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Future Olympic Classes?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=565
Printed Date: 28 Mar 24 at 10:23pm
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Topic: Future Olympic Classes?
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Future Olympic Classes?
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 12:49am
(from Spice thread)
Originally posted by 5420

yer i think it is time to get a boat like a rs700 in the olinpiks


What you've got to remember about getting boats into the Olympics is that its going to be an International Class, and probably one that is sailed in a lot of countries.

Whatever you may think of them its for sure that the UK smods have a poor record of getting adopted in other countries. This is a list of the current International classes with which country I think they originated in and what decade (I could be wrong about some of these)

1990s
29ER AUS/UK
49ER AUS/USA/JPN

1980s
Laser 4.7 USA
LASER RADIAL USA

1970s
LASER II AUS/USA
TOPPER UK
LASER USA

1960s
CONTENDER AUS
420 France
470 France
EUROPE France
FLYING JUNIOR Holland
OK Scandinavia
FIREBALL UK
MIRROR UK
MOTH UK/AUS/NZ/USA

1950s
SUNFISH USA
505 UK/France
FLYING DUTCHMAN Holland
FINN Scandinavia
CADET UK
ENTERPRISE UK
LIGHTNING USA
VAURIEN France
OPTIMIST USA/Scandinavia

1940s
SNIPE USA   

1930s
14 UK


You can see that the only UK SMD to feature is the Topper, and its a mystery to me how that keeps its international status, it must be clinging to the countries/continents requirement by the skin of its teeth. All the recent classes have been USA and AUS, and the Bethwaites, with 3 International and also two recognised classes, are the kings of modern dinghy design. Its also well worth noting that the Bethwaitea have very strong USA connections, especially with Ian Bruce, the Laser designer of course - the Bruce/Bethwaite combination has an almost complete dominance of recent International classes!

So the smart money is that a new design Olympic singlehander would be a Bruce/Bethwaite concept, orginating in USA/Australia, and almost certainly not a product of the UK factories. Unless of course the times change!



Replies:
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 6:22pm
do not foget that a olympic claas has to be an international claas for 10 years befor it can be chosen dont ask my why but this is a stupid rule and you are going to say how did the 49er get in then that got in because they liked it so much they broke the rule but when you think about it this means that no RS boat can be in the olympic yet nor the musto skiff

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Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 6:24pm
but if they broke it once they might breake it again, though not likely.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by 5420

do not foget that a olympic claas has to be an international claas for 10 years befor it can be chosen


News to me... Where did you find that?


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 8:01pm
yeah, i'm not sure that's correct because the byte c2 was considered and that's new from last year...

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 20 Mar 05 at 9:21pm
Toppers are sailed by ex-pats in dubai (+various other nationalities there), and have a fleet in Japan.

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Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 11:32am

i read about an olimpik class haveing to be an international foir 10 years i can not remeber what it was in i think it was in dinghy sailing magazen but i think they are starting to inore the rules because they had to inore for the 49er because they liked it so much  



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Posted By: guytoon
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 3:25pm

I think that english builder will have a chance to get some olympic classes when they will try to sell their boats abroad.

Actually you have few chance to get a RS boat outside UK and poor esperance to buy a musto outside Europe.



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Cherub 2692 "NBS"


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by 5420

i read about an olimpik class haveing to be an
international foir 10 years i can not remeber what it was in i think it was
in dinghy sailing magazen but i think they are starting to inore the rules
because they had to inore for the 49er because they liked it so much  [/
P]



Not being a Olympic committee member i would only be guessing but I
am sure the reason the 49er got into the Sydney Olympics was more to
do with the Australians love of spectator based sailing (18's e.t.c) And it
being a very tele-visual boat. Oh and the designer was from Oz!


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Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 7:49pm
isnīt the rthing with the olympic classes also something like politics? the one who has the most influence in the sport gets their class in. i think itīs all based on profit. thatīs the way it seems to me. 


