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Byte CII and weather helm

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy Yarns...
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5541
Printed Date: 24 Jan 22 at 4:10am
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Topic: Byte CII and weather helm
Posted By: zailor
Subject: Byte CII and weather helm
Date Posted: 24 May 09 at 4:08pm

My brothers CII has a very heavy help and I found it ver heavy the other day in a f5.

Okay fair enough, stong winds where it's hard to keep the boat flat yes ther will be weather helm but this happens in light winds too

 

YES the boat is flat bus still seems to be heavy as iff its poped up a little but its right down as far as it goes.

 

Is the rudder just heavy or is something wrong?




Replies:
Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 24 May 09 at 5:37pm
Fit the rudder and insert daggerboard

Turn boat over and check to see it they are aligned, this may be the issue.


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Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 24 May 09 at 6:46pm

Will do.
Prahaps I should have checked that already



Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 May 09 at 6:29pm
Probably sailing with too much kicker. It is a shame you missed the class training at the weekend. We spent lots of timing looking at rig set up!

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 25 May 09 at 7:20pm

I took it out today in about 5-6 Knots maybe

 

Wouldnt plane but definatley shifting.
No cunningham conditions and the helm did feel lighter.

I think it pop's up a little because I find the cleat doesnt hold very well.

On most boats I have sailed hetting the rudder downhaul out of the cleat is a nightmare but this one opos out quite happy.

At the time of the heavy helm it was a F5 running with big waves so no suprise but at times I hat to resort to the old school frying pan grip to rest my arms

 

also reading up on the class rules I see your now alowed two traveler carrs (did i spell that right).
Is that better that the solo carr?
If no how do I put a new one on?

I think i'm starting to like the CII now.....So much for the Europe

 

Looks likr my brother's lost his boat

 

Are there any other training events?



Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 25 May 09 at 8:33pm
Like the lazy, you have got to get the rudder all the
way down and keep it there. I have a wing bolt and push
the rudder down by hand and tighten the nut. Don't
forget to loosen before trying to come ashore. And like
a laser sail it flat, no really flat....no seriously
flatter

ps. Where are you i may be able to have a look if your
in the home counties or the North East if the above
doesn't solve it. (or i'll just ask Jon)

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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 May 09 at 9:19pm
There are very few (if any?) boats that plane in 5/6 knots!

For the rudder buy a new cleat and some stretchy rope and put in a purchase system.

I haven't used the new traveller but I am sure it makes it much easier for sailing.

On another point you need a consistent angle of heel for a Laser which is just off flat (to hold the centreboard securely in it's casing so it doesn't wobble about too much.


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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 25 May 09 at 10:26pm

The Center board has a good snug fit.

 

Just a question why streachy rope and not non streach?
Would I use a layed rope or the usuall Excel pro or whater its called?



Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 25 May 09 at 10:54pm
Centreboards do not have a nice snug fit in Lasers and wobble about if the level of heel is not constant.

If you have non-stretch rope and it slips a couple of mm then the rudder raises a corresponding amount.

If the rope is stretchy and pulled really tight then the rudder is held really tight and if it slips very slightly the rudder is still held really tight.

By using a 3:1 purchase system if the rope slips for example 3mm then in the stock there is only 1mm slipage.

You would not want to use Excel pro as this is a low stretch rope.


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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 26 May 09 at 10:30am

yes this is true for all dinghys with lifting rudders, I dont understand why laser stock a dyneema  or vectran rudder downhaul with the XD range!? I now use my old outhaul control line (which is stretchy!!!) and also stretchy lines hold in cleats better.  In the laser most tillers require this line to be tied rather than cleated, this makes the stretchy rope even more important because its even harder to keep it tight especially when launching into a big sea at stokes bay!

The 700 i bought also had low stretch rope for this and it wouldnt cleat despite the cleat being in good condition, this type of rope goes hard under tension so the cleat finds it hard to dig in, so it slips more.



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Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 26 May 09 at 3:22pm

Originally posted by Jon Emmett

On another point you need a consistent angle of heel for a Laser which is just off flat (to hold the centreboard securely in it's casing so it doesn't wobble about too much.

As ever I stand corrected



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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!


Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 26 May 09 at 5:43pm

Well you learn something useful everyday.

 

Thankeeee



Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 27 May 09 at 10:37am

Originally posted by Jon Emmett

If you have non-stretch rope and it slips a couple of mm then the rudder raises a corresponding amount.

If the rope is stretchy and pulled really tight then the rudder is held really tight and if it slips very slightly the rudder is still held really tight.

