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Asymetric Kite.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=567
Printed Date: 26 Nov 20 at 7:53am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Asymetric Kite.
Posted By: KnightMare
Subject: Asymetric Kite.
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 5:30pm

Ok im not sure if i put this in the right place, but its to do with dinghys so I thought it would be ok.

I am surently crewing an RS200, and am getting slightly confused with the kite. I can get it up and down and gybe ok, but when sailing allong i dont always know what to do with it. Like whether to let it out or not. As for years I have been used to a symetic kite, and the asym doesnt react the same.

Does anyone have any good hints of how to tell what I need to do with the kite.



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/



Replies:
Posted By: Mike278
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 5:40pm
with an asymetric, you should ease the sheet until the leading edge just starts to curl, and then sheet in slightly to stop it collapsing.

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Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 5:45pm

yeh that bit i can do.

but sometimes it colapses compleatly is it better to pull it in all the way and then let it out again or just to let it out till it fills again.

Also, when the wind blows up how does this affect the kite as it seems to do strange things on out kite, (that might just be the nut on the end of the sheet)



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Mike278
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 5:48pm
when it collapses pull it in untill it fills and then let it out again.

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Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.


Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 5:50pm
if the wind blows up you heve to be very careful with letting it in, cause if you pull too hard you could very easy capsize! if itīs collapsing completley your helm must react and luff a bit.


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 6:04pm

thnx, that last bit spot is very useful.



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: ianwat2212
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 6:38pm
With an Asymetric there is a lot of responsibility on the helm, all the crew has to do is keep it full, the helm is largely resonsible for balance by luffing/bearing away.

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Fireball RSA 14723
Simonis 35 "Scarlet Sun" SA 1500
Royal Cape Yacht Club


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 6:46pm
Lol good good, but how do i knwo when to give feedbcak to the helm that it is wrong or shud they b able to see just by looking at it.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Lucy Lee
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 7:30pm
KnightMare: as far as giving the helm feedback goes, mine says he can tell when I've taken my mind off the kite & have forgotten to trim it for a nanosecond because the steering becomes weird. Specifically when it is sheeted even slightly to far in the boat slows down and he gets lee helm which pushes him off the gunwhale if he's not in the toe straps. I'm not sure how obvious that would be in a slower boat or one where the helm is hiking not trapezing. Clearly when it is under sheeted it starts to collapse and the boat slows right down. If this happens and I have it fully sheeted I tell him I can't get it in any further so he knows it is time to bear away.  

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Fly Cherub!


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 7:42pm

yeh ok. my helm doesnt say anything.

Wow your boat sounds like a pedantic little thing.

One thing if a gust comes through and the boat speeds up, does this affect how i shoudl have the kite sheeted, if i kept it in the same place would it mean it is sheeted to far in?



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 7:58pm
you should be playing it all the time through every gust and lull- leting it out as much as you can wihtout it collapsing, and as it starts to curl and colapse you should sheet in, but make sure it's not over sheeted though through every gust and lull

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 8:02pm
yeah i try to do that as it is, just wondering if there is more that I can do, at the moment I seem to be keeping it filling by trial and error. Wondering if there are any good rules to stick to. Just I can tell you exactly how to keep a sym. one filling, but not so sure on an asym.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 8:11pm
ok, well if your playing it all the time and it's still not filling then you should try and get some communication going with your helm...i'm sure that will help!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 8:16pm
A key thing I find, especially when not fully powered up, is that you need to be talking to the helm constantly about what's happening with the sheet loads. You can feel changes of wind far sooner than the helm can. If the sheet goes light you need to point a bit, so I tend to call "pressure", "need pressure", if its starts pulling harder and we can ease down on the gusts then I call that "down" or "ease down" or whatever. All the noise in boats I'm in downwind comes from the crew,(ie me) constantly feeding back information on pressure, probably interspersed with shouts of flat, flatter...

