

I'm pretty sure I managed to get the boom as tight with my crappy rope version with a swivel at the bottom as you can with an xd version, its just that it cost me about £150 less.


On the slipway using two hands, possibly. One handed after rounding the leeward mark in a blow, never!


I think it was easier from in the boat actually as you just dropped the tiller for a moment and sort of threw yourself over the boom; one hand on the boom bouncing it down the other pulling the kicker on ...

Loads of booms used to snap before they were sleeved.

Current sails are very poor ... why does it take so long to fix what is so obviously very fragile by design.


Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by seamonkey

Originally posted by robinft

Originally posted by maxibuddah

I'm pretty sure I managed to get the boom as tight with my crappy rope version with a swivel at the bottom as you can with an xd version, its just that it cost me about £150 less.


On the slipway using two hands, possibly. One handed after rounding the leeward mark in a blow, never!


I think it was easier from in the boat actually as you just dropped the tiller for a moment and sort of threw yourself over the boom; one hand on the boom bouncing it down the other pulling the kicker on ...

Loads of booms used to snap before they were sleeved.

Current sails are very poor ... why does it take so long to fix what is so obviously very fragile by design.
 
Except you then have the main pinned in as hard as possible, your weight in the centre of the boat and you have let go of the tiller......
 
You are right on the booms snapping though.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by seamonkey

I think it was easier from in the boat actually as you just dropped the tiller for a moment and sort of threw yourself over the boom; one hand on the boom bouncing it down the other pulling the kicker on ...

Makes you wonder why they bothered with the XD kit at all, really, when it was so simple before...

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by seamonkey

I think it was easier from in the boat actually as you just dropped the tiller for a moment and sort of threw yourself over the boom; one hand on the boom bouncing it down the other pulling the kicker on ...

Makes you wonder why they bothered with the XD kit at all, really, when it was so simple before...

Does it really make you wonder? The Harken XD kit, less so the holt stuff, is in a completely different league to the old kit! It has allowed lighter sailors to progress into the laser due to the ability to depower so easily which makes them more money in boat sails.  Plus it allows them to sell some decent kit at massively inflated prices.  Its a no brainer isnt it?

I do however think half the reason why the sails last such a short amount of time these days is because the loads going through them now are so much higher than they used to be.  Could it be that by updating a small part of the boat (the control lines) they have made another (the sail) look even more outdated than it seemed before?


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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 7:06pm
ISAF, ILCA, RYA... all representative bodies who are only empowered because we elect for it be that way.

The fundamental reason why the laser is so out dated yet remains popular with decades of unchallenge 'known issues' is because you, we, our media and other influencers allow it to be so... Doesn't say much for 'dinghy sailors' does it...? (someone's been saying this of sorts for 4 years or so on here) No wonder only a complete maverick would dare challenge that entrenched, moth ball of a market. Rather him than me, I doubt there's much ROI in that game.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Nov 11 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by seamonkey

I think it was easier from in the boat actually as you just dropped the tiller for a moment and sort of threw yourself over the boom; one hand on the boom bouncing it down the other pulling the kicker on ...

Makes you wonder why they bothered with the XD kit at all, really, when it was so simple before...

Does it really make you wonder? The Harken XD kit, less so the holt stuff, is in a completely different league to the old kit! It has allowed lighter sailors to progress into the laser due to the ability to depower so easily which makes them more money in boat sails.  Plus it allows them to sell some decent kit at massively inflated prices.  Its a no brainer isnt it?

I do however think half the reason why the sails last such a short amount of time these days is because the loads going through them now are so much higher than they used to be.  Could it be that by updating a small part of the boat (the control lines) they have made another (the sail) look even more outdated than it seemed before?
Really? Does one have to put an emoticon of some sort next to comments that might not be expected to be taken at face value, so Laser sailors can understand them?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 16 Nov 11 at 7:24am

Originally posted by laser193713


Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by seamonkey

I think it was easier from in the boat actually as you just dropped the tiller for a moment and sort of threw yourself over the boom; one hand on the boom bouncing it down the other pulling the kicker on ...


Makes you wonder why they bothered with the XD kit at all, really, when it was so simple before...


