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Trapeze+Asymmetric for lightweights

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Topic: Trapeze+Asymmetric for lightweights
Posted By: Mister Nick
Subject: Trapeze+Asymmetric for lightweights
Date Posted: 27 Feb 10 at 8:10pm
Hello, me and a friend are looking for a boat that we can
sail together before we buy a 29er. We are both 14, I am
52kg and he is 58kg. My friend would be crewing, and I
would be helming. We are looking for something with a
trapeze, and an asymmetric spinnaker that is under 3K. My
friend hasn't got much trapezing experience, so we don't
want to move straight onto a 29er. Unless you guys think we
could move straight onto a 29er and he could learn like
that? Thanks.



Replies:
Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 27 Feb 10 at 9:45pm

Obvious choice is a Hobie 405 - until recently they were the RYA pathway boat - leading to 29er. Quite cheap and reasonably easy to find..

There will be quite a few come on and say 'just get a 29er'. But at 110kg, you're probably a bit too light really  - IMO better to get some trapezing / assy experience, put on a few Kgs and then go for it.



Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 27 Feb 10 at 10:12pm

You'll be fine in a 3000. Our 2004 champ crew weighed 110kg for helm and crew combined, most races in a F.4-5. My crew & I are around 120 but with the lighter one on the wire (can't helm) and that is fine

Prices for Laser 3000's from around £1300 up, depending on age & condition. Plenty of pimping available for very little cost but big space/simplicity/handling gains along the lines of the latest new boats from Vandercraft. It's even recommended you rig the mainsheet 29er style, in which case the crew can take the mainsheet straight off the boom, as mine wasn't doing on my old L3k here (to be fair, she was a scratch crew that day, and I like to steer with the mainsheet in the gusts anyway):

Our website (see below) should be up and running yet again soon . If you need any more info in the meantime, just ask.



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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 27 Feb 10 at 10:13pm

You could have inadvertently mentioned another reasonable choice in your post...

I'm sure you could get a decent 3K (Laser 3000) for under £3K!

Edit; Medway Maniac beat me to the post button by seconds! Great minds think alike?



Posted By: tomoore1
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 12:06am

Truth be told at 110Kg you would be fine in a 29er after you got used to handling the boat. If your friend has no trap experience then it will take longer for you to get to grips with the boat. I would try and get a 405. They are solid, cheap (under 1K). That means that when you move on to a 29er you can keep the 405 for when its blowing old boots instead of trashing the 9er and/or spending your whole race upside down.

No offence Medway Manic but I really would get the 405 over a L3000. Firstly they are slightly more expensive, secondly the 405 is closer to a 29er than the L3000 is. For your 3K budget you could easily get a 29er and 405 and then pick your days to go out in the 29er. IMO that would be your best bet.

T?om



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Restoring Firefly 517


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 9:09am
Originally posted by tomoore1

the 405 is closer to a 29er than the L3000 is.

I'd be interested to know how you work that out. 405's may be nice little boats, but there's no way you'd get apparent wind sailing with a boat of PY 1090 (that's Wayfarer speed) like the 405, whereas with the L3k you sometimes can (and with the V3k it's usual). Mainsheet and gnav on the 3k can be made effectively identical to the 29er.



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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by tomoore1


the 405 is closer to a 29er than the L3000 is.



I'd be interested to know how you work that out. 405's
may be nice little boats, but there's no way you'd get
apparent wind sailing with a boat of PY 1090 (that's
Wayfarer speed) like the 405, whereas with the L3k you
sometimes can (and with the V3k it's usual). Mainsheet
and gnav on the 3k can be made effectively identical to
the 29er.



I'm with Medway on this. The 405 is a nice little boat
but in no way compares to a 29er. The 3000 is much
closer, although its still a large step if you go on to
make the change later.

If your aiming to get a 29er then Id say start in a cheap
3k

Ian


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 12:58pm
+1 for the L3k

Excellent Boat, only boat we can truly say to have planed up wind with.


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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 1:16pm
Did you just praise and recommend a boat with a Bethwaite-designed hull?

Who are you, and what have you done with the real G.R.F.?