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 8:26pm
The olympic commity are people from all over the woujld it is not the people that are hosting it to decid what boats to use

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Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 8:29pm
yes i know, but what i meant was when the laser is in the one who sells laser earns more money. thatīs a bit like it seems to me after the out of the europe.


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 11:16pm

ISAF "bent the rules" for both the 49er and the Tornado sport so no reason why they coudn't do it again.

However, they have said that they will now only accept submissions from ISAF recognised classes - the 10 year comment above is incorrect.

Most of the new classes such as RS have had minimal international penetration despite some wild claims and as such can't attain ISAF status.

To get that you need fleets of 20 or more boats in 4 countries in the same continent or 3 fleets of 20 boats spread accross 2 continents.

If you have a look at the page below you will see that the Musto Skiff is very international in flavour and that this year the class will have enough boats spead around the globe to achieve ISAF international requirements (there are of course others but the number of boats is the key issue).

http://www.mustoskiff.com/sailors-database.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/sailors-database.htm

No reason why the Musto Skiff could not be submitted for the 2012 games; perhaps in the UK!!!

Rick



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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 21 Mar 05 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by guytoon

Actually you have few chance to get a RS boat outside UK and poor esperance to buy a musto outside Europe.

Musto Skiff dealer network is pretty wide ...

http://www.mustoskiff.com/contact-devoti.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/contact-devoti.htm

I know that France is one of the more conservative countries when it comes to adopoting new skiff classes, ISAF recognition will help the class in these contries.

Rick



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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Mar 05 at 12:36am
Originally posted by Guest#260



this year the class will have enough boats spead around the globe to achieve ISAF international requirements




Recognised status a way off yet according to my reading with just two countries with 20 boats. Good luck achieving it, but be careful - the Buzz and ISO got as far as recognised status and the classes immediately died off and asked for it to be removed as they no longer qualified!



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 22 Mar 05 at 8:49am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Guest#260



this year the class will have enough boats spead around the globe to achieve ISAF international requirements




Recognised status a way off yet according to my reading

Read again Jim .... a few more boats in Germany and Spain and there will be 4 countries with fleets over 20 boats, plus the USA dealer has just taken another 4.

10 years ago the rules for ISAF Recognition and International class status were differenet to now.

Now ISAF requires that the fleet numbers can be verified.

As for the ISO and Buzz I can't comment ...

 



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Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 22 Mar 05 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

ISAF "bent the rules" for both the 49er and the Tornado sport so no reason why they coudn't do it again.

Rules wern't bent for Tornado......  Class rules changed after pressure from ISAF and IOC to bring the Tornado up with the times or it will be dumped in favour of a new generation spinn cat.



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http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 22 Mar 05 at 12:57pm
yes but they had to bend the ruls to get the new tornado with the kit in so quik

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Mar 05 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by 5420

yes but they had to bend the ruls to get the new tornado with the kit in so quik


I wouldn't say so. Same class, just a rule change. Classes have rule changes all the time. The fact that this rule change was quite significant and practically forced on the class after ISAF threatened to use the Sailing Intructions to vary the class rules for the Olympics is neither here nor there. The selected catamaran remains the Tornado: nothing has changed. The rules were followed to the letter. *In theory* the Finn Class rules could be changed this November so that the boat bore a suprising resemblance to a Musto skiff or whatever and it would still be the Finn and still the Olympic Class for Beijing.


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 22 Mar 05 at 2:49pm
there will be no new boats for the olympic untill 2012 and they will be chosen after the 2008 olympics

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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 22 Mar 05 at 11:35pm

Originally posted by 5420

there will be no new boats for the olympic untill 2012 and they will be chosen after the 2008 olympics

Correct - lets hope ISAF select classes that represent the best in our sport and offer good and fair competition for all nations not just those with loads of dosh  AND excite the media.

Also that the classes are fun for the sailors who spend many hours on the water.

