Print Page | Close Window

AC man overboard; penalty

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8181
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 9:57am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: AC man overboard; penalty
Posted By: Andymac
Subject: AC man overboard; penalty
Date Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 1:02am
Interesting, watching some of last weeks highlights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XuxawYAHgI&feature=relmfu - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XuxawYAHgI&feature=relmfu
ETNZ lose a man overboard at the windward mark (Shocked oh **** ! @10:24)...
and are allowed to leave him!
Penalty is to 'lose' two boat lengths on VMG?
 
What does everyone think of this development?
Should it have a place in yacht racing?



Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 1:58am
Well, if you really think that when a little darling in an International Cadet returns her forward hand to the crew pool and finishes without him, then says that 'I saw it on the AC so I thought it was OK', then it might be a problem.
 
But given that these boats aren't carrying spare crew for ballast, and losing a crew member is going to hurt their functionality at some later stage in the race, for very little advantage, and there was probably some decision about whether it was deliberate or not, I don't see a big problem


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 2:44am
You have a valid point Brass, but shouldn't it be a fundamental rule of seamanship to finish with the crew intact?
Granted, on this occasion the crew loss was entirely accidental and didn't materially help them later on, likewise manouvering one of those beasts to retrieve a person in the water wouldn't exactly be easy either.
It just seems counter intuitive to abandon a crewman in the water (however quickly they are retrieved by the safety cover).
I guess the AC can write their own S.I.'s to accomodate this eventuality, but could it encourage crew to take excessive risk?


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 9:21am

The RRS say that you've got recover crew that go over board before continuing your race. In your IC example, the little darling can be protested and disqualified.


To be honest though, the modified rules used by the AC45s in this respect are probably safer in the specific case of those boats and the way they race- presumably if it had been mid leg he'd have picked up by a rib swiftly; at the mark he was able to get quickly to the mark boat and thus out of danger.



-------------
-_
Al


Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 10:55am

I think this is a carry on from the AC proper when both teams agreed that because of speed and maouverability incase of MOB they wouldnt turn back and be picked up by a chase rib. Im assuming that they are getting teams used to working with the rules before the next AC



Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 7:55pm
IIRC there was a case a few editions ago where crew were being deliberately 'dumped' on the final downwind leg as they were no longer required for the sailing of the boat and were therefore excess balast.
 
As you say, it's the AC - they do what they want


-------------
When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss

Crew on 505 8780



Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 9:06pm
 
 
Of course there is always the Bermuda Fitted Dinghy, with their unique rule....
 
A unique rule to racing states that the number of crew to finish a race can be less than the number that started. This can encourage boats to have crew dive off the transom during a race to push the boat forward, help lighten the boat and increase performance.
 
 
I seem to remember Y&Y doing an article on the class some years ago, massively overcanvassed dinghies, now with various rigs for different wind strengths, a crew of 6 (at the start at least), very little freeboard and require constant bailing.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_Fitted_Dinghy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_Fitted_Dinghy
 
 
http://www.rbyc.bm/Portals/6/Gallery/Album/142/IMG_7923%20%28Medium%29.jpg">


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 21 Aug 11 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Andymac

You have a valid point Brass, but shouldn't it be a fundamental rule of seamanship to finish with the crew intact?
Granted, on this occasion the crew loss was entirely accidental and didn't materially help them later on, likewise manouvering one of those beasts to retrieve a person in the water wouldn't exactly be easy either.
It just seems counter intuitive to abandon a crewman in the water (however quickly they are retrieved by the safety cover).
I guess the AC can write their own S.I.'s to accomodate this eventuality, but could it encourage crew to take excessive risk?
 
Firstly, there is no rule in the RRS that obliges a boat to sail in a seamanlike manner or obey 'rules of seamanship', fundamanetal or otherwise.
 
It's not a fundamental rule of seamanship to 'finish with the crew intact'.  It is perfectly seamanlike to have the crew diminish during a voyage for any number of reasons, death, evacuation for various reasons, taken by aliens etc etc.
 
It's not even a requirement of rule 47.2 (yes alstorer, I do know where to find that one), which contains obvious exceptions.
 
People racing sailboats do things that are unseamanlike all the time:  hiking, trapezing, gybing spinnaker poles on heaving foredecks.  There's even a still small voice inside me that says even sailing aboard one of those AC freakboats is an act of poor seamanship.
 
The point of my previous post was to indicate that I don't really think that this sets a seriously bad example to other sailors.
 
That's not to say that I don't dislike the attitude that 'we're AC, we're too cool for rules'.


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 22 Aug 11 at 7:22am
Originally posted by Brass

[QUOTE=Andymac]
 It is perfectly seamanlike to have the crew diminish during a voyage for any number of reasons, ...., taken by aliens etc etc.
 
 
LOL
 
Thanks Brass, I did like that.
 
I wasn't saying that there was a fundamental 'rule of seamanship', rather should there be one?
I am very much of the same opinion as you. My OP was very much an open question seeking opinion on this development.
 
Re; the Bermuda fitted dinghy, is it my poor memory or did this practice of jettisoning 'crew ballast' at the last windward mark also exist in the early days of 18foot skiff racing? has anyone been known to have drowned whilst participating in this practice? or do the sharks get them first?
 


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 22 Aug 11 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Brass

[QUOTE=Andymac]
 It is perfectly seamanlike to have the crew diminish during a voyage for any number of reasons, ...., taken by aliens etc etc.
 
 
LOL
 
Thanks Brass, I did like that.
 
I wasn't saying that there was a fundamental 'rule of seamanship', rather should there be one?
I am very much of the same opinion as you. My OP was very much an open question seeking opinion on this development.
 
Re; the Bermuda fitted dinghy, is it my poor memory or did this practice of jettisoning 'crew ballast' at the last windward mark also exist in the early days of 18foot skiff racing? has anyone been known to have drowned whilst participating in this practice? or do the sharks get them first?
 
 
Yes; a lomg time ago; the 18 footers did dump crew at the end of the last beat.


-------------
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 22 Aug 11 at 2:09pm
I think we are both fumbling around with the same ideas and directions.
 
Indeed the 18 footers were reputed for dropping excess crew off at the windward mark.  No records of sharks ever taking a sailor around Sydney.
 
Legend hath it that this practice was the cause of the present rule rules.
 
Bonus points to anyone who can tell us why this is just a legend.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Aug 11 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by Brass

Bonus points to anyone who can tell us why this is just a legend.

Because 18 footers didn't use IYRU rules in the old days?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 22 Aug 11 at 10:20pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

Bonus points to anyone who can tell us why this is just a legend

Because 18 footers didn't use IYRU rules in the old days?
You win a little something from Teaky's desk.
 
Congratulations.  A management consultant would never have known that answer.



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com