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Odd start question

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7781
Printed Date: 20 Oct 20 at 6:51am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Odd start question
Posted By: alstorer
Subject: Odd start question
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 9:28am

One from the weekend. The course was displayed on the board roughly as this:

I've added the approx wind direction (black arrow) and lines to show the start line (yellow) and finish (orange) as defined by the SIs- the start was a shore transit, with "club" as the outer distance. The finish was between the pole on the start box and "club". The red arrow WAS on the diagram.

The course was described below the diagram as:

Orange Tet (P)-Yellow Tet (P)-Club (P) (5 laps)*

Now, this caused confusion, and in fact most of the fleet failed to start- we mainly, lemming like, rounded Club close to Port and headed for Orange Tet. The RO subsequently abandonded, bt that's another matter

Some claimed that by, after the gun, sailing to the windward side of the line before heading for Orange Tet, they'd started correctly.

Having though about it, I'm not sure they did. Would anyone agree that in fact the correct start would be:

start from upwind of the line, heading down wind. Round the outer distance (Club) to Starboard. Race the course as described from there on in.

It would of course have been better had the RO set a less insane course. But, y'know, he was apparently far more clever than the fleet.

*to be shortened after an hour for average lap racing



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-_
Al



Replies:
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 9:39am
I can't see any reason from what's on the board for assuming that a downwind start and rounding of "club" to starboard would be the correct start. The most likely option would seem to be to treat "club" as a badly misplaced limit mark for the start line, keep it to port but cross the line before heading for orange..

You could probably argue that a windward start across the line up near orange followed by a quick gybe and rounding of orange way before anyone else got there was legal too.

Whichever way you look at it it's incredibly unclear and I'm amazed no one challenged it beforehand!


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 9:56am
No-one realised the transit would be so poor until on the water.

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-_
Al


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 10:30am
I think we need to see the SIs to see how they define the outer end of the line...


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 10:45am
Jeez and I thought our courses can be lame, that race would nver run from our club, he/she would be dragged from the race box and hastily re-educated.

What club is that?

It needs to be on the 'avoid at all cost list' 

Even had it been a windward start over the line between the club and the 'club' it would still have been a lame fetch reach fetch kind of procession..


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 11:13am
GRF, at inland clubs, because of the lack of tide, they can run races in almost zero wind conditions with utterly unpredictable and variable wind direction. This means that if the club/sailors like races to be run in those conditions, then only thing the RO can do is set a small triangle and a start and let the wind do whatever its going to do. You'll find that some clubs will let club races continue in conditions they wouldn't even consider letting an open event start in.

While such races ought to be a complete lottery, its suprising how the best sailors still seem to end up at the front of the fleet - at least if they are in Solos.


Posted By: asterix
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 11:22am
well given that info., I would have started from upwind of the transit (yellow line) as close to the Orange Tet as possible (i.e., top left of the diagram and nowhere near 'Club') and then sailed downwind to Orange Tet and then on round the triangle.  Why did anyone care where Club was at the start?


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 1:24pm
Because it's an outer limit mark for the line.

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

Because it's an outer limit mark for the line.

Yep. I don't know how that can work unless there's something special in the SIs, and so I don't see how we can usefully comment on the situation without seeing them.


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 3:21pm

http://www.weston.org.uk/pdfs/2010/opens/Grand_Slam_SI_2010.pdf - Here's the SIs. It was the Weston Grand Slam. That course was set for the Cat and Assymetric fleets, though the fast and slow handicap fleets used the same start line and first mark.

 



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-_
Al


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 4:15pm

For what it's worth I think you have to go with the downwind start rounding club to starboard.

From RRS Definitions:

Start A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the
starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1
if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line
in the direction of the first mark.



-------------
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 5:53pm
I'd been trying to find somewhere in the RRS to back me up! Wish I'd thought of it earlier- would have been fun trying to first convince my helm to do it, and then to actually attempt the manoeuvre- the confusion it would have caused!

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-_
Al


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 10:40pm
For what it's worth I think you have to go with the downwind start rounding club to starboard.

I'd have assumed that the red arrow is intended to indicate the direction of the course between the yellow mark and the finish (if not what is it doing there?). As it's the only indication anywhere of the direction of travel and there is nothing in the SIs about which way marks are to be rounded then the assumption must surely be that the start is upwind as well and rounding are to port. I can see no possible support for a downwind start.

Also the SI's say:
The starting line will be defined by the transit of a movable pole in front of the race box and a cross fixed to the race box. An inflatable mark will be 
placed in the vicinity of the line to mark the outer distance of the line.

