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29X or just a SMOD cherub?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=611
Printed Date: 05 Dec 20 at 12:37am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 29X or just a SMOD cherub?
Posted By: andy_cherub
Subject: 29X or just a SMOD cherub?
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 11:55am

Anyone else out there feel that the 29er X is just a SMOD version of a cherub? It is terrible - why buy that when you can buy an off the shelf RMW cherub? Madness has become of beholder of evil 

Andy



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-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff



Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 12:07pm

I totally agree, Buy a cherub instead

are you going to be at the blast this weekend at castle cove andy?



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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 12:08pm

Spot the difference



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 12:11pm

I am indeed - im gona be there with Tim in 2643 - 49ers staying at home! Who is this? sorry!

Andy



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 12:18pm
I'm tom, I'm a photographer for http://www.fotoboat.com - www.fotoboat.com , I love cherubs and am coming up to sail a few at the blast.I met a few cherub people at the dinghy show. Any chance you could take me for a spin in 2643 this weekend?

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 12:23pm

Hi Andy_Cherub,

I actually quite like the idea of the 29erX as I think it would be a good mass production stepping stone from the 29er to the 49er. Its a massive jump and seems to make sense. Cherubs are great but lets be honest they are for people that like seriously bimbling and tweaking their boats.

The 29er X would probabl;y give you the speed and excitment without the boat building repairs and tweaks that like it or not go hand in hand with a cherub. I should knwo I'm a Moth sailor and know that the Cherub that sails up with us in Scotland is always getting new bits put on and taken off.

So there is probably a very healthy market and future for the 29er X in my mind.

Keith......



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Keith...


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 12:29pm

Hummmm, true - but then again the new RMW cherub wont need any tweaks etc, and there is a definate divide between SMOD and development sailors. So really - its all personal preference, I just say that Bethwaite is 'coppying' the cherub to develop his range further.

And Tom - 2643 is my friends boat so I cant say for sure, but im sure you can & there will be plenty of other cherubs to try!

Or failing that - wana buy my 49er? I made the mistake of going plastic and now im selling her cheap so I can get back into the 12ft game.

Andy



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: ssailor
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 12:49pm
There is definetly a difference between the two as the 29erx will be a one design, having raced a 29er and now owning a int14 i know that the 14 requires much more tinkering and because its a development class, you are always thinking of new things to be done.

Many people will want to buy the 29erx as a step up from the 29er to the 49er, unless the cherubs made a one design there will always be people who would rather sail a 29er/x/49er. Personally i prefer development but there are many different people out there!


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Any one in need of quality carbon fibre work (tillers etc) at decent prices!

Int 14 Gbr 1244 'Nucking Futs'

The New Port rule!!.


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 12:50pm

Originally posted by andy_cherub

Madness has become of beholder of evil.

Care to explain what, if anything, that actually means?

 



Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 1:12pm

Also note that the 29er is still quicker than the cherub round a course anyway so the 29erX sounds like it might be inbetween 29er and 14 type handicap.

Another thing i think is important is that the cherubs have just adopted the twin wire rule and made its rig slightly bigger so all this is being adopted but its characteristics aren't yet proven but you can bet your money that the 29erX would be well tested and come pretty much sorted out of the packaging.

Dont wat to dampen enthusiasm of cherub guys as I know the class is really booming with interest and activity but alot of people will prefer an off the shelf solution.

Keith...



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Keith...


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 1:21pm
the cherab is a nice boat but the 29er is a better one and you are more liky to get fleet racing in it and hat will atract more people

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Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 1:32pm

The 29erX will probably be a nice enough boat to sail and will probably be quite popular. I would worry about the longevity of the hulls if they do what has been suggested and put the bigger rig on the existing 29er hulls.

There is a good chance that it will be quicker than a cherub for the same reason that the 49 is quicker that the 14 it is a lot longer.