Rick



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Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 23 Mar 05 at 8:08am
what the need to remember is that the sailes will spend all of there time sailing theas boats so they need to pick the boats that the sailes want to sail not the class with the most boats

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Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 23 Mar 05 at 8:19am

Originally posted by 5420

what the need to remember is that the sailes will spend all of there time sailing theas boats so they need to pick the boats that the sailes want to sail not the class with the most boats

How does that work then - are you saying that classes with large numbers of boats are not popular??



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 23 Mar 05 at 10:17am

I think 5420 is trying to say is that sailors would rather spend their time sailing boats that are enjoyable to sail.

Most would agree that not all the popular classes are exciting to sail - they may offer great class racing but some of the most popular boats are dull to sail.

Any class selected for Olympic inclusion is going to have great racing so why not couple that with and exciting class.

As someone who spent hours and hours 2 boat tuning in 470's in the late 80's trying to prove a better centerboard I know from experience. What a waste of time - I'd have rather been blasting around in a fixed design trying to improve my boat handling ind racing skills.

Why waste money and time on equipment testing programmes - that just turns the Olympics into a test of funding ...

On top of that you need classes that look sexy that will interest the public - just look at what the 49er has done ...

Rick



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Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 23 Mar 05 at 11:35am
yes you got it in one when a class becomes an olimpik class all the olimpik sailors go and sail them so then they get biger fleat anyway so wever it is populer dose not mater

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Posted By: pro wannabe
Date Posted: 24 Mar 05 at 8:28pm
i reckon a laser 2 would be a good olympic class! bethwait and laser, speed interesting but not exactly what the 470 sailors of today like!LOL

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Your spinni aint as big as your mouth!


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 24 Mar 05 at 9:40pm
you don't want laser 2 you rs700 musto skiff ext we want to move on not go bakwords

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Posted By: pro wannabe
Date Posted: 30 Mar 05 at 9:24pm
5420 chill out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Angry

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Your spinni aint as big as your mouth!


Posted By: GBR176671
Date Posted: 30 Mar 05 at 9:47pm
I agree the laser 2 would be a rubbish boat to put in the Olympics the 470is the right boat for now.

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swim when your winning


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 30 Mar 05 at 10:13pm
yes ben but don't go on about that you think the laser is the best boat in the world it is time to move on

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Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 04 Apr 05 at 6:13pm
hay what about a lady cat may be the hoby 16

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Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 05 Apr 05 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

As someone who spent hours and hours 2 boat tuning in 470's in the late 80's trying to prove a better centerboard I know from experience. What a waste of time - I'd have rather been blasting around in a fixed design trying to improve my boat handling ind racing skills.

Why waste money and time on equipment testing programmes - that just turns the Olympics into a test of funding ...

Why indeed!

Maybe if you'd chosen to work on your boat-handling and racing skills in the 470, you might have got somewhere. Are you trying to suggest that Nick and Joe won their silvers because they had the second-best funded equipment development programme?

Let me tell you, they won their silvers because they were the second best sailors that week. They were the second best sailors because they have dedicated so many years to practising their sailing skills. The Americans just sailed a better regatta that week.

There is virtually no significant equipment development taking place in the 470 class these days. Any development that is taking place is not very expensive; incremental tweeks to sail shapes etc. It is as one-design as any other class, in that any differences in equipment are absolutely swamped by differences in sailing skill.

To suggest that it is an arms race is a slur on the class and on the sailors who are doing well in the class at the moment.

 



Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 05 Apr 05 at 8:16pm
yes but you have to have a bit of develoment to keep the class at the top of what is avalble to sail but also you dont want an arms race that makes it unfaier it is a fin line

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Posted By: Dead Air
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 5:52am

How about the B14?

ISAF registered international class, make it the open boat, as 150kg give or take seems the right amount of crew weight so girls and boys can compete fairly.

Then make the 49er the mens double hander, no offence but I have't seen many female crews take to the water in it!



Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 7:51am

i have seen a female crew in a 49er

for the b14 just mack it a female class because all the men will sail the 49er any way and that all so means that then you will have a lady skiff which is somehting we do not have at the moment



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Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 1:22pm
For the mixed class what about having a double hander where you have to have a mixed crew? Its what they do in other sports e.g. squash

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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 5:05pm

Yeah actualy that does sound like a good idea.



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 5:07pm
yer and that would bring some good entertainment into the sport!!  but what boat would they use?

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International 14 1503


Posted By: elmo
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 6:25pm

"How about the B14?

ISAF registered international class, make it the open boat, as 150kg give or take seems the right amount of crew weight so girls and boys can compete fairly."

Erm how many girls would you like to fit in this boat?

As someone fully grown at 55kg, it annoys me that there is very little space in olympic boats for me, who i consider to be a fairly average sized female.  With the laser radial as the new single hander, you have to be quite a big girl to get anywhere!  Not that I am ever capable of getting to the olympics, but I feel that it shoudl be open to me if I actually had any talent.

Make a boat in the olympics for little people, that 29er X if it ever gets anywhere might be the right sort of thing.



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 6:54pm

This comment may not be very PC but why do you think the womens beach volley ball is on the TV a lot but there is very little coverage of womens shot putting?

We need boats that normal sized women can sail and look glam in for the media.

Probably get shot down in flames for this post but it's reality ...

Rick



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Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 6:57pm

grrrrr.....

lol no thats true i supose, if we can start with that at least its sailing, just dont you hate people who can still look glam after sailing.



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 7:58pm

I don't dislike myself perticularly?!- only joking i look pretty muh the same, but i wouldn't call it glam by any stretch of the imagination!

"3 blondes in a boat" etc. yup it grabs the media more.



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Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 8:01pm

he he he he !



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 8:02pm
what about 3 blondes in bakinis!!  but maybe not shurlely robertson tho!!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 8:04pm
ok imgona slowly back away from this converstion. (good luck keeping this convo on track.)

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 8:09pm
how about we get all the fit girls of the forum put them in bakinis and then put them in a boat together!!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 9:33pm
it's bikinis!!! good luck on that idea!!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 06 Apr 05 at 9:43pm

thongs, very tiny ones.(for the fit birds that is).



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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:04am

It was a serious point - sort of ....

The boats need to be suitable for the average women aged perhaps 20 -30.

That means 50 - 60kgs I'd expect; also you need to take into account the weights of Asia women which probably lowers the average weight.

So the Radial is probably too big for the average women ...

Rick



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Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:10am

back to wate we where talking about

 



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Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 4:37pm
good idea! i think rick said is right. i think iīm the avarage in germany and iīm only weighing 54kg. for a radial itīs not enough. and with the radial you canīt pic the best suitable mast for you now. big disadvantage!


Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 6:43pm
So a mini MPS is what is needed. 

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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:32pm

Mini  MPS is possible, just slightly smaller sails on the current boat would make a great womens class. The boat is very light so would be fine.

Rick



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Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:36pm
but what a really pitty about the laser is that you canīt trimm as much as in the europe. on the other hand then itīs more about tactical sailing not about boat handling.


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:49pm
Means its an open playing field for everyone and hopefully the best sailor reaches the top and not the person who can tweak the boat best. However, isn't that part of being a good sailor, understanding your boat. I like the move to the Radial because it means more people can have a chance because the Europe was seen to be an expensive boat to campaign where as the Radial is fairly cheap in comparrision.

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Helensburgh S.C
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Posted By: Spot192
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 9:54pm
thatīs true. havenīt looked at it from this point of view. but i donīt like those one design classes very much especially the laser. i like the construction and the developing!


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 05 at 10:19pm
So do I but in general terms I feel that Olympic boat which is accessable to most is better than one that only a minority in comparision sail. Saying that, I'm sounding hypocrytical when I sail a 49er (DoH) 

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Mini  MPS is possible, just slightly smaller sails on the current boat would make a great womens class. The boat is very light so would be fine.