The club buoy may be badly placed but it's pretty clear it's intended to be the limit mark so the correct start must surely be to start to windward inshore of the club mark and then cross the start transit - I'd have thought anywhere along its length would be legal. 


-------------
Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Apr 11 at 11:54pm
Errk, that's not great at all! I concur with those suggesting that with the start as shown you should be starting downwind. I don't think the arrow signifies much at all. The really interesting bit is the limit mark, because with no decent definition of what its supposed to do it could do almost anything... I think you could make a case that you don't need to go round it provided you start nearer the race box than the mark is... Or perhaps that you could go across the line between limit mark and bank in the direction shown by the arrow, duck behind the start line and then head stright off for the mark... Weston, I'm suprised at you... think you'd better rewrite the SIs for next year!


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 28 Apr 11 at 12:55am
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

For what it's worth I think you have to go with the downwind start rounding club to starboard.

From RRS Definitions:

Start A boat starts when, having been entirely on the pre-start side of the
starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1
if it applies, any part of her hull, crew or equipment crosses the starting line
in the direction of the first mark
.

I agree. See the bolded bits of the definition.  Q&A 2009-027 reinforces this.
 
The Club mark, defined as an Outer Distance Mark, lying on the course side of the starting line is a Mark.  It has a required side, defined (by inference) by the word 'outer' in the context of the SI as being "not outside the space between the mark and the Race Box", that is, to be left to Stbd by boats starting downwind.  See Q&A 2010-033 and RYA Appeals 2006/1 and 2008/1.
 
To the extent that the Red Arrow signifies anything about the direction of starting, that is a change to the Definition of Starting in the RRS.  Rule 86.1(a) tells us that the SI cannot change a Definition, thus the Red Arrow improperly purports to change the definition of Start, and thus constitutes an improper action by the Race Committee.
 
I agree that the course board with the Red Arrow is confusing and misleading.  Any boat that claimed that her score had been made significantly worse by relying on the course board, would have, had she delivered her request for redress in time under rule 62.2, been entitled to redress.  Unfortunately waiting for good advice from YachtsandYachting forums is not a good reason for a protest committee to extend the time limit.
 
Once it saw it's mistake and abandoned the race, it was a perfectly proper action for the race committee to abandon the race. Note that, unlike a protest committee abandoning a race under rule 64.2, the race committee is NOT requried to make "as fair an arrangement as possible" for all boats competing, but, under rule 32.1 is only required to "consider the consequences" for all boats in the race or series, and that only if the abandonment is done after one boat has sailed the course and finished.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 28 Apr 11 at 1:10am
Originally posted by JimC

Errk, that's not great at all! I concur with those suggesting that with the start as shown you should be starting downwind. I don't think the arrow signifies much at all. The really interesting bit is the limit mark, because with no decent definition of what its supposed to do it could do almost anything... I think you could make a case that you don't need to go round it provided you start nearer the race box than the mark is... Or perhaps that you could go across the line between limit mark and bank in the direction shown by the arrow, duck behind the start line and then head stright off for the mark... Weston, I'm suprised at you... think you'd better rewrite the SIs for next year!
As discussed in my previous post, I think the ODM is sufficiently defined as a Mark with a required side, on the course side of the starting line.
 
I don't think the SI are particularly problematic:  the problem was caused by queer course selection or mark laying.  Given that the RC was able to vary the starting line by moving the lead transit pole, why on earth did they set a starting line that had the first named mark of the course to leeward of it?


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 30 Apr 11 at 8:25pm
Everybody makes mistakes.
That course is not up to scratch.
It's not possible to cross the start line 'in the direction of the first mark'.
Therefore no valid starters.
If all the boats went the same way, maybe it's OK to let it run, but at the first sign of people interpreting it differently, it should have been abandoned and a new course set.

Courses that encourage barging around one end of the line are bad news at the best of times, this is just beyond what paying competitors should tolerate.
Races need to start with a decent line that allows boats to start roughly level. That means roughly 90 degrees to the wind on a beat or run, or 90 degrees to the course to the first mark.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 02 May 11 at 2:03am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Everybody makes mistakes.
It's not possible to cross the start line 'in the direction of the first mark'.
Therefore no valid starters.
Take another look at the diagram:  both Orange Tet and Club (whichever you wish to consider to be the 'first' mark) are very distinctly on the downwind side of the starting line.  There can be no question of what the 'direction of the first mark' was with respect to the starting line illustrated.
 
The diagram quite closely resembles the situation described in Q&A 2009-027 http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2009027-%5b7230%5d.pdf - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2009027-[7230].pdf
 
 



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