Originally posted by KnightMare


One thing if a gust comes through and the boat speeds up, does this affect how i shoudl have the kite sheeted, if i kept it in the same place would it mean it is sheeted to far in?



Lots happens as the gust comes in. Probably you'll be bearing away on the gust, either to soak down or just to keep the boat flat, so you'll need to ease progressively as that comes in. If you don't need to go down then you may need to sheet in as the boat speeds up. Maybe it will be bit of both. Sitting here I think its quite rare for me to want my boat to stay pointing in exactly the same direction as the gusts come in and out. You're most likely to want to sheet in coming out of the gust as you need to head up and keep the pressure on.

To my way of thinking the key thing really for speed is not to oversheet. Oversheeting is death to speed, helms are very prone to oversheet the main in light conditions because the boat feels better without the lee helm, but its still slow! I reckon its far better to have the kite flap occasionally because you're erring on undersheeting than have it oversheeted. Feels safe, lots of pressure, lots of power... but no speed! IMHO its a really bad idea for the helm to shout or whatever at the crew if the kite flaps. Firstly they probably know already anyway, and secondly if you make a load of noise about it to a fairly new crew they'll tend to oversheet, and you'll wonder why you have no speed.


Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 8:16pm
donīt worry about your helm. in really every boat the helm feels when the assymetric is too tight or not. from experience i can say the steering gets very hard and the boat wants to luff when you have the asymetric too much sheeted in. and the helm will defenitley tell you then! then sailor girl is right. play with it and ease it not more untill you loose the pressure.


Posted By: Lucy Lee
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 8:26pm
As far as rules for triming the kite go , I think 'If in doubt, try letting it out' probably covers it. It is much better to quickly pull in a big armfull and stop it flogging that to sail around with it oversheeted all the time!

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Fly Cherub!


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 8:56pm
thnx everyone. I just need to wait to get on the water to try all this out. and I will talk to my helm about what he wasnts me to say etc.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 9:24pm

From a Laser4000 point of view its important not to oversheet it.  As soon as you do the boat develops lee-helm - which is very difficult to handle and slow.  So keep it on the brink of collapsing by letting it out until you see the luf curl then give it a quick tug and let it right back out again.  In this way you are keeping it as near to fully eased as is possible.  Its a bit like flying a kite!

The points made about communication are extremely important.  When trying to run deep only the crew knows how much pressure is on the sheet - he/she must tell the helm or he doesn't know to soak deep or head up.  So a continual commentry should be coming from the crew.  In the 4000 there are 2 ways that the kite can collapse from a sudden header: 1. when the wind heads, remedy bear away, 2. when you sail into a lull so that the apparent wind comes from in front, same remedy but it feels different because all heeling force goes.  In both cases the crew must move inboard, more so in case 2.



Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 9:35pm

Originally posted by redback

Its a bit like flying a kite!

never  Im just used to having 3 ways the kite can colapse the two you metioned but also you can put a sym. kite to far behind the jib and in this case its not the leading edge that colapses but the center of the kite, it can look like the same thing but you need to do the oposite (let it out) to get it filling again.



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 9:46pm
Absolutely,  by the way I think this is just the sort of discussion this forum is designed for - you almost apologised for it at the beginning but no need.  Sorry to be pedantic but asymmetric is spelt with 2 "m"s, but no worries.


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 10:07pm

yeah i was apologising incase it was in the wrong place. And thanks fro the spelling tip mines awful



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Yann
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 11:59am

One other thing is that you should look at where the kite collapses first, it is curls at the front then either you let it out too far or the helm is sailing too high. If it collapses first at the back or curls at the back and gets horribly twitchy, swinging round to windward and things then you helm is sailing too low. you should both talk about it when that happens.