Rick

Is this something that MPS are going to consider?  It would certainly fill a gap in the market for a high performance single hander for women and smaller guys. 

 



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Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 5:20pm
at there nashonals i sawer a lode of girls sailing them they look more of a tecknek boat than a row power boat

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Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 08 Apr 05 at 5:46pm

Originally posted by bigwave dave

Is this something that MPS are going to consider?  It would certainly fill a gap in the market for a high performance single hander for women and smaller guys. 

It certainly would and I'd be interested but will it happen soon or even at all? Can anyone from the class let us know if it's even being considered? In the meantime what about the Vortex - now with the asymmetric so pretty quick offwind but manageable and stable for most lighter men. ladies and/or non 'superman'  types



Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 3:07pm
the mps could have a storm sail that you can use when it gets windy i know there are some classis that do this alredy but i don;t think the mps dose

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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 15 Apr 05 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by Hector

Originally posted by bigwave dave

Is this something that MPS are going to consider?  It would certainly fill a gap in the market for a high performance single hander for women and smaller guys. 

It certainly would and I'd be interested but will it happen soon or even at all? Can anyone from the class let us know if it's even being considered? In the meantime what about the Vortex - now with the asymmetric so pretty quick offwind but manageable and stable for most lighter men. ladies and/or non 'superman'  types

If ISAF asked the class to develop a smaller sailed version for women then I am sure it's somthing that could be done but at present the number of women looking for that type of boat is pretty small and without the backing of an ISAF project coudn't really be justified by the market.

BTW this is my personal opinion and not that of the class association or the builder.

The boat as it stands has a wide competitive weight range and Kit Stenhouse does pretty well with the standard set up usually beating most of the men!!!

Rick

 



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Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 7:47am

the reason that not many people buy boats like the mps or rs700 is they are so exppensive i know a good 2HAND rs700 is about Ģ5000 which is a lot foe teangers and studants and theas are the  kind of people that would buy them i am 15th i could sail one and i would love to but i can not afford one so we are stuck in laser atleast we have the 29er which is cheap



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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 8:30am

 [/QUOTE]

If ISAF asked the class to develop a smaller sailed version for women then I am sure it's somthing that could be done but at present the number of women looking for that type of boat is pretty small and without the backing of an ISAF project coudn't really be justified by the market.[/QUOTE]

I disagree I do think there could be a market for a trapeze single hander for women, juniors or lighter men. The only way to find out if there is a real market is for someone to launch and market such a class.



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 8:57am

most small people and women think that boats like the mps are to hard because the sheat lodas are to hight ect but they als think that they have the skill to sail them people need to jump in at the deep end and get one they arnt as hard as people think and people can alwase learn

but that dose not chang that they are to much money



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Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 9:42am

But it is a fact of life that we can't have everything we want.  I would like a newer boat.  I used to have one but had to sell it to pay the tax man.  I would like a new van, but can't afford it, my wife wants a new kitchen (she will probably get that),

High quality goods, whatever they are, cost.  The MPS is a high quality item, as is a new Devoti Finn and many other dinghys.  They are new about the same cost as a small family car.

You mention too much money, so what do you think they should cost?

Sailing is not the cheapest of sports, but it is a lot cheaper than say flying or racing cars.

Cost is a relative thing.  Sometimes you just have to be happy with your lot. At the risk of comming over all parental, when you have finished your studies and earning an income your views may change.  But remember that it is not only teenagers and students who cannot afford everything they want.  The more money you have the bigger the toys get.



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Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 4:03pm
I'd second that and also like to mention that there is a lot to learn in sailing which can only be learnt in slower boats.  If you jump in at the deep end you'll probably trash the lot and you certainly won't be any good at racing.


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 16 Apr 05 at 7:09pm
but thats the point they cost the price  of a small failay car and you need a car but you do not need a boat to get to work in the morning so why shood they cost as much they are a hobby not an a adsenchal unless you are absested like me with sailing

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Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 17 Apr 05 at 7:51am

So  how much do you think they should cost?  How do you suggest suggest building cheaper boats?  Would you accept inferior quality boats because they are cheaper?

