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How long does a boat stay fast?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: How old is your boat?
Forum Discription: Antiques or brand new... tell us here!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=538
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 7:11am
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Topic: How long does a boat stay fast?
Posted By: Adam84
Subject: How long does a boat stay fast?
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 11:29am

I sail a GP14 and within the class lots of people believe that the GRP boats after about two years loose there edge and become less competitive. If you look after the boat well what would be the reasons for the reduction in speed? Does anyone have any views on this?  




Replies:
Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 11:42am

Wow never heard tha one before. But I have heard dtuff about the boats being good on diferent legs as GRP and wood flex diferently, so react diferently on diferent legs. the amaount that the boats flex may change over time so this my take the edge off the GRP boats.

I dont realy know the answer, but would be interested in anyone elses reasons.



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 12:01pm
Tends to be the nut on the end of the tiller, or so I've been told.......


Posted By: Adam84
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 6:38pm
Thats what I thought, some 420's sailors seem to have a similar opinion and dont like to keep there boats for much more than a season. I think some people belive GRP boats go soft with age and becomes more flexable but i dont understand why. 


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 10 Mar 05 at 6:45pm

Originally posted by Granite

When the boat flexes both the resin and the fibers strech the problem with Polyester resin boats is that the resin is not quite as stretchy as the glass so as the boat flexes you get micro cracking of the resin. this is largely what makes a boat go soft with age.

that seems to be the consensus in the other thread.



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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 12 Mar 05 at 9:43pm
most boats only lose there speed after long and extensive sailing in them!!

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International 14 1503


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 12 Mar 05 at 11:04pm

I've owned 2 Lasers and I'm sure the first (numbered somewhere over 68000) was stiffer than my more recent (numbered just over 100000).  It was very obviuos when righting from a capsize, the new one would flex if you pushed against the hull with your knee.  It also gradually acquired cracks in the gel coat in the cockpit floor.

I now sail a Laser4000, the hulls are notorioulsy tough and some old ones in the fleet are still very competitive.  These were the first hulls Laser built in foam sandwich and I think they may have erred on the conservative side.



Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 12 Mar 05 at 11:12pm
yer the 4000 has a bullet proof hull. 

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International 14 1503


Posted By: flat is fast
Date Posted: 14 Mar 05 at 11:30pm
iv heard that grp boats become slower as they age. this is why all the tp boats in our fleet are made out of wood. the only grp boat in the top 10 is  1 year old all the rest are in the 30s or less. i find wodden boats hold there structure alot longer and firmness. they also look better than "plastic boats" i have a laser as well and you can really tell the diffrence on the wear and tear of the boat

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no fear


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 16 Mar 05 at 5:08pm
what i've found is that as long as you look after most grp boats properly and dry them out after sailing keep them in a garage whenever possible they stay competitive for nearly as long as a wooden boat

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Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 16 Mar 05 at 5:30pm
It depends on the build quality and how light the class rules allow the construction to be. To take two contrasting examples, 470 hulls have a notoriously short competitive life before they become soft. Plastic Merlins last well because there is no point in building them ultra-light since they would then need to carry masses of lead to bring them up to class minimum weight,


Posted By: flat is fast
Date Posted: 16 Mar 05 at 5:58pm
i agree

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no fear


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 16 Mar 05 at 8:15pm
I think we've been through this before on this forum.  Boats that were designed to be made from wood tend to be fastest if made from wood.  They tend to have flat panels which are difficult to keep stiff if made from GRP, however techniques like foam sandwich, fancy fibres and epoxy resins are beginning to change this.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 Apr 05 at 11:41am
i agree to


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 29 Apr 05 at 6:21pm

Indeed, it is only with the advent of the new carbon/kevlar cloths, better epoxies, and high modulus foam that hulls originally designed for wooden construction are regulaly faster made in FRP. 

