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Start Tactics: How do I not get stuffed?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Technique
Forum Discription: 'How to' section for dinghy questions and answers
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6962
Printed Date: 22 May 22 at 11:56pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Start Tactics: How do I not get stuffed?
Posted By: ellistine
Subject: Start Tactics: How do I not get stuffed?
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:00pm
Our little fleet of 4K's have had quite a laugh this
year. Luckily my comparative boat speed has been enough
to make up for my lack of sailing experience. If we get a
good enough start then we usually keep the lead.

However, I'm sensing a change of tactics. It appears
we're now having bad starts 'forced' upon us. This
usually consists of them being all over us like a rash on
the pre-start and luffed up on the start line approach to
the point where we stall and then generally spend quite a
while in dirty air trying to get moving again.

What are the best counter-tactics to make sure you don't
have to listen to someone going "up you go Keith, up you
go"?



Replies:
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:14pm
just avoid that situation by planning ahead during the pre
start manouvers, keep your head out of the boat??

are the other boats also 4000s? or other boats

if they are other 4000s look at their rig settings to find
how they are out-pointing you...
if other boats you may have to just avoid these situations
or grin and bear it, then trash them on boatspeed :)

-------------
John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:18pm
Yep all 4000s. They don't out point us when sailing but
they do like to use their rights to push us up on the
approach to the start line. Creates them a nice gap to bear
away into and leaves us ducking the boom trying to stop the
bloody thing tacking!

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Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:19pm
next race try and be the ones using the rights, always keep
an eye out to leeward and try and perfect holding position

-------------
John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:33pm
That's what I don't get. I am always trying to get into a
position to do the pushing but always end up getting
pushed.

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by ellistine

What are the best counter-tactics to make sure you don't
have to listen to someone going "up you go Keith, up you
go"?

Be the one doing it to them [grin].
Not something I personally have to think about too much, but its an area covered in most basic racing coaching sessions, see if you can get on a club level course if there's no 4 Tonner coaching available...


Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:44pm
are you getting to the line to early? And sitting there like a duck

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Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by AlexM

are you getting to the line to early? And
sitting there like a duck

Quite possibly. Infact, more than likely. Not a bad point.
Presumably keep it moving then?

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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by ellistine

Originally posted by AlexM

are you getting to the line to early? And
sitting there like a duck

Quite possibly. Infact, more than likely. Not a bad point.
Presumably keep it moving then?


If the fleet find out you are bad at starting then they will be queuing up to start next to you, it makes it an easy option for them. Just try and find a gap with room below you to bear off into, there can't be that many L4000's on the line.


-------------
Needs to sail more...


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 4:04pm
Three, sometimes four 4000's but part of a handicap race so
generally 20 or so other boats.

Perhaps I need to work on my timing and approach a bit
later and faster.

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 5:54pm

What I generally do is position myself below a slower boat that I know will outpoint me on the first beat and try to avoid letting a boat that can outpoint me get in below me.

This is in Handicap races when i am sailing the 8.1 and about the only thing at Hunts that can outpace me upwind is a Phantom, I tend to avoid them like the plague!

In a fleet race it is all about creating yourself a space on the line and protecting it. The trick is to not be there too early or too late. Also remind any boat that come up from below you and luffs up that they have to give you time (and space) to respond. So if you are pretty much stationary on the line they cannot push you up they have to allow you room to get enough boat speed to the rudder works.

The other thing I tend to do in a fleet race is keep moving (unless it is a packed line) and dive in to gap with about 20 s to go and hit the line at full speed. This can punch you out the front and it to clear air really well.

I must point out that because I am at the heavier end of the spectrum for a Laser I do tend to not point quite so high as the flyweights unless it is blowing but go for boatspeed instead which (usually) more than makes up for the extra distance I have to sail.

If the line is short and the course relatively square sometimes you can start at the non favoured end (or away from the favoured end) and in clear air which makes a much bigger difference than winning the correct end. I do this a lot in club racing but not at an open as the standard is much higher.



-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: JRW1019
Date Posted: 22 Jul 10 at 10:59pm
If you do find yourself on the line earlier than you
expected with everyone behind you you need to protect
your position. If there is a gap below you ensure that
you look behind and stop anyone getting too close to you
in that gap, that involve bearing away very slightly or
pushing the boom out, but whatever you can do to protect
the space to leeward then try it. If you are in the
opposite situation trying to find a gap, coming along
behind the fleet on port and tacking into a gap can work
quite well as the boat to windward of the gap has less
they can do about shutting you out.