I too am obsessed with sailing by the way.



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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Apr 05 at 9:57pm

Boats cost money; good boats hold money so it's a cash flow issue really.

I brought my first MPS for Ģ5000; sold it 18 months later for Ģ4900. Then brough a new one.

The key is finding a quality product that will last and has strong class interest

Too many new boats have followed a boom & bust cycle ... we all know which one they are ...

Rick



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Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 17 Apr 05 at 9:59pm
yer i know what you mean cos all the rs range hold there value very well!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 18 Apr 05 at 11:33am
yer how much dose it cost to mack the boats it can  not be more than 1000 but we have to pay 5000 that means they can make about 4000 profit on evary boat they sell

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Posted By: NeilP
Date Posted: 18 Apr 05 at 3:35pm

Let's live in the real world here, 5420. Yes, if you had the moulds and the skill, you could build a boat, and it would probably cost you around 1K-2K by the time you'd bought a rig, sails etc. BUT if you had to pay your wages while you did it, cost of workshop space, tax, rates etc etc, do you really think you'd have change from Ģ5,000?? Not to mention the money the likes of Laser, Topper RS pour into marketing, setting up race series, finance deals, supporting used values with trade-in deals and all the other stuff. If you think you could wear all that and still produce a good quality product for Ģ5k, I suggest you set up as a boatbuilder immediately!! Good boats cost money. A new FD is an expensive bit of kit, but it will give you at least 15 years of potentially Worlds-winning performance. Enquiries were made earlier this year about an FD built from glass and Polyester instead of the current expensive materials, and it would have made around Ģ400 difference to the price! The vast majority of the cost of a boat is in the skilled labour to build the thing.

If you want a new boat, you just have to live with the facts. Better than trying to live on what the average boatbuilder makes in profit!!!

Neil



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 18 Apr 05 at 3:41pm
yer but if company's didnt make loads of profit they wounld do the job!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: NeilP
Date Posted: 18 Apr 05 at 3:51pm
So what's wrong with making a living? If there weren't companies and businesses out there building boats, what would you sail? I'll say it again: If you think you could build a good quality boat for less than Ģ2000 on the water, go to it! If these businesses don't make money, they'll all go bust, and then you'll all whinge that you can't get spares for your SMOD.


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 18 Apr 05 at 4:01pm
i wasnt saying that there was anything wrong with erning a living i was just saying that the boat builders can charge what ever they want for the boats they build ect.

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International 14 1503


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 18 Apr 05 at 4:17pm

Have to agree with Neil, boat-builders have to make a reasonable living, and after all, we are getting quality products. If your not happy with new boat prices, buy second-hand, nothing in this world comes for free. There are cheap classes in all aspects of sailing. The running and development of Marine based companies cost a fair bit of money, and what would you prefer, having to pay alittle extra for a well engineered boat, or getting something on the cheap which is primative or gives up after one season.

Anyway back to the point, - The Musto Performance Skiff should be selected as the next Olympic class. Its a well designed boat, good international circuit, strong UK fleets, and has no compramises built into it, which could be said about some of her rivals....



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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 18 Apr 05 at 9:45pm
i dont think the rs700 has any compramises built in to it

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Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 18 Apr 05 at 10:46pm

if boat companys make so much how come they keep going bust??

ie topper and laser



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lifes to short to sail slow boats!

RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 9:17am
There are plenty of classes where you are allowed to home build, if you want to spend less, but, as was said earlier, don't even begin to work out what it has cost in time. Most of the problems with build quality on SMODS comes from the fact that they are cutting down on cost to compete with other SMODS, so they cannot charge what they feel like. They also have to take into account the expense of failed projects.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 9:21am

None of the above seems to hold true for spares...by then you have the boat, so they will rip you off like there is no tomorrow!

Apart from Comet, who actually appear to want to support their customers...