Does it really make you wonder? The Harken XD kit, less so the holt stuff, is in a completely different league to the old kit! It has allowed lighter sailors to progress into the laser due to the ability to depower so easily which makes them more money in boat sails.  Plus it allows them to sell some decent kit at massively inflated prices.  Its a no brainer isnt it?
I do however think half the reason why the sails last such a short amount of time these days is because the loads going through them now are so much higher than they used to be.  Could it be that by updating a small part of the boat (the control lines) they have made another (the sail) look even more outdated than it seemed before?


you what ? laser sails were always naff and only lasted about 6 months if you sailed hard and the xd kit wasn't invented back then, and then of course the sail went from 3.2 to 3.8 ounce material which made little difference to the longevity at all

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 16 Nov 11 at 8:53am
Originally posted by maxibuddah


you what ? laser sails were always naff and only lasted about 6 months if you sailed hard and the xd kit wasn't invented back then, and then of course the sail went from 3.2 to 3.8 ounce material which made little difference to the longevity at all
 
And changing the first number (or two) on the sail to red didn't make them last any longer either.
 
 


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 16 Nov 11 at 9:43am

There's actually a rule that sail numbers should be no more than four digits (Appendix G, rule G1.1 (c) ). however, that doesn't apply to Lasers, as they're a pre-1997 ISAF International class.

 
As a digression, what does ISAF expect an International or Recognised class to do if it reaches number 9999, especially if early boats are still sailing? Presumably thge rule doesn't really affect the laser 2000, as it isn't an International class and the leading 2 isn't really part of the number.


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Al


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 16 Nov 11 at 11:05am
Originally posted by maxibuddah


Originally posted by laser193713


Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by seamonkey

I think it was easier from in the boat actually as you just dropped the tiller for a moment and sort of threw yourself over the boom; one hand on the boom bouncing it down the other pulling the kicker on ...


Makes you wonder why they bothered with the XD kit at all, really, when it was so simple before...


Does it really make you wonder? The Harken XD kit, less so the holt stuff, is in a completely different league to the old kit! It has allowed lighter sailors to progress into the laser due to the ability to depower so easily which makes them more money in boat sails.  Plus it allows them to sell some decent kit at massively inflated prices.  Its a no brainer isnt it?
I do however think half the reason why the sails last such a short amount of time these days is because the loads going through them now are so much higher than they used to be.  Could it be that by updating a small part of the boat (the control lines) they have made another (the sail) look even more outdated than it seemed before?


you what ? laser sails were always naff and only lasted about 6 months if you sailed hard and the xd kit wasn't invented back then, and then of course the sail went from 3.2 to 3.8 ounce material which made little difference to the longevity at all

Try getting 6 months out of a laser sail these days... I used to just have 1 sail that was my event sail and nothing else, open meetings didnt justify that sail even.  Using that sail only in qualifiers, nationals etc it would just about last a year.  For club racing and training i had a sail which was really quite dead and then in the middle i had a sail that was suitable for opens.  These 3 sails got relegated every time I bought a new one which was at least once a year.  

Perhaps it all depends on what you define as a sails racing life...


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Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 16 Nov 11 at 10:31pm

Originally posted by laser193713

Originally posted by maxibuddah


Originally posted by laser193713


Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by seamonkey

I think it was easier from in the boat actually as you just dropped the tiller for a moment and sort of threw yourself over the boom; one hand on the boom bouncing it down the other pulling the kicker on ...


Makes you wonder why they bothered with the XD kit at all, really, when it was so simple before...


Does it really make you wonder? The Harken XD kit, less so the holt stuff, is in a completely different league to the old kit! It has allowed lighter sailors to progress into the laser due to the ability to depower so easily which makes them more money in boat sails.  Plus it allows them to sell some decent kit at massively inflated prices.  Its a no brainer isnt it?
I do however think half the reason why the sails last such a short amount of time these days is because the loads going through them now are so much higher than they used to be.  Could it be that by updating a small part of the boat (the control lines) they have made another (the sail) look even more outdated than it seemed before?


you what ? laser sails were always naff and only lasted about 6 months if you sailed hard and the xd kit wasn't invented back then, and then of course the sail went from 3.2 to 3.8 ounce material which made little difference to the longevity at all

Try getting 6 months out of a laser sail these days... I used to just have 1 sail that was my event sail and nothing else, open meetings didnt justify that sail even.  Using that sail only in qualifiers, nationals etc it would just about last a year.  For club racing and training i had a sail which was really quite dead and then in the middle i had a sail that was suitable for opens.  These 3 sails got relegated every time I bought a new one which was at least once a year.  