The problem with 470/420's is that they are not sandwich construction as it is next to impossible to make the foam follow the curves of the hull nicely and still have good mechanical properties.  If you made them of carbon/epoxy instead of glass/ployester then they would last a lot longer, but it would make an already expensive boat stupidly priced. 



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 24 May 05 at 10:49pm
why bother, move to a development class, and go carbon or kevlar, no worries

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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 25 May 05 at 6:57pm

What is interesting is you all seem to follow the lines of a flexable boat is a slow boat, i heard that the finns are trialing less rigid boats that cut through waves rather than go over them. I have also heard storys where not sure what class it was but sailors would by new boats lend them to people to wear them in so not sure on this one.

It is interesting how a good sailor can get an old boat going well, alot of it is in the mind "Bad workman blaims his tools".

In relation to cats a stiff boat is fast they tend to flex between waves (this is why if u pick up the bow the other should lift at the same time with no delay)making it a fast boat. I know the off the shelf tornado's last about 2 years while the boats they used in the olympics are specialy made thinner but do not last as long. The hurricane 5.9  is built like the 4000 and just lasts forever with some top boats being over 10 years old now.

 



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lifes to short to sail slow boats!

RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 25 May 05 at 11:29pm

There might be something in making some parts of the hull flexible to gain speed but those parts involved in holding the rig up need to be as stiff as possible.  Perhaps a flexible Finn is not bad because the rig is already flopping all over the place.

My reasoning is that the rig is a bit like a spring and the more tension you put in it the more it harnesses the wind forces.  Above a certain wind speed your are quite happy to lose some of those forces and the rig tension (among other things) determines at what speed this begins to happen.  If the boat bends under rig tension you may not be able to get enough tension to get all the power you need.

The Finn is a bit different with the rig being floppy all the time (except for some stiffnes in the mast) but plenty of sail area to make up for it and precious little leverage anyway.

A Laser 4000 can take a lot of rig tension and area for area its sail produces a lot of power.



Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 26 May 05 at 9:21am

If I'm wrong please correct me but I always figured that the more a boat planes across the wind range the stiffer if needs to be, partly due to the higher rig tensions used by styed rigs, and also because of the dynamic pressure on the base of the hull

N.B.: Just as a ball park figure the pressure on the surface of the hull at about 20-25 knots is three times atmospheric pressure, this is the same as the static presure 30 meters below the water's surface. 



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Phat Bouy
Date Posted: 16 Jun 05 at 2:56pm
The stiffness of a hull also depends on factors such as what materials the stiffeners are made from. A hard wood stringer is better than a soft wood one. The use of super fibres such as diolene, kevlar, carbon are very flexible lengthwise. However chop them into very short strands and arrange them such that they run vertically (what used to be called end-grain, as in balsa wood) and they are as solid as a brick. At the end of the day a wooden boat is made from just wood, a FRP boat has fibres and resin and the two are not as homgenous as all wood.


Posted By: Peter Rhodes
Date Posted: 16 Jun 05 at 3:44pm

Originally posted by stuarthop

what i've found is that as long as you look after most grp boats properly and dry them out after sailing keep them in a garage whenever possible they stay competitive for nearly as long as a wooden boat

therefore defeating the object of a grp boat in the first place



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Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 16 Jun 05 at 3:53pm
not really as a grp boat is far more versitile and easier to repair than a wooden one

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Posted By: Peter Rhodes
Date Posted: 16 Jun 05 at 4:43pm
how are they more versitile or easy to repair?

