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Sails not full

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5504
Printed Date: 14 Aug 20 at 3:17am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Sails not full
Posted By: Adam MR 1137
Subject: Sails not full
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 2:30pm

Hi all a quick query from a situation that arose at the weekend,

I was sailing along the start line, about a boat length under the line, on starboard with my sail almost empty so I was sailing slowly. Aiming to get to the port end of the line at about 10s to go tack and then start on a port tack flyer (worked by the way, got to the top mark first ).

A boat on port crossed in front of me forcing me to point up and then back down around his transom. I called starboard on him, but he said I had no rights because my sails were not full. Is that correct? I was moving, just very slowly with my sail very loosely sheeted.

What would have happened if I was stationary, do I have right of way over port tack boats?

Thanks for any help



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Merlin rocket 1137
OK 2049
Can be seen at http://www.wellandyachtclub.co.uk/ - WYC



Replies:
Posted By: ChickenTack
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 2:42pm
Adam

Sounds like you were in the right, certainly there is no obligation for you to have your sails full you could have been stationary full speed accellerating or even drifting backwards (provided none of your sails were backed). I am however a little confused about your avoiding action however.

"forcing me to point up and then back down around his transom"

could you elaborate

thanks
Will


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Regards,

Will

Crews union: beause its hard to be humble when you know you're so great!


Posted By: Adam MR 1137
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 2:54pm

He was sailing along the line, to windward of me, and then he bore away in front of me, which without me pointing up momentarily could have lead to a collision.

Not sure if we would have made contact, and that is mainly why I didn't protest, just wanting to understand when i have rights better.



-------------
Merlin rocket 1137
OK 2049
Can be seen at http://www.wellandyachtclub.co.uk/ - WYC


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 4:59pm

Starboard tack constant course and speed (albeit slow): all boats on port should keep clear rule 12 and all boats to windward and overlapped should keep clear rule 11.  By avoiding the port boat you did the correct thing rule 14 (avoiding contact), could the port boat keep clear? if so I would expect you to win a protest.



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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: Adam MR 1137
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 7:12pm

Thanks for the clarification on this weekends incident. glad to know I would have won a protest, as it happens I got a good start despite that.

Just out of interest, would I have rights over a port tack boat if I was on starboard and stationary?



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Merlin rocket 1137
OK 2049
Can be seen at http://www.wellandyachtclub.co.uk/ - WYC


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Adam MR 1137

Just out of interest, would I have rights over a port tack boat if I was on starboard and stationary?

Reckon so. The only posible exception I know of is
21.3 A boat moving astern by backing a sail shall keep clear of one that is not.


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 7:55pm

You have rights over port even if going astern as long as you didn't achieve sternway by backing a sail.  You can also back a sail to stop and still require a port boat to keep clear as long as they have the opportunity and you don't start moving astern.

Worth getting a good rules explanation book like Elvstrom,



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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 8:40pm
Once again, in order to fully understand a rule it is important to read the definitions in your rule book.

"A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side." Nothing in the definition about how the sails are trimmed, indeed a boat with no sails hoisted would still be on starboard or port tack!

Rule 10 says "when boats are on opposite tacks, a port-tack boat shall keep clear of a starboard-tack boat." This applies whether the boat is moving, stationary, or even moving astern (unless she is moving astern by backing a sail).

You were not able to sail your course with no need to take avoiding action - so port-tack boat did not keep clear (see definition). Port boat broke rule 10.

You should have immediately shouted "Protest" in a clear loud voice. If the other boat did not take her penalty as soon as possible you should have filled in a protest form and demanded a hearing.

If port tack boat was an experienced sailor, who should know better, then by attempting to mislead you about your rights he clearly did not "compete in compliance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play". He thus broke rule 2 "Fair Sailing". You or the protest comitteee should protest him under this rule and a non excludable disqualification would be the appropriate (and obligatory) penalty. Such behaviour should not be tolerated

If he was an inexperienced sailor suggest he buy a rule book and commentary.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 May 09 at 8:38am

Well explained Gordon :-) and dead right by my view. I have had someone try to protest me following a tack because they said my tack was not complete because my sail was not set. I pointed it that was irrelevant it was my course that mattered.

This was an experienced sailor (and a nice chap by all accounts) but he never keeps himself up to date on the current rules.



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 12 May 09 at 10:30am

Originally posted by gordon

Once again, in order to fully understand a rule it is important to read the definitions in your rule book.

"A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side." Nothing in the definition about how the sails are trimmed, indeed a boat with no sails hoisted would still be on starboard or port tack!

Sorry Gordon, for the benefit of some readers who may mis-interpret,  could you add the full definition which covers 'running by the lee' ?

Andy Mc.



Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 12 May 09 at 11:45am
Andy Mc - the definition of Tack, starboard or port contains nothing about running by the lee. However the definition of leeward does (but then all readers knew that because they have been reading their rule books astidously!).

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: Adam MR 1137
Date Posted: 12 May 09 at 12:14pm

Thanks for the clarification. I have been reading my rule book, and did think I was correct, so will have to have a friendly chat with him next time were at the club. He is an experienced racer but I am sure he was mistaken rather than misleading me, he is a very fair guy. Is it something that used to be in the rules and has been changed?

I only really started racing seriously last season, so still getting the hang of the rules and their interpretations, so your help is much appreciated.



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Merlin rocket 1137
OK 2049
Can be seen at http://www.wellandyachtclub.co.uk/ - WYC


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 12 May 09 at 7:13pm

Thank you Gordon,

As ever, you are 100% precise (and concise) with your answers.