And no, I don't work for them!



Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 10:36am

What about the (3 person) 79er as an Olympic class, certainly faster than the Yngling!!!

 

 

Bethwaite Sports Boat



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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 10:40am

Seems there are a huge range of people posting on this forum from naive kids to experienced adults - that is why the opinions vary so much.

 

Most people work in the marine industry for the love of the sport and if they can scrape a living along the way then that is fine.

 

Most boat builders are considerably less wealthy than their customers.

 

Anyone who thinks they can build a high performance boat for Ģ1000 is showing themselves to be totally clueless about what is involved and the costs of running a business.

 

Rick

 

PS I do agree that some things are out of line with the cost. e.g. a Laser sail.



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Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 12:02pm

yeah but if people formulate their opinions from one manufacturer (no names mentioned) then they think that that applies to all manufacturers. There are some companies that do hike up the prices but that doesnt mean that all do ( I think this is where everyone seems to have come unstuck)

And yeah with the spares they kinda of have a captive audience (either pay this much or get a whole new boat) 
Sounds liek every one aught to get a Comet as according to rupert they actualy respec the people that give them money, [oh and then you could come to Fishers Green Comet open on sat 23rd april]



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 12:12pm
the problem is there  is no compatishon so they can charge what they like if someone else was making laser as well the price would have to come down to be competive with the othe copaney

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Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 12:36pm

yer but dont laser have a copyright thing?



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International 14 1503


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 12:41pm
probably. Thats the point 5420 they are SMODs so they ONLY HAVE ONE manufacturer.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Offshoretiger
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 12:58pm

Thank you KnightMare



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...yesterday I couldnt spell enginner...now I are one!......


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by KnightMare

There are some companies that do hike up the prices but that doesnt mean that all do




Its hard to think of any industry where the price of spares doesn't seem vastly out of proportion with that of the complete new product. Try spares prices on cars and motorcycles for instance. Part of it is because it is a lot more expensive to ship and stock a whole vehicles worth of spares than just the whole vehicle (an order takes just as long to write and process for a Ģ10 part as a Ģ10,000 pound one) but part of it is simply that the customers look at the purchase price (which is easy to compare) rather than cost of ownership over the lifespan (which is very difficult to estimate anyway).

Its not really ripping you off, its more that they use spares prices to subsidise new boat prices. Think of it as being like Hire purchase!


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 1:39pm

yeah but what I meant was just there are bound to be companies that add that little bit extra to the price, But just because one does doesnt mean they all do. and you cant assume that all the companies do the same thing.

Hire purchase thats an intersting way to look at it. But if people keep moaning about the price of SMODs then get a different class where you can shoparound for the cheapest fittings etc. (or make them yourself)



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 3:01pm
they just do not need to take advantege of the situashon

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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 10:00pm

5420 - I thought my English was bad but you are the master ...



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Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 19 Apr 05 at 10:21pm
yeah its soo good to find someone who is worse than me, that has to be saying something. No offence

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Mike278
Date Posted: 20 Apr 05 at 12:49am
I think that my spelling is better than 5420, even after 5 pints, but my spelling is normally really bad anyway

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Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.


Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 20 Apr 05 at 7:51am

Hey, it's easy to mock, but maybe poor 5420 is severely dyslexic and makes great efforts to contribute to a written forum. I find his use of English highly creative - quite phonetic at times!   

As long as his posts make sense, it's OK. And if they don't make sense, a well-placed Eeehhh???? will get you an explanation.



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http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 20 Apr 05 at 7:55am

well said

leave me alown i can do nothing about it



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Posted By: Mike278
Date Posted: 20 Apr 05 at 8:48am
sorry

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Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 20 Apr 05 at 11:32am
dont worey you know now

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Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 20 Apr 05 at 2:24pm
nothing wrong with being dyslexic

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: nixy30633
Date Posted: 20 Apr 05 at 3:23pm
awww dont cry....be happy

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nikki
@ fishers green s.c



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