 



Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 5:50pm
That was what I was looking for. Thank you very much.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 6:15pm
I just thought of another way the kite can collapse - its probaly more relevant to the 4000 than any other class due to the length of the pole.  In lightish winds if you bear away too quickly the sweep of the pole is to leeward and the kite is backwinded.  Naturally this doesn't happen in a decent breeze and it doesn't happen anymore to me since I've learnt that such a big heavy boat is best handled smoothly.  But I do use this effect to advantage when I gybe, I always wing wang the pole up to windward after the gybe since this scoops up a spinnaker full of air which gets the kite flying nicely out of the gybe.


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 6:19pm
Ok, cool that thought had never even crossed my mind. will have to bear that in mind.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: ioanlavery
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 7:28pm

A diagram I used to use when I was teaching .... might come in handy ....?



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aka YoYo


Posted By: pro wannabe
Date Posted: 24 Mar 05 at 8:41pm
mate aysemmis are fat assed jibs! trim like a jib sheets like a jib, etmittedly jibs dont have bowsprits attached to them on most boats but they do on int 14s!!!!!

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Your spinni aint as big as your mouth!


Posted By: ioanlavery
Date Posted: 24 Mar 05 at 8:48pm
I'll have to disagree with you on that ... asymmetric spinnakers are nothing like jibs. Hope I'm not the only one who thinks that !

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aka YoYo


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 25 Mar 05 at 10:42am
ioanlavery   i have to agree with you on that one, where are the simularities between a jib/asymmetric???

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: ioanlavery
Date Posted: 25 Mar 05 at 11:04am
sailor girl !   the closest i can think of is that is another sail that the crew trim

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aka YoYo


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 25 Mar 05 at 11:25am
hehehe!!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 25 Mar 05 at 7:11pm
I suppose a jib is supported by its luff, so it can't collapse.  Under sheet a gennaker and it collapses.


Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 03 Apr 05 at 1:21am

I seem to have the gist of sheetingthe kite now.

But I'm still not sure what to do with the main.

How far in should it be sheeted and does it change as it gets windier? What kicker tension should there be - release it at the windward mark or leave it? Do the singlehanders like MPS and 700 sailors gybe without sheeting out the main? If so how do they survive above a Force 2?

A simple rule of thumb like the excellent- 'If in doubt, try letting it out' posted earlier would be useful!



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 04 Apr 05 at 11:19am
Hopefully you have tell tales on your mainsail leech.  They should be on the brink of stalling if you are trying to get maximum power from your main.  If you are sailing a high performance skiff type boat you'll be surprised how far in you have to sheet the main.


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 04 Apr 05 at 4:02pm

tell tales on a kite are assential and have at least 3 sets of them!

when people compare kites to jibs it is because when they are up the jib becomes virtually useless so it takes over from a jib!

on the hurricane 5.9sx yesterday we had the kite up and the main was doing bugger all going down wind was weird on the helm!



Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 04 Apr 05 at 5:48pm
We had our symetrical kite up yesterday on the scorp and the main was just flapping in the middle of the boat while we were flat out planning

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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 04 Apr 05 at 6:02pm

On the MPS if it is breezy most ease the main for the gybe; but if your boat handling is good enough and you can keep the speed on you can leave it cleated almost on the middle.

Rick



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Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 04 Apr 05 at 9:00pm
yeah thank you all for the advice, had a blast in the 200 this weekend the boat hasnt gone that fast before im sure.  But will have to look at applying all the tactics to light wind, when they are needed that little bit more.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 04 Apr 05 at 10:23pm
Alright for some we had no wind!

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Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 05 Apr 05 at 12:32am
Yes when overpowered on the 4000 the main is just left to flog.  This assumes you are trying to get high.  Yesterday though we had a f5 and all the spinnaker legs were deep so it was just, get it up, get out on the wire and hang on.  The centreboard was wailing like a banshee, and I know we were going fast I saw a crew on a nearby raceing cruiser just stand still on the fordeck with his mouth open.  Mind you another 4000 lost their mast.



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