I didn't mean to imply that 'running by the lee' definition was included in tack, just that somebody might have not understood the definition of windward/leeward side which could be equally relevant (although not to the original question posted in this thread).

Andy Mc.



Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 12 May 09 at 7:18pm
Quickly looking at the 88-92 rules I can't see anything that would have changed the interpretation.

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 12 May 09 at 7:18pm
Got two events to set up (NOR, SIs and such). as soon as I have that I'll do something on windward/leeward and running by the lee.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 19 May 09 at 1:39pm

Ok, here's one from me.

Firstly, i'm an inexperienced racer that, generally, just tries to stay out of everyones way  .... however, on Sunday, i found myself making a cracking start, right up at the far end (most were at the committee boat end). About 3 seconds off the start - i'd have hit the line with about 1 to spare) - a fast reaching laser came up on my port side, slightly converging courses, we're both on Starboard and i (think) i understand that he was going to get the overlap AND i was windward boat so, technically i have to keep clear? .... however, the laser did come very fast to the line and very close to me - to the point where i had no room in order to keep clear and had to tack around just as i reached the line (right on the start end marker) in order to give him room.

Now, as i said, my position was more luck than anything & i just wanted to keep clear so, right now, i'm not into protesting anyone...BUT, as i understand it, whilst he had right of way, he also has to give me room to keep clear? There was no room other than to go OCS & around the start pin or go away and turn right round...that's what i did and ended up at the back of the fleet instead of (possibly) winning the start.

I just want to be clear so that my understanding increases.

Would i have been justified in protesting or was it just one of those things?



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Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Intl 420 ('Little Minx'),Contender 'Mild Oats' (620), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack'


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 19 May 09 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by fleaberto

Ok, here's one from me.

Firstly, i'm an inexperienced racer that, generally, just tries to stay out of everyones way  .... however, on Sunday, i found myself making a cracking start, right up at the far end (most were at the committee boat end). About 3 seconds off the start - i'd have hit the line with about 1 to spare) - a fast reaching laser came up on my port side, slightly converging courses, we're both on Starboard and i (think) i understand that he was going to get the overlap AND i was windward boat so, technically i have to keep clear? .... however, the laser did come very fast to the line and very close to me - to the point where i had no room in order to keep clear and had to tack around just as i reached the line (right on the start end marker) in order to give him room.

Now, as i said, my position was more luck than anything & i just wanted to keep clear so, right now, i'm not into protesting anyone...BUT, as i understand it, whilst he had right of way, he also has to give me room to keep clear? There was no room other than to go OCS & around the start pin or go away and turn right round...that's what i did and ended up at the back of the fleet instead of (possibly) winning the start.

I just want to be clear so that my understanding increases.

Would i have been justified in protesting or was it just one of those things?

 

Something not right here.

1, Fast reaching laser, so not sailing up wind?

2, Converging course with you; thus you were sailing LOWER?

3, No room to avoid, yet you managed to tack?  in tacking you would have pushed your stern towards the other boat.

4, maybe a diagram would help?



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F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 19 May 09 at 2:51pm
As you rightly point out, if a boat establishes an overlap to leeward then they acquire a right of way. You, as windward boat have to keep clear (rule 11), and they have to give you room to keep clear (rule 15). In addition, if the overlap was established from clear astern then leeward boat may not, after the starting signal, sail above her proper course, which on a beat is close-hauled.

1. It should be noted that you do not have to start keeping clear until the overlap is established, you do not have to anticipate.

2. If keeping clear means you have to tack, or cross the start line, that is your bad luck.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 May 09 at 3:36pm
Yep, as Gordon says, he has to give you room [=time] to keep clear, *but* if in order to keep clear you end up going over the line and are OCS then so be it. That's a risk of being on the line early/on time.


Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 19 May 09 at 4:42pm

Sorry scoob, i didn't really explain it too well to be honest, suffice to say that yeah, whilst the issue of room etc came to my mind, the answers given by Gordon & Jim have cleared that up for me. Just wanted to get it clear in my mind really, no intention of a protest - wouldn't have stood anyway - and i'm not fussed about having to go around, just wanted to check and get it sorted in my brain. Yeah, i had to move away but as pointed out, that's all the name of the game i guess   Lesson for next time? - make sure i stay at the back hahaha! - and read a bit more of my rule book.

Cheers guys.



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Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Intl 420 ('Little Minx'),Contender 'Mild Oats' (620), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack'


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 19 May 09 at 5:08pm

This month's Y&Y has an article on starting.

you normally need to be a few boat lengths back from the line to prevent this happening and then start accelerating at the right time.  There are ways to defend but you need to be aware of the situation developing.  Lots of starting practice is probably the best way to develop the necessary skills.

If you would like acopy of the beginners guide to racing CD which is used at BCYc for the start racing course PM me your address and I'll put one in the post (donation to sailability if you find it helpful)!

 



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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 20 May 09 at 8:39am

fleaberto:

Anticipation is the name of the game... thinking ahead... like in a chess game, thinking 3 or 4 movs ahead.

As you sail down the line towards the pin end, keep looking around. Once you see the danger approaching in the form of a Laser, you have 3 choices:

1) As you did, get luffed over the line, andhave to start behind people.

2) Speed up, cross the bow of the Laser, and then luff to slow down again. You are now leeward boat, and he has to luff to avoid you. But you need to get ahead of and to leeward of the Laser early enough.

3) Slow down and allow the Laser to go ahead of you and have "the best" start off the pin end, and you accept the 2nd best by starting just up the line from him. This is much better than being luffed over the line!




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