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-_
Al


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by alstorer

Did you just praise and recommend a boat with a
Bethwaite-designed hull?

Who are you, and what have you done with the real G.R.F.?


He must have designed it before he became hooked on mind altering drugs.

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https://www.edgeactionsports.co.uk/products/kali-chakra-helmet" rel="nofollow - Bike helmet sale


Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

+1 for the L3k

Excellent Boat, only boat we can truly say to have planed
up wind with.


+1 also

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John Hamilton
cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime
cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia
laser 176847 - kiss this
[FORSALE]


Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.


He must have designed it before he became hooked on mind altering drugs.


Laser, Laser 2, Contender, FD, are all similar and nothing like any other bethwaite boat.




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http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 5:10pm

I seem to recall that when Frank Bethwaite was asked to design the Laser 2 (= 3k hull shape), he was asked to use the Laser 1 as a starting point and drop the shape he'd used on the Tasar. Hence the similarity of Lasers 1 & 2, although according to his book he was careful to shape the stern quarters of the 2 to avoid the high-speed instability apparently inherent in the Laser 1. He attributes the L2 hull mostly to his Cherub design that was successful at the time.

Don't forget that the 9ers and recent designs are largely Julian Bethwaite's work, rather than his dad's.



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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 5:35pm
Hmmm, Laser 3000 sounds like a VERY attractive idea. Anyone
got one for sale?

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Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 8:42pm

http://www.boatsandoutboards.com/view/F222640 - http://www.boatsandoutboards.com/view/F222640

http://www.boatsandoutboards.com/view/F222457 - http://www.boatsandoutboards.com/view/F222457

http://www.boatsandoutboards.com/view/F221377 - http://www.boatsandoutboards.com/view/F221377

A few to get you going.



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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 28 Feb 10 at 11:38pm

There's 3 x listed in the Y&Y classified section as well (could be the same 3 though?).

 



Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 12:35pm
Nick

Are you coming to the dinghy show this weekend. If you are come see myself and medway maniac on the 3000 Class Stand.


Dan


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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 1:01pm
I find it hard to believe the 3 Tonner is any better at that weight than a 29er. It is a bit easier to sail I guess. Plenty of our youngsters have learned to use trapezes on 29ers, but usually a year or so older. A lot depends on where you sail, but in your place I'd be mulling over the choice between the 405 and the 29er.


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 2:10pm
having sailed all three (and at the right crew weight) 405, L3000 (&LII) and
29er with a novice trap crew. Go for the L3000. It will be an all round less
fraught experience and therefore more fun. There is much more
commitment ( confidence ) required from the crew on a 29er and without it
will be unpleasant.

edit: you'll also find it hard to get rid of a 405, and they are a far less well
thought out boat than a L3000.

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Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by hollandsd

NickAre you coming to the dinghy show
this weekend. If you are come see myself and medway maniac
on the 3000 Class Stand.Dan


I shall try and make it to the Dinghy Show. Are you guys
there both days?

Thanks for all the replies guys, the Laser 3000 seems to be
the way to go :) Has anyone else got a cheap one for sale
(except the nice guy who has already contacted me)?

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Posted By: dontdocalm!
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 8:04pm
The 3000 - Laser or Vandercraft - will be a far more enjoyable experience than the 405. But, if you want a route into the RYA 29er squads (wash my mouth out), then the 405 circuit is, unfortunately, still the way to go, assuming you are still young enough. At 14, though, I think you've probably left it a bit late.


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 8:21pm

I'll be at the show on Sunday, Nick, but frankly all the guys on the stand should be able to give you any info you need. Hope to see you anyway.

Tony



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http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 8:21pm
Whats wrong witht he one someone has offered you, how many 3000's do you need??

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Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

Whats wrong witht he one someone has
offered you, how many 3000's do you need??


Nothing wrong with what he offered me at all, I was just
curious to know if anyone else had something for sale.