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Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 14 Jul 05 at 9:49am
cause u just shove some gelcoat on them

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Jp Indoe
Contender 518
Buzz591
Chew Valley Sailing club
Bristol


Posted By: Peter Rhodes
Date Posted: 14 Jul 05 at 2:17pm
which is the same or harder than just shoving paint on em

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Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 14 Jul 05 at 2:59pm
but if u take a chip/chunk out of the hull, apinting over it wont hide it will it? while a GRP u just build it back up again

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Jp Indoe
Contender 518
Buzz591
Chew Valley Sailing club
Bristol


Posted By: Peter Rhodes
Date Posted: 14 Jul 05 at 3:41pm
filler

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Posted By: Bobbins
Date Posted: 14 Jul 05 at 9:35pm

Or cut around the hole, chamfer the edges and put a new panel in.  No extra weight from layers of filler and still as solid as you'll ever need it to be.  Plus I'm fairly happy messing around with positions of blocks in my wooden fireball - think i'd be a bit more reserved with the screwdriver if it was grp



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www.fastsail.org

Fireball GBR 9476


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 09 Nov 05 at 6:12am
How competitive a boat stays is decided under a lot of parameters. Hull construction is the major consideration but that is also coupled with crew competence. As a class becomes more developed, it is is more dependant on hull integritory as the crew competance generalises at a higher level. However certain curcumstances may buck the trend. Within my sailing experience, classes like the Laser 5000 (my old class) and the 4000,offer the best playing field with older boats beating the newer boats. Laser 4000, 4015 has always been one of the top boats in Europe. 5071,my old boat was always quick due to good boat handling and tuning although being an "older" boat. We also beat many new 420s  in a 20+ year old boat purely through good boat handling skills. When we sailed a 3 year 420, we beat all the skiffs across the water due to the prevailing  conditions. I can see your point when you ask how long does a boat stay fast? But you have to consider how well it has been sailed, in what sort of conditions and how well you are going to sail it plus all the structurioral details aswell..........

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 09 Nov 05 at 9:21pm

My 1989 Cherub just won an open meeting so they can stay fast for a long time!

Cheers

Iain

PS But it did gain a new deck, carbon rig and racks this year.  And a new kite, main and jib.  Which were a lot bigger than the old ones.

PPS Oh yeah and another wire.

PPPS Oh and Steve Irish was driving it.



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RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: big man is back
Date Posted: 14 Nov 05 at 2:51pm
to be honist wooden boats just look better. i find them easy to fix and aslong as you keep em tucked up for the winter (whilst ur not using it ) the repair bills are low

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maybe theres more to life than being really really really really..........really good looking


Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 16 Nov 05 at 9:43pm

My 10 year old 5000 is still as good as new It comes down to how you look after them (sorry it was my boat not any more)



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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 05 at 7:30pm
5000s last for ever! Would be really nice to see them back in action as Andy Rice was mentioning in Yachts and Yachting, the mixing classes concept. You could get away with mixing the 5000 and Boss classes due to the similar PYs, and they'd still be able to give the 14s a good race (if well sailed). Can't see why they seem to be dissappearing, top high performance sailing for under 2 grand for competitive boats.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 18 Nov 05 at 10:01pm
Never understood it myself it's a really good boat.The only reason I moved to the 49er was because there were no 5k's to race against (though I'm enjoying the 49er

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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 18 Nov 05 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by les5269

Never understood it myself it's a really good boat.The only reason I moved to the 49er was because there were no 5k's to race against (though I'm enjoying the 49er


The fact they weigh about as much as your average wayfarer probibly had quite a bit to do with it

You'd be hard pushed to beat them on 'bang for buck' now though, some scarily cheep ones keep cropping up on ebay...


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Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 18 Nov 05 at 10:19pm
JUst sold mine for £2k  with 3 full suits (one new!) now thats value for money!

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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 05 at 10:51pm
Andy and Dave Richards' old boat was on E-bay the last time I checked, now that would be a seriously sorted boat. I reckon 5000s would work well as a budget "stepping stone" boat to the 49er from single-stringed boats. They also do pretty well on handicap when sailed properly.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 18 Nov 05 at 10:57pm
Andy's boat sold for £1800 I think

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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 05 at 11:02pm
Bargain!

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: big man is back
Date Posted: 21 Nov 05 at 4:37pm

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

Andy and Dave Richards' old boat was on E-bay the last time I checked, now that would be a seriously sorted boat. I reckon 5000s would work well as a budget "stepping stone" boat to the 49er from single-stringed boats. They also do pretty well on handicap when sailed properly.

doesnt every boat do well on handicap if sailed properly?