Any development boat is going to need tweeking every so often and the RMW boat will be no different. Obviously my new boat from dlboats will never require any repairs or modifications :-)



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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 2:09pm
Aye but a normal 29er is quicker than a cherub anyway???

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Keith...


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 2:36pm
Not down wind its not! & on 97 rules, in twin wire conditions I could pace an RS800 upwind, and blitz it down! Now with new rules - I bet that a cherub could blitz a 49er off the wind! & be honest - is this not the most enjoyable tack to sail?

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:07pm
i dont think that you could blitz a 49er down wind!!  the 49er has loads more sail area than a cherub!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:12pm
seriosly, they can blitz RS800's, they now have bigger rigs and bigger spinnys! 49ers beware!

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:15pm

Aye but I'm talking about racing around a course. Unfortunately downwind is only 1 bit of the story.

Saw Cherubs getting gubbed round the course by 29ers in light and strong winds so lets not kid ourselves eh!

As for 800's there is no way a Cherub will be near an 800 round the course. It will be murdered upwind!

Keith...



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Keith...


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:24pm
i think the cherubs were probably being sailed rubbish, cherubs rule and are full of cheruby goodness!

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:27pm

well one of the guys up here came 2nd or 3rd in the nationals last year!

 



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Keith...


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:33pm

they're must have been someting wrong

 



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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:39pm

 

How do you work that out

29er sails of 924 and a Cherub sails of 975.

I'm missing something here?????



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Keith...


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:42pm

 

anyway forget your sea hugging cherubs and 29ers.

Get a foiling Moth. Much more fun and much faster;



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Keith...


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:46pm

fair enough

foiling moth beats all, i sailed a normal moth the other day, great fun! I want to have a go in a foiling one now



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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: ssailor
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 3:57pm


Or just get a foiling int14!!!!!!!!!!


-------------
Any one in need of quality carbon fibre work (tillers etc) at decent prices!

Int 14 Gbr 1244 'Nucking Futs'

The New Port rule!!.


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 4:01pm

 

OK even cooler.

Is this a UK boat? where was the photo taken?



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Keith...


Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 4:13pm
good to see you have now got some sponsorship, Keith. Great news!
Those people at www.vizarch.co.uk know a good thing when they see it!

They have kindly sponsored my Spitfire as well!
(which, incidentally, will whip all your sorry-ass Cherubs and 29er's, and
not fall over when you look at it!)

Dr C!

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regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 4:15pm

even better!



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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 4:27pm

 

well said Doctor Clifford.

Many thanks to http://www.Vizarch.co.uk - www.Vizarch.co.uk  for their support this season.

 



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Keith...


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 5:00pm


Foiling 49ers, what next? Dare you guys in the 18s to put some on.......


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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 5:03pm


-------------
Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 5:33pm
MAN - im keepin ma 49er and foilin her!!! 

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 5:35pm
woooooo that looks like a well cool ride!!    putting a foil on a 18 would be insain!! wasnt  there was talk about putting foils on cherubs?

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International 14 1503


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 5:39pm
Yes, cherubs are testin it out - all come to castle cove this weekend (Weymouth) and hopefully there will be a foiling cherub! MUWAHAHA - watch out keith, we are comming!    Wales here we come!

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 5:50pm
I like the idea of hydrofoils on a 49er, however, Peter Greenhaulgh, the crew on the boat on the picture says the boat is almost uncrontrollable. The sail area on the boat makes her erratic enough but when she starts foiling, it's meant to be ten times worse. Mind you I reckon if we can get long enough wings on the foil, we may be on to a winner.......... Guess what my Uni project is going to be based on...... getting the boat totally airbourne (again).


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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 5:53pm
so you going to try it out? 

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 5:55pm
Probably..........

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:03pm
Funny you should say its your uni project  Ive been developing self leveling foils for a cherub as my uni project, but now currently trying to get hold of an old 49er hull so i dont mess up mine!