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Posted By: tomoore1
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 10:30pm

TBH mate, if you want a 9er get one. But make sure your crew knows you will get wet while you learn. Whats the point in buying a L3000/ 405 (or anything else) if after a year you are going to sell it. Buy the 9er and get used to the boat. Although you might not realise it in the first year, a few years down the line the extra time in the boat will really help you. When its really windy all but the top guys p1ss it in (I'v been rescue boat for the nats). There are a few other 14/15 year olds on the circuit so its not too early.

This is only going to work if you accept you both have a lot of learning to do and that it will take time and practise.

No offense Tony, I would promote my class in exactly the same way you are, its just my PERSONAL opinion.



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Restoring Firefly 517


Posted By: FireballNeil
Date Posted: 01 Mar 10 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by dontdocalm!

The 3000 - Laser or Vandercraft - will
be a far more enjoyable experience than the 405. But, if
you want a route into the RYA 29er squads (wash my
mouth out
), then the 405 circuit is, unfortunately,
still the way to go, assuming you are still young enough.
At 14, though, I think you've probably left it a bit
late.


Not anymore, I know people from 405 squads that have
struggled to get into the 29er squads, because the 405 is
no longer rya recognised

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Neil



Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by tomoore1

TBH mate, if you want a 9er get one. But make
sure your crew knows you will get wet while you learn. Whats the point in
buying a L3000/ 405 (or anything else) if after a year you are going to
sell it. Buy the 9er and get used to the boat. Although you might not
realise it in the first year, a few years down the line the extra time in the
boat will really help you. When its really windy all but the top guys p1ss it
in (I'v been rescue boat for the nats). There are a few other 14/15 year
olds on the circuit so its not too early.


This is only going to work if you accept you both have a lot of learning
to do and that it will take time and practise.


No offense Tony, I would promote my class in exactly the same way
you are, its just my PERSONAL opinion.




Thing is whist you are getting wet you are not learning anything, apart
from good capsize recovery. When you know you are going to capsize all
the time it dampens ( pun intended ) the whole desire to go out and
seriously limits the amount of wind you are prepared to sail in. Reducing
the amount of time sailing, learning and skills building opportunities .
And most importantly constant capsizing destroys confidence and may
end in disagreements, and the brake down of the sailing relationship.

Get a L3000 or V3000, get things sorted and if you want to move over to
the 29er ( and that that brings, decide after the basics are all honed ).





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Posted By: Neal_g
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 1:08pm

my mate went from toppers to 29er when they were 14 goingon 15 by the time they were 15 and a half they were too heavy for the 29er.

get a 29er sail it in the breeze your happy with, if it is too windy then shore drills wire to wire tacking etc, as tom says more time in the boat the better and as you go out more you'll learn technique is a lot better than weight

 



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(Redoubt Sc)
Miracle 4040
GP14 13407

Crewsaver phase 2 range now available to buy online on at http://www.gibsonsails.com


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 1:21pm

The reason i sail an 3k not a 29er is because I don't want to spend most of my sailing time thinking about keeping the boat upright. 29ers are tippy. I also don't want to sail a youth boat! The 3k class is much more relaxed, if much smaller.

In your position, Nick, I'd try the 29er in a reasonable wind before jumping in buying. You can also try a 3k; if you're not Olympic hopefuls, you might decide to stay with it anyway.



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Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 5:46pm

Im going to pitch in a Vago

 

Hear me out.
Pretty simple boat and actually quite fun

Good to learn trapezing in and I know I have taught people to trapeze in one and they pick it up pretty quick.

Its got 2 rigs, the S can be used in the really brexy stuff or the XD for some power.

On a performance scale probably does not match a V3000 or the 29er, (by probablyI mean definatley) but in a F5-6 its one hell of a laugh!
And the bow is quite buoyant so no going down the mine (unless you really try)

 

Just another one to discuss, add's to the fun



Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by zailor

Im going to pitch in a Vago


 


Hear me out.Pretty simple boat and actually quite
funGood to learn trapezing in and I know I have taught
people to trapeze in one and they pick it up pretty
quick.Its got 2 rigs, the S can be used in the really
brexy stuff or the XD for some power.On a performance
scale probably does not match a V3000 or the 29er, (by
probablyI mean definatley) but in a F5-6 its one hell of
a laugh!And the bow is quite buoyant so no going down the
mine (unless you really try)


 



Hmmm, the only problem with the Laser Vago is that they
are more expensive than most Laser 3000's. Its going to
be a case of getting the money together any way we can.
As I have said, we are both 14 so we are going to find it
hard to raise anything more than 1.5k quickly :/ We want
to get the boat asap so we can organise what club its
going to stay at and sorting out anything that needs
sorting.