The trouble with starting late and trying to find a gap
with less time to go is that at the favoured end space
may be at a premium and gaps are hard to come by. I would
imagine 4000's accelerate quite quickly so it may pay to
be reasonably close to the line earlyish

-------------
RS200 1019/1154
Firefly 3082
Ajax 14


Posted By: grimupnorth
Date Posted: 24 Jul 10 at 11:04am
The 4000 is a very tough boat to handle in pre-start,
especially if you're used to a boat with soft sails that
is comfortable sailing 'almost stopped' - we learned this
very dramatically the other day doing club race training
as the only 4000 among lots of lasers!
I presume you've read all the stuff on the L4k website
cos I have seen you posting there ;-)
One approach is to keep some speed on and plan a start
based on time-over distance; either by sailing up to the
line on a slowish close reach and protecting your lane as
you go; or come in from the left on port and hope to find
a lane to tack into.
Otherwise you need (like we do!) to find ways of slowing
almost to a stop, which is v v difficult - there is
always the possibility of the boat heading up into irons
and then tacking, so the crew needs to have the lazy jib
sheet in hand ready to back the sail and flip the boat
back round. Coming to a complete stop involves backing
the main and learning then how to get the boat moving
again. What makes your life extra difficult is the
influence of the extremely long L4K daggerboard - when
flow over it breaks down at low speed, the boat becomes
very hard to control.
Learning how to do a 'bail out & gybe round' routine
under control is probably useful too :-)
We feel your pain!


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 25 Jul 10 at 11:12am
Actually the 4000 doesn't accelerate that fast because 1.
its heavy and 2. it has to get up to quite a high speed
which takes time.

I think you may have realised that you are sitting on the
line, better to come in fast, duck all the slow boats and
you'll be in clear air before you know it.


Posted By: grimupnorth
Date Posted: 25 Jul 10 at 4:58pm
Also . . . check out the 'Higher & Faster' DVD for some
pre-start techniques. Then look at the results tally for
Alistair Richardson & Peter Greenhalgh, realise that they
are making it look very easy, and go for a nice cup of tea
and a quiet lie down :-)


Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 25 Jul 10 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by redback

Actually the 4000 doesn't accelerate that
fast

I'm glad you said that. I was starting to think it was me!

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Posted By: LarFinn
Date Posted: 13 Sep 10 at 6:54pm
I've just posted a load of videos to You Tube from this weekend Finn Masters at Roadford Lake. 6 of the 8 are about 2 minutes long starting from just before the 1 minute to go horn. Well worth a watch to see the different tactics. Fleet size was 15, so busy but not overcrowded. I was on the Committee boat so all the action is close up but I was about 5 foot back from the line - i.e. not looking straight down the line.

-------------
Andi

Finn GBR75





Posted By: dave101
Date Posted: 13 Feb 11 at 8:28am
Last year I did an open meeting where everyone lined up on the start line early, waited on the start line for a while and accelerated just before the start gun. From what I read that is the correct way to start. Since that open meeting I have been trying to do the same thing myself. However I have trouble stopping the boat at the right point, and when I do try to stop the boat tends to sneak forward/backwards or go into ions.

Does anyone have any tips on approach position and timing, and the best way to hold the boat (angle to wind, centerboard position etc.)?




Posted By: Bryn_14
Date Posted: 13 Feb 11 at 11:38am
Originally posted by dave101

Last year I did an open meeting where everyone lined up on the start line early, waited on the start line for a while and accelerated just before the start gun. From what I read that is the correct way to start. Since that open meeting I have been trying to do the same thing myself. However I have trouble stopping the boat at the right point, and when I do try to stop the boat tends to sneak forward/backwards or go into ions.

Does anyone have any tips on approach position and timing, and the best way to hold the boat (angle to wind, centerboard position etc.)?



What boat do you sail? It has quite a big effect on timings and start strategies IMHO


-------------
Rs300 455

http://my-300.blogspot.com/ - My 300 blog


Posted By: dave101
Date Posted: 13 Feb 11 at 6:06pm
I'm sailing a Laser


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 14 Feb 11 at 7:18pm
No kicker, boom out, heel a lot to windward.  The kicker and heel make a lot of difference.  You can leaglly jab the rudder as long as it doesn't move the boat forward.  Watch the RYA volvo training videos  http://www.ryachampionclubtv.co.uk/ - http://www.ryachampionclubtv.co.uk/

http://www.ryachampionclubtv.co.uk/play.asp?Title=Laser%20-%20Stopping&Category=LASER - http://www.ryachampionclubtv.co.uk/play.asp?Title=Laser%20-%20Stopping&Category=LASER


-------------
Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: dave101
Date Posted: 14 Feb 11 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by Garry

No kicker, boom out, heel a lot to windward.  The kicker and heel make a lot of difference.  You can leaglly jab the rudder as long as it doesn't move the boat forward.  Watch the RYA volvo training videos  http://www.ryachampionclubtv.co.uk/ - http://www.ryachampionclubtv.co.uk/

http://www.ryachampionclubtv.co.uk/play.asp?Title=Laser%20-%20Stopping&Category=LASER - http://www.ryachampionclubtv.co.uk/play.asp?Title=Laser%20-%20Stopping&Category=LASER

Thanks, those videos are very good, plenty of things to try next weekend!



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