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Death roll recovery

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6229
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 11:46am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Death roll recovery
Posted By: zailor
Subject: Death roll recovery
Date Posted: 11 Dec 09 at 8:26pm
Hi all.

Just to start the boat in question is the Byte CII

Now on the rooster DVD in oreder to survive the death roll you bear away further and move weight into the boat.
Makes sence.

Now on the http://www.byteclass.org - www.byteclass.org website the how to video reckons you pull the sheet sharply and head up?

Now on the rooster DVD pushing the rudder to head up will accelerate the roll?

Whats the solution?



Replies:
Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 11 Dec 09 at 8:54pm
time in boat!!!!

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When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss

Crew on 505 8780



Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 11 Dec 09 at 9:08pm
Having watched neither video, and never sailed a byte (so well informed then!), perhaps the Byte class video is focusing on stopping you swimming, whilst the rooster one is more focused on converting the roll into speed?

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-_
Al


Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 11 Dec 09 at 9:22pm
Hi Zailor,

I have always found it best to try to quickly move into the boat and, at the
same time, push the tiller away and pull in a yard of mainsheet.

If the boat starts to 'rock and roll', e.g. with an unstayed rig, I find it best to
sheet in a bit and put some plate down until you get yourself stable and
sorted out.

Ian (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 11 Dec 09 at 10:11pm

I tried the rooster way in my OK and couldn't believe it ..... absolutley amazing.

It feels counter-intuitive to me having done the opposite for 25 years, but my 10 year old lad went to a Steve Cockerill talk just after he started racing and has done it Steve's way from the start. Okay, it's an optimist he sails rather than something unstable, but he'll go out when it's really blowy and push it to the limit downwind knowing he can recover with a quick pull of the tiller.

Once you've done it a few times you'll know which is best.



Posted By: Hengest
Date Posted: 11 Dec 09 at 10:16pm
I'm no expert, but don't both methods achieve the same thing by in effect oversheeting the main ?


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 11 Dec 09 at 11:04pm
Definately bear away harder. The rudder has a bigger effect than you may think. Also as your mast is effectively the leech downwind, then bearig away actually feathers the rig a bit easing some of the power.

Doesnt work on the 700 though as I cant let the main out that far!


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 9:01am
What if you are already sailing dead downwind, if you bear away you will be sailing by the lee or even gybe? Also it must depend on how close you are to the mark and whether you take it to port or starboard.


Posted By: Alistair426
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 9:04am
The pointing up and sheeting in, bit more board down option is 'calming things down' the Rooster bear-away is more of a 'get out of jail when you tested the limits and just crossed them' approach. If you think about the plane of the rudder  as it provides the counter-intuitive lift to the bow, it has to be getting somewhere near horizontal in the water to have the dramatic effect you experience when you do it.


Posted By: zzzz
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 9:40am
When you are in a death roll situation, as in: if you do nothing you are going swim, the boat is already coming on top of you, kind of situation (hence the name DEATH ROLL, traditionally this is accompanyed by panic, a brown wetsuit and just enough time for a quick expletive before hitting the water pretty hard).  If you push the tiller away from you, best get your armbands on and book some swimming lessons at the local pool. The boat wants to bear away (windward heel), the rudder wants to head up, result: a big fight in which neither you or the boat will win, the water always wins that one hands down.  Gotta be bear away every time (in a laser or similar type of boat such as a byte).


Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 11:43am
pushing the rudder away from you to point up when the boat is heeled to windward is very unnatural, it feels awful, as the boat is trying to bear away and you are trying to stop it, its very slow!

pulling the rudder towards you is the correct way to do it, no if's or buts. you dont have to bear away too much, a sharp stab is usually enough to bring it flat again, if you dont want to bear off on a long arc.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 1:13pm
I always thought the bearing away thing is for when you are sailing by the lee, as effectively the sail is reversed. When on a run but not by the lee, luffing up will be the way to save yourself. I think I'd like some warmer water to fall into than we currently have to figure out which one works better when!

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 2:21pm

My understanding is that it has very little to do with the sail, and it's all about using the lift from the rudder to get the boat level.

If you push the tiller the lift acts in the opposite way and pulls the boat over on top of you.



Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 2:37pm
you are correct GarethT, it is all to do with the lift of the rudder rather than anything to do with the sails or your angle to the wind.

to test this without gettig wet, just find a boat with a cradle trolley, like an RS4/200, put it on the trolley as if its heeled, put the rudder on and then grab hold of the rudder blade and physically pull towards whatever gunwhale is higher, you will see the boat tries to heel even more.  this demonstrates pushing the tiller away when the boat is heeled to windward, or pulling the tiller towards you when heeled to leeward.

http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen= hints&Store_Code=1 then click on the 4th dimension link.  this explains the theory quite well with some videos


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 4:47pm
I always thought that death roll was caused by wind spilling from the top of the sail pushing the mast sideways to windward, when it goes too far the righting moment forces shove the boat back and the rock and roll starts. Am I wrong then?


Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 7:09pm

Im so gald I was right to question the Byte class video guite

 

I did think that heading up would make the death part come faster.
Hoever today I did try simply pumping the sail and to be fair it did stop the roll.
I did induce the roll by letting out too much sheet but one tug did bring it upright.

The "rooster roll" by pushing down on the opposite gunnel did seem to add speed so a good tug on the sheet seems to fix it if im in a tight area surouned boy boats but the bear away which was my initial instinct does seem to beat the CII class video's



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Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 7:30pm
My usual death roll recovery, is breaststroke!!!!!  Not a great help but the unfortunate truth..


Posted By: Strangler
Date Posted: 12 Dec 09 at 11:00pm

Originally posted by zzzz

When you are in a death roll situation, as in: if you do nothing you are going swim, the boat is already coming on top of you, kind of situation (hence the name DEATH ROLL, traditionally this is accompanyed by panic, a brown wetsuit and.....

Now now you naughty boys and girls you are not allowed to call it a death roll, it scares beginners. Sailing schools call it a SPEED WOBBLE. After hearing this from an instructor sailing in the FD fleet we decided to call it a PINK FLUFFY KITTEN. You could never get scared of that could you! Ha!



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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Dec 09 at 8:30am
Originally posted by Strangler

Now now you naughty boys and girls you are not allowed to call it a death roll, it scares beginners. Sailing schools call it a SPEED WOBBLE. After hearing this from an instructor sailing in the FD fleet we decided to call it a PINK FLUFFY KITTEN. You could never get scared of that could you! Ha!

I call it an 'oh b******s', normally about 0.2s before I hit the water



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 13 Dec 09 at 9:49am
It's called "Death Roll" because the outcome is inevitable like death, not because it will cause death. No problem for the "undead" then, (GRF) ?


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 09 at 10:22am
Originally posted by Strangler


Now now you naughty boys and girls you are not allowed to call it a death roll, it scares beginners. Sailing schools call it a SPEED WOBBLE.


Shouldn't be teaching beginners dead runs anyway, "training runs" with a margin of error to reduce accidental crash gybes are the order of the day.

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-_
Al


Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 13 Dec 09 at 8:59pm
Do you really want to teach new kids how to sail downwind in big death roll conditions. sorry I meant Pink fluffy Kitten speed wobble roll.

If anyone can say that during a death roll I'll send them a free video cammera to prove it

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Posted By: Strangler
Date Posted: 14 Dec 09 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by alstorer

Originally posted by Strangler


Now now you naughty boys and girls you are not allowed to call it a death roll, it scares beginners. Sailing schools call it a SPEED WOBBLE.


Shouldn't be teaching beginners dead runs anyway, "training runs" with a margin of error to reduce accidental crash gybes are the order of the day.

I'm not an instructor, maybe the mere fact that beginners may overhear the term is enough to change the name! Or its too scarey for intermediates learning the run too?



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Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 16 Dec 09 at 12:59pm

Was a big problem when I sailed a Contender and I think it happened mostly when the boom was a long way out on a run and a gust twists the leach away until it's exhausting out of the top. This drives the rig to windward. Pulling in a big armful of mainsheet (either 1:1 or 2:1) and a big steer away from the wind seemed to be enough to get things under control in most conditions...

I don't think it's fast though... although it has been said that a Contender goes quickest just before the point of no return, shortly after this point things get quite slow.



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Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36


Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 16 Dec 09 at 2:27pm
yeah i think thats the same in most boats. i once asked big ben his tips for downwind sailing and he replied if you are just about to capsize, you are sailing fast haha


Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 16 Dec 09 at 4:45pm
Yea doesnt the hull speed doulbe during a gybe or something like that

Even if that is the case I am not Gybing all the way downwind

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