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maybe theres more to life than being really really really really..........really good looking


Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 21 Nov 05 at 8:33pm
Turnturtle 5000's were called 5tonners because they were built to last and they will.They weigh a lot but on handicap were the same as a boss (says something about the boss eh?)I owned mine for 8 years and enjoyed it immensly

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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 21 Nov 05 at 9:54pm
Les is right, the 5000 and Boss have the same PY number (not too sure if the modifications like new kites on the Boss has brought the Bosses PY down though). We sailed the 5000 for a good few years, seriously thrashed the boat and had no major gear failures with the boat. We could race the boat week in week out and never really had to repair anything. However, I know someone who had a Boss and snapped the wings on her. We always felt the 5000 was slightly faster than the Boss, but the Boss has a chute compared to the 5000s bags for the kite which would make the Boss quicker and easier to drop the kite on. Its probably 50/50 between the boats, but it would take a lot of effort to break a 5000, not too sure about the Boss though.......

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 21 Nov 05 at 10:03pm
Got a friend who owns a boss he managed to put the mast thro the deck Only thing I ever broke was a rack(with the help of a fifteen)

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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 21 Nov 05 at 11:44pm
We should do a tally of everything that has ever been destroyed on a 5000, maybe get Noble in on the act. Reckon it would be suprisingly low. We claimed a mast after inverting and the boat lodging itself onto a sandbank in the middle of the Clyde. At the same Reggatta, 2 14s did the same thing and there is a massive sugar boat on its side, rotting away, not too far away from where it happened.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 23 Nov 05 at 9:22pm
We broke a centreboard on a slipway and a rack.Think that was all

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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 05 at 9:51pm
We killed a daggerboard too... One of our sails had a big hole the shape of me, but that was it.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 23 Nov 05 at 10:03pm
Not bad for an old boat then ?If you want fast for pennies buy a 5000!

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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 05 at 10:09pm
There's only 3 for sale on the website..... Hopefully there might be a resurgance.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 23 Nov 05 at 10:37pm
I count 4 for sale but I know 3 have been sold within the last 2 weeks.. each for £1000 or near to it! Now I just need to find one for me!

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RS800 GBR848
Weston SC


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 23 Nov 05 at 11:02pm
We have a 5k in the graveyard at our club, will be being sold soon unless its claimed. No sails but it'll be an absolute bargin!! looks in reasonably good nick too.

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Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 24 Nov 05 at 5:32pm
Oh great where do you sail?

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RS800 GBR848
Weston SC


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 24 Nov 05 at 6:34pm
Farmoor.

Theres also a 4k (without sails) a 3k, and an almost new looking blaze complete with combi in amongst the usual ents and laser hulls.

They wont be auctioned for a while but im guessing maby after the new yaer?


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Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 24 Nov 05 at 6:44pm
Ok cool, I'll keep a look out for other 5000s but could you let me know if you hear anything more about them being sold? Cheers

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RS800 GBR848
Weston SC


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 24 Nov 05 at 6:49pm
Will do matey


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Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 24 Nov 05 at 11:30pm
Cheers!

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RS800 GBR848
Weston SC


Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 26 Nov 05 at 8:11pm

Might sound silly but have you tried the Laser centre?



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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

http://www.grafham.org/" rel="nofollow - Grafham water Sailing Club The greatest inland sailing in the country


Posted By: CurlyBen
Date Posted: 27 Nov 05 at 8:52pm
I have actually! Unfortunately they don't have any, neither do club laser... I'll have to do some more searching I think!

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RS800 GBR848
Weston SC


Posted By: Graeme
Date Posted: 28 Nov 05 at 11:45am

I have a 5k for sale. 5037excellent condition, loads of kit. Spare everything.

Give me a call if interested.

mailto:busbydunlop@aol.com - busbydunlop@aol.com

 

 




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