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:05pm
The boat we've got has been foiled with no damage at all, but I suppose its the way you design the system. I think Chris Turner(?) helped out Allister and Peter if that's any help.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:08pm
The foils / system wont pertrude the hull, unlike the moth - but its attatching them to the hull and strengthening the gantry!

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:18pm
bloody hell that looks unreal, but how come its doing wheelies? does it
have a t foil rudder?

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Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:23pm
Couldn't tell you, but the  Daggerboard looks a bit thin doesn't she? I'd be scared to put them on the rudder because the boat is not originally designed for hydro-foils and it wouldn't be any fun if you ripped the back off a 49er. Mr. Noble already increases my insurance by 50% if I claim.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:26pm
the worst bit about sailing is the cost and insurence companys rip us sailors off!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:30pm
I think that you may be better of with a B14 to try foiling on. The wings give you the leaverage and as you are hiking you are more locked in to the boat so should be able to survive the crashes better than standing on the side.

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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:30pm
I only claimed a new dagger-board last season, crew snapped it when he fell on to it when we were doing swimming practise. Cost insurance company 260 (odd) and our premium went up by 300 (DoH!)

How the Hell does that work out


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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:37pm
dont know how it works but they are always making loads of money!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:45pm
Saying that, our's always pays.... Had a new kite and rudder for a Laser2, mast and Centreboard for a 5000 and centreboard for a 49er in the last 10 years. Not bad really, but was mythed when they said the 49er daggerboard wouldn't increase our premium and half a year later we find out theres a 50% increase... If I'd known then, wouldn't have bothered calling them.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:47pm
yer little things like ruder blades ect arnt worth clamming cos it will cost you more in the future!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:53pm
400+ for a 49er foil seemed a valid claim at the time, but I think its only going to be masts and sails from now on to justify any hike in premiuim.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:59pm
think how much that new T foil will cost!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 7:04pm
We'll make it ourselves, so it should only cost about 20

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 7:10pm
yer but it will be made of card board and crisp packets!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 7:14pm
Now there's an idea

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 7:17pm

If you're "making a loss" out of the insurance, consider just having third party insurance instead. You can get third party for "Trapeze Boats" for 35 and "Hiking Boats" (including B14s and Moths!) for 20.

The biggest claim you're likely to make on full insurance is a broken mast at 1000. "Total Loss" (theft / car crash) of the boat could be a bit pricey though but is fairly easy to avoid if you're careful.



Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 7:59pm
Considering it but "what if I snap a mast or destroy a sail" keeps on popping into my head. I think this 50% charge goes if I don't claim this year, which would be nice because I'd be back down to my original premium.


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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by carshalton fc

the worst bit about sailing is the cost and insurence companys rip us sailors off!!

Trouble is plenty of sailors rip the insurance comanies off too. What goes around comes around.


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:13pm
I insure with Noble, they seem expensive but they do not quibble.  I think they are worth every penny.  I'm a carefull bloke but I've had a few breakages with the 4000 in the last 3 or 4 years and still I've had no complaint from Noble, although the premium has gone up.  Only to be expected.


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:13pm
Shame for the rest of us who claim genuinely because it affects all of our premiums doesn't it. Thought we were meant to be discussing Cherubs and 29ers, sorry to bog everyone down with insurance topics. Back to the point, if I had kids, I'd buy them a 29er when they were the right size but in the future I'd geniunely consider buying a Cherub for myself, amazing boats with so much you can do to them. The 29er and 29erX are great boats but the Cherub, although similar, is so different because it's a development class and I think thats where the boundary lies. If you want a straight out of the box boat, the 29er is ideal but the Cherub is a boat that will probably grow with you and with the development of the boats, the future seems unlimited for the Cherub. 