Just another one to discuss, add's to the
fun



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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 6:08pm

I'll let others comment on the Vago if they wish. But here is an interactive map of locations of active (in 2009!) 3k's.

http://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=136067 - http://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=136067

Might be worth checking out if you're still choosing a club; maybe get in touch with the local sailor through the club and find out their plans this season.



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Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 6:10pm
A 3000 is your best bet IMO. 405 is slower, more tippy and
more difficult to sell on. Of course that does mean that
they are cheaper to buy. But a 3000 is fast and
controllable. Not too expensive and still current enough to
sell when you want to get a 29er. Ignore the Vago. It's not
a bad boat but I don't think it will be the right choice
for you as the 29er's main features are it's light weight
and responsiveness, neither of which the Vago has.

-------------
English Dave
http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

Hurricane 5.9 SX
RS700


Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 6:46pm
Very good point above^

However the Vago also has a GNAV (as does the V3000 porobably lol)


Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by zailor

Very good point above^However the Vago
also has a GNAV (as does the V3000 porobably
lol)


Yes it does and I think the L3000 can be converted. In
the interests of fairness, however, I should point out
that the Vago shares the 29er's high boom for easy(er)
crossing of the boat whereas the 3000's boom is
relatively low. I like the Vago and if I was without a
regular crew and wanted to sail S/H it would be on my
list. But it's not the right boat for a new crew who have
29er aspirations in the near future.

Has anyone ever put an assymetric on a Fireball?

-------------
English Dave
http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

Hurricane 5.9 SX
RS700


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 8:28pm

Originally posted by English Dave

Originally posted by zailor





Has anyone ever put an assymetric on a Fireball?

Yes - It really didn't suit it. I'm sure someone clever will find the photo and post it again

There was an L3000 being raced this weekend at Whitefriars by 2 young teenagers. They were having an absolutely fantastic time, and when they got it right, the boat really took off. I'd get one if I was in their position, too.



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 Mar 10 at 8:38pm
Rupert, I notice there are three 3000's racing on and off at Whitefriars. Ironically, one of our Travellers Series regulars sails at South Cerney next door! I believe he plans to get in touch - seems a shame they aren't all racing together.

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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: tristanovacondio
Date Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 11:55am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d2j-i6kymsI


Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 10 Nov 11 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by tristanovacondio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=d2j-i6kymsI

Bit late now, I've had an RS500 for a season and a half. :P Thanks anyway!


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Posted By: The Big Wednesday
Date Posted: 21 Feb 19 at 3:42pm
Somewhat late in the day but better late than never.  The Hobie 405 was designed as the RYA Intermediate Youth Training dinghy so probably not suitable for those who are adult and lardy.  It's more challenging than a Feva or Topaz, and the like but more manageable tham a 29-er.   The Laser / Vander Craft  3000 mentioned above is essentially designed for adults, not juniors.  Second hand examples are also considerably more expensive so not comparable IMO.   My son is 13 and an ex-Tera sailor and had no issues getting to grips with the 405.

Below is a new online resource for junior sailors interested in finding out about the HOBIE 405, a performance dinghy that was (and is) much ahead of its time in many respects. The Hobie 405 was designed from the ground up as the RYA intermediate youth training dinghy, not a leisure boat with go-faster add-ons. With great build quality, an asymmetric, single wire and PY of 1089 it  ticks a lot of teenage boxes and still offers a manageable and very affordable entry into real asymmetric sailing for younger sailors.  With competitive 2nd hand examples often around the £500.00 mark with combi, what's not to like?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/309480016377777/?ref=gs&fref=gs&dti=1026807747364902&hc_location=group" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/groups/309480016377777/








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