By that logic, shouldn't we all be using stretchy main halyards? Or is the trick to use the stretchy stuff only on the 3:1 adjuster and non-stretch on the rest (majority)



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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 27 May 09 at 11:48am
Haylards are usually 1:1 so you do not want any stretch in the rope. When you put on the cunningham you add huge amounts of loads to the Halyard which would pull the sail down the mast (if it stretch 5mm it would come down 5mm).

The length of a typical halyard (which goes from the top to the bottom of the mast) is also much greater than that of a rudder downhaul. So an approx 1% strech in a Halyard may be 5mm where a 1% strech in a rudder downhaul may well be less than 1mm.  

The loads on the rudder are relatively small and with low stretch rope it can be hard to get it to sit fully in the teeth of the cleat or other jammer (it may will slip 1 or 2 mm) which is far less than 1/3 mm (1mm stretch taking into account 3 to 1 sytem) due to stretch.Remembering when you pull a rope very tight (low or high stretch) it sits in the cleat better.


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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 27 May 09 at 12:46pm
I like to think of it as a little shock absorber in case of grounding too.

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 27 May 09 at 1:29pm

with your halyard you dont pull it hard up against the top of the mast, it slipping down 2mm because of the cleat wont slow you down, with the rudder though you pull it down so it is resting tight against whatever is stopping it going down further...to keep it close you need to be able to pull the rope that 2mm further using the stretch so that when it cleats and falls back that 2mm it is held by the unstretched rope in the same place.  To make up for this with your halyard you should just pull it up slightly higher to allow for the slippage in the cleat.

 



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Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 28 May 09 at 10:04pm

Originally posted by Jon Emmett



For the rudder buy a new cleat and some stretchy rope and put in a purchase system.


Can you recomend a rope make/model/type?



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 May 09 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by Jon Emmett

On another point you need a consistent angle of heel for a Laser which is just off flat (to hold the centreboard securely in it's casing so it doesn't wobble about too much.

Could you explain how that works please? If the water is flat then surely the board will be held against the casing by the side load (unless you are on an absolutely dead run, which isn't fast) and if you are not in flat water but being joggled about by waves why should a bit of heel help?


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 May 09 at 8:58am
I would go to Rooster for rope and the cleat.

Regards the Laser Centreboard if the boat is dead flat there is a chance that in the advent of header or lull the boat will come on top of you then when the boat goes to leeward or back flat again the board will wobble in the casing losing flow.

By having a (very small amount of leeward heel) which to most people seems like the boat is flat (and from a coaching perspective we are usually saying get the boat flat - just like we say hike straight legged <but really mean just off straight>) we ensure the board is held against the casing (the bottom of the board on the windward side and the top on the leeward) at all times.


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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 29 May 09 at 9:13am

Jim is right re: the sideforce keeping the dagger in position in the laser. It usually comes up when going in for a tack, or going in to adjust something, usually when slamming on a wave. Keep on buying those crappy pieces of rubber for a fiver.

Const leeward heel is important because it means that the rudder and dagger loading is (more) constant. Less experienced sailors will often, through lack of steering / sheeting / kinetics have their boats cyclicly heeling hard, then on top of them. This feeling of the boat "staggering around" upwind means that there is alternatively big weather and lee helm, both of which are slow, to reactively correct the situation. A really quick sailor will be using his/her weight and steering fairly aggresively upwind in breeze to keep the constant heel

The laser likes about 5 deg leeward heel upwind. This is beacuse it is a shallow and flat bottomed boat, limited in righting moment, so the small heel angle significantly shifts the centre of bouyancy to leeward, and thus increases the righting arm. This gain is enough to mitigate some of the negative effects of too much heel, such as weather helm. To a point...

Most sailors think they're flat when they're at 5 or 10 deg though.



Posted By: zailor
Date Posted: 29 May 09 at 5:18pm
Does this include the CII being laser like in shape?


Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 29 May 09 at 7:16pm

The board is very tight in the white formula Bytes, not sure about the Ovi or Nautivala ones.  But there is no slop in my board so I've never really thought about it I just try to sail flat.  I've tried to achieve the windward heel techniques (as suggested by Mr. Rooster) when looking for height but not sure I've ever made it work!  Jon?

ps.  just got round to getting the latest Y&Y...nice rug!!



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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 May 09 at 7:32pm
Yep yep you should sail the Byte dead flat, it is just the Laser which sails best with a SMALL amount of heel.

Windward heel can work well in certain conditions and is a good tool to have in the tool box.


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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 May 09 at 9:04am
Originally posted by tack'ho

The board is very tight in the white formula Bytes, not sure about the Ovi or Nautivala ones. 

I have a friend with an Ovi Byte. The board it very very tight because of the hairy gasket they put round the top and bottom of the case. After judicious use of a stanley knife to shave it down a bit the boat is now sailable!



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74



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