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: mpl720
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 10:05pm

You cannot expect to make some sort of 'profit' out of a boat policy surely !!  Get real - you pay say 200 more than 3rd party cover per year and then have to accept say a 100 excess anyway and if you claim you pay extra for 3-5 years afterwards - that is the reality.  Work out the likely full costs sometime - it's a no brainer for most of us.  All comprehensive cover does is spread the cost out over the long term but it's not a free service - why should it be !?.....  If you can justify it go 3rd party and accept the occasional 'hit' fairly - its a racing cost and dinghy racing is a relative bargain anyway.  If you want to have a go at someone start  with the 'sole supply manufacturers'  who seem to have a license to rip you and the insurers off in the first place ...

ISO 1170

 



Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 9:24am
Back on Cherubs and 29ers The Cherub has verry good burst speed and probably more importantly a better feeling of speed than any other boat I have sailed.
Stitching those bursts of speed  together to get round the course is difficult. As the boat is so short when you drop out of the groove you are punished harder than with a hull like the 29er's which has a smoother drag curve.

On a good day you can beat L4000 on the water on a bad day Lasers will beat you


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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 9:49am

In the same way RS800s and Int 14s co-exist, there will be people who prefer the SMOD and those that want a development class.

If the 29erX is a rip-off of the new Cherub rules, then presumably the 29er was a rip-off of the 97 rules Cherubs!  (As was the Laser 2 back in those days).  It is not really surprising since the Bethwaites were serious Cherub sailors in the '70s. 

Fundamentally, both boats are generally intended for lightweight crews who want high performance.  Therefore physics being what it is, with boats of the same width and crew weight and number of wires, they are going to be pretty similar.

At the end of the day though, the Cherub is about 30Kg lighter than a 29er so its ultimate speed should be higher.  But when it comes to handicaps, 2 1/2 feet extra on a 29er makes an enormous difference...

I still say that on a Cherub you do not HAVE to keep tweaking and modifying things.  It is just that the people who own them enjoy doing that...while 29er sailors just try and glue pro-grip in the dagger board cases, swop blocks, add shock cord to this that and the other etc etc etc



Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 11:25am
the main difference is that the 29er is a good two feet longer so should be a lot less twitchy than the cherub and potentially easier to sail.  A lot of kids may well get the X rig for the 29er as it is effctively a cheap upgrade for when they get bigger or the wind drops, much as people change rigs on lasers now.  If I didn't enjoy my B14 so much I might have wanted to get hold of an X-rig for my old 29er. 

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by Blobby


I still say that on a Cherub you do not HAVE to keep tweaking and modifying things.


Completely true - In 1980 Guy Lewington bough the World Champion winning Cherub Flat Stanley for 500 quid. Wasn't a lot even then. Over the next few years he won about everything worth winning (Bloody Mary, Stokes Bay Solent Pusuit, Grafham Grand prix, several Champs etc etc) with total fiddling being a new suit of sails , probably a couple of kites, one new mast when he broke the old one and possibly the occassional lick of varnish on the decks (though it sure never looked like it!)

I don't think X versus X arguments achieve a lot. Cherub and 9er evolution is all tied up together with a whole lot of other influences. Some folk sail SMODs for what are good reasons to them (and its only your own opinion of the reasons that count) other sail box rule boats because that suits them. Frankly as long as they are having fun sailing I don't care!

I think the 29er is a great boat, but I personally wouldn't want to own one. Should the 29erX in the adevrtised state turn into a shipping boat it will be interesting to see, but I really would be suprised if the hull shape was optimum for the new rig, but the marketing and production saving advantages of two rigs might tip the balance over the ideal hull.


Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 12:56pm

Completely agree Jim C.

Good conclusion to this topic......



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Keith...


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 12:59pm

Indeed Jim!

PS - you comming to Weymouth this wknd?

Andy



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by mpl720

You cannot expect to make some sort of 'profit' out of a boat policy surely !!  Get real - you pay say 200 more than 3rd party cover per year and then have to accept say a 100 excess anyway and if you claim you pay extra for 3-5 years afterwards - that is the reality.  Work out the likely full costs sometime - it's a no brainer for most of us.  All comprehensive cover does is spread the cost out over the long term but it's not a free service - why should it be !?.....  If you can justify it go 3rd party and accept the occasional 'hit' fairly - its a racing cost and dinghy racing is a relative bargain anyway.  If you want to have a go at someone start  with the 'sole supply manufacturers'  who seem to have a license to rip you and the insurers off in the first place ...