Perhaps it all depends on what you define as a sails racing life...

Yup, I'm getting through 2 event sails a season.  That's qualifiers, two europa cups, worlds, and maybe 2-3 opens.

Some people get away with only one sail, but they're quicker than me so don't need the boost Tongue

We're using windsurfer levels of cunningham on dacron sails and after 3 events the leech is a mess.  That I can abide though, because we're pushing the limits of what the sail was designed to do for the sake of performance.  If you want to save your sail, you can use less and just pinch a bit.  If you've got awesome downwind speed you can still do ok!  The masts are a different story however, and will come back bent after a couple of hours practising your roll tacks in 8-10 knots.  It's a real sore point with the sailors at the moment imo.


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 16 Nov 11 at 10:51pm
I never had such a problem with bent masts to be honest, I made very sure that as soon as i was finished in any races or if i was just sat alongside a rib during training that my kicker was fully off.  I still believe this is why i never had a problem with bent masts.  Obviously a few went but the cost of a new top section is nothing compared to over a grand for a new carbon stick for a development boat or even the 100! Also a broken mast in a laser when insured with noble normally leads to a very quick and easy replacement of both sail and mast.  

The quality of the masts is getting worse though i think, I also used to drill out and replace the standard rivet where the masts tend to break. Doing this i could insulate the mast from the rivet which definitely stopped the corrosion.  I couldnt find anything in the rules at the time to stop this and never got any trouble for it at any of the big events i went to.  However, i did once get asked to remove a retaining line that i put round the rear mainsheet block on the boom because i had some dangerously loose rivets, it wasnt doing anything to pull the block closer to the boom or anything.  I argued that if it were to fail i may have required safety assistance but the measurer decided that because if it failed i would be able to continue racing which would have given me an advantage it was illegal.  If it comes to the point where you aren't allowed to improve the reliability and even safety of the boat without improving its performance it just starts to get a bit silly!  

Things like this in the laser class eventually drove me to leave the class and i havent looked back since!


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Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 9:04am
Not just a new topmast...




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Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 9:36am
isn't that the Hansen Aerospace sail- feck all to do with Global Sailing or LPE?


Posted By: Stargazey
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 9:19pm
Fully battoned mylar sail, carbon rig, old Ian Bruce designed hull to keep costs down for those with the old style rig ... that'll be the Byte CII then?


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 8:20am
That guy has got far too much board out the water... it's going to end in tears!

Rig looks a bit out of place too.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 9:00am
I like it. An excellent example of someone doing what they want with a boat, and not being confined to what the powers that be tell you to do. Now  take a wedge out of the side tank corner to make hiking more comfey, put a decent rudder on, forget it was ever called a Laser and have some fun! 

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 9:09am
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/laser-sail-/220900988102?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing_Boats_ET&hash=item336eb994c6 - fully battened mylar 'laser' sail on ebay

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the same, but different...



Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 9:10am
Originally posted by Rupert

I like it. An excellent example of someone doing what they want with a boat, and not being confined to what the powers that be tell you to do. Now  take a wedge out of the side tank corner to make hiking more comfey, put a decent rudder on, forget it was ever called a Laser and have some fun! 


megabyte!


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the same, but different...



Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 18 Dec 11 at 6:42pm
[QUOTE=JimC]There's more on that here.

http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560%5b/QUOTE - http://www.sail-world.com/UK/Perth-2011---Not-always-happy-families-on-Olympic-class-sailing-scene/90560[/QUOTE ]
 
Just to wrap it up; now that the worlds have concluded in Perth, does anyone know how many Laser topmasts were broken during the regatta then?



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