ISO 1170

 



I think talking about insurance and boat suppliers prices is opening a can of worms in reality. No much how much we discuss it, nothing will change. I'm thinking about shopping about on my policy next season because over 4 years I've put in one claim and had 50% surcharge added to my premium, which ammounts to more than they were paying out in the first place. You can't deny insurance premiums for High Performance boats are sky high, but I suppose it comes with the teritory and at the end of the day the companies have to stay in business. It does get scary when you are looking at a four figure insurance premium if you put in one claim within the next season though.


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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: Funtime
Date Posted: 09 Apr 05 at 12:13am

But andy what happened at the student nationals in weymouth in november chap tehe

I kinda remember how poor she was sailing upwind compared with the rest of the fleet but having said that i was in a firefly lol

Only kiddin, i had my first sail in a performance boat in andys cherub up 't' north in the cold of winter. It was great fun, but alot of sailors like to buy these of the shelf boats as you call em. Alot of people arnt into tweeking and modifying, its not just about going as fast as you can. Its about getting round a course.



Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 12 Apr 05 at 11:57am
i have sailed a cherub and a 29er, there is nothing you can do to a 29er except toally redesign it that would make it as good as a cherub.

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: lemeouttahere
Date Posted: 13 Apr 05 at 2:11pm
no offence to anyone but in my opinion the cherub does look kinda boxy whereas the 29er has a fantastic shape and only lacks sail so 29erx should be good fun


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 13 Apr 05 at 7:54pm

You obviously havent seen primal scream! (before its paint job!) cheurbs are boxy eh?



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-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: lemeouttahere
Date Posted: 13 Apr 05 at 11:44pm

prime example, its all edges and corners, nice if thats what you like but no flow

fantastic rig tho

 



Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 14 Apr 05 at 10:07am
I take it you don't like the look of I14's as well then?

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http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 14 Apr 05 at 10:49am

No flow, what?! - dose hard chines aid extra speed!

So you dont like cherubs, you dont like I14's, I take it you dont like 18footers, so u must also hate 12ft skiffs....................

Hang on - you hate EVERY development class! 



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-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 14 Apr 05 at 11:25am
dvelopment classes are really cool but they arnt for everyone!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 14 Apr 05 at 11:27am
they dont get as good reacing

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Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 14 Apr 05 at 11:50am
yer and they are more expensive!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 14 Apr 05 at 12:07pm

Originally posted by 5420

they dont get as good reacing

WHAT! you havent even sailed one before - done make assumptions! and as for the expense? Its cheaper to have a custom built, latest spec cherub than it is a 49er! and guess which is more fun? comming from someone who has raced em both!

But again, its all down to personal preference - im not slating the 29er continiously like some ppl in here are doin to the cherub - if you like your class then that is enough! we sail what we sail for our own reasons. Every boat has its equal good and bad points.



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-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 14 Apr 05 at 12:37pm
If the 49er was a development class, I don't think I would have went for one because there is always something else you have to do to the boat to keep it fast. We considered buying a 14, but the price of the boat and the development factor put us off a bit. Would love to move into a development class in the future though when we know that we could keep up with the pace of developments but for just now its not an option. The Cherub does seem a nice boat, and doesn't seem too expensive to keep up to date, just a little bit small for my preferances just now. I really love the look of the Primal Scream boat and it is really good to see the class develope in this way. I feel the boats like Primal Scream will appeal more than a 29erX for sailors that are of the same frame of mind as me and I'd consider sailing a Primal Scream Cherub in the future, whereas the 29erX doesn't really appeal to what I'd like to do in the future. Will be interesting to see the comparitive prices of the boats.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: Funtime
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 12:11am
The new primal scream is an awesome idea, its gonna help the cherub class loads, its gonna make the cherub more available, its got gorgeous clean lines and the rig looks impressive... Its true everyone has there own opinion and thats what makes sailing so great theres so much choice to choose from. Im saving for a boat now and im trying to choose between the 14 and 49er, its all about cost cos im a student and i cant afford to keep upgrading.... but what would perfomance saling be without boats like the cherub???

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I just want a boat


Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 1:52am
i know the feeling mate, i'm a student too. That's why i chose a cherub so that i could save on the high retail costs by making a lot of my parts from carbon myself. I've found that although that is possible in 14's, they all seem to look very proffesional as most parts are bought from mass producing manufacturers and people all have very similar configurations. I'd go for the 14 though, they just have more prestige and heritage than a 49er in my view....

If you want a very decent 49er at an affordable price send me a message and I can put you in contact with someone.


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http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN
Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 10:37am
The great thing about a 12 foot development class is
that it really isn't expensive.

Basically you can't do much with a 12 foot water line
so the hull shapes all go at a similar speed. This
applies to N12 as well as Cherubs.

Even radically different looking boats like Loco Perro
and Slug, have very similar waterline shapes.

Plus the materials are less because there's less
boat. Carbon mast are easy to make and fix ( see
mpeg video's on the cherub site or our DVD ). So are
center boards and rudders ( see above also).

And sails wear out in all classes.

My old boat was very competitve and she was built in
1989, the inlands Championship was won by a
similar aged boat last year. And this is basically
because the boats are very well made in the first
place and just don't go soggy.

So it is a common sailing myth that development
classes are expensive.

I think this comes about from classes like the i14
where alot of money exists because of the type of
sailor that sails them. ( I like i14's so please no irrate
14er's )

SMOD's can be very expensive to. When the
manufacture stops supporting the class and you
lose secondhand value and when they decide to
change the 'strict one design' boat you have bought
for you. So you must comply. Or when it is no longer
a trendy class to sail. There are many examples of
this.

So please everyone development classes aren't all
expensive, it is all down to how the rules are written
and the class culture.

Basically performance sailing isn't cheap however
you do it.







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http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: lemeouttahere
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 10:53am

very wise words

i seem to have offended a couple of ppl here so sorry an i have nothing against cherubs or other development classes, its them that keep our sport moving forward.

on the hull shape i guess u could call me old school coz i like flowing shape(like the americas cup yachts, they are a work of art)

by the way i know about chines, got plenty of them on my fireball



Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 11:51am
i think that you should re word to "sailing in general is expensive" !! Went to the chandlery the other day for a few bits and came out bankrupt!



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http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN
Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 12:52pm
espeshaly if you do not work

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Posted By: Funtime
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 3:36pm

especially bein a student anybody fancy donating a boat to me lol.... fireflys get a bit borin to sail at uni thats the trouble lol

 



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I just want a boat


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 3:42pm
at uni there should be a course on boat building and in the course you would have to test out loads of different boats!! and then build one!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: Funtime
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 6:40pm
Im doing marine tech but it dont seem to be having anything to do with marine at all at the min lol... Whats good there is a variety of boats for people, thats what makes sailing so cool variety. 

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I just want a boat


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 8:00pm

and when you make the boat you have to test it

 

i wonder if they would let you make a 18 foot skiff



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Posted By: GBR176671
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 9:38pm
doubt it

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swim when your winning


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 9:40pm
it would be grat thow

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Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 1:44pm
yer it would be well cool but i would prefer to make a cherub or something that you dont had to be super human to race it!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 7:12pm
may be a singal hander so you can sail it more mps or rs700

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Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 9:25pm
yer along the lines of them boats would be cool!!   to be honist tho i dont like sailing on my own cos you cant talk to anyone!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 9:29pm
yeah deefinatly, but more there is noone alse to blame.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/



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