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5,4,1 or 6,3,go

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Race Management
Forum Discription: For race officers and competiors to discuss the topic
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4630
Printed Date: 26 Sep 20 at 7:22pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: 5,4,1 or 6,3,go
Posted By: Contender443
Subject: 5,4,1 or 6,3,go
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 6:35pm

Just another quick survey. What does your club using for its starting sequence for normal club racing.

Does it use 5min 4min 1 min or 6 min 3 min go?

Single or multiple fleet starts?

Shore based or committee boat start?

Flags or a light system for starting?

We use

6,3,go

Multiple fleets

Shore

Flags



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764



Replies:
Posted By: s.a.l.t.y
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 6:44pm

6, 3 go

multiple fleets

flags

shore based



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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 6:58pm
4,2,Go
both (am class, pm all in)
usually boat
flags


Posted By: radixon
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 6:59pm

 6 min 3 min

multiple fleet starts (solo, h/cap, cat, cadet)

Shore based

Flags




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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 7:17pm
5,4,1 slow handicap, med handicap, fast handicap, lasers, laser II

I can't stand 6,3 go!


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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Just another quick survey. What does your club using for its starting sequence for normal club racing.

Does it use 5min 4min 1 min or 6 min 3 min go?

Single or multiple fleet starts?

Shore based or committee boat start?

Flags or a light system for starting?

We use

6,3,go

Multiple fleets

Shore

Flags



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http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC


Posted By: Webmuppet
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 7:32pm
6, 3, Go at Alton Water..........I was totally thrown when I went to one of the Fat Face open rounds and found that they do a 5,4,1, Go !

Single or multiple fleet starts? Single for the summer, multiple for the busier winter series

Shore based or committee boat start? - Usually shore based (but we've recently got access to a committee boat)

Flags or a light system for starting?  - Flags

Nigel


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I am the milkman of human kindness, I will leave an extra pint (Billy Bragg)

Graduate 2530 'Galaxy'


Posted By: theycallmegod
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 7:54pm
6-3
Multiple
Shore
Lights (works really well...)


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B14 698
Laser 135776


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 7:54pm
5min 4min 1 at Wilsonian, though I'd prefer 6 min 3 min go both as a racer and as an R.O.

Multiple fleet starts

Usually shore based, sometimes committee boat start

We use hinged 'flag boards' for starting. Really ingenious:

folded together they display nothing,

with the lower board folded out 90 deg. at the 5 min the class flag shows,

180 deg at the 4 and class and 'P' flags show,

back to 90 at the 1 min,

then up for go, simultaneously dropping the neighbouring lower board 90 deg for the next class start. One guy does the lot. If we had an exterior hooter switch he could run the start singlehanded (some people seem to do so already - must have long arms!)

 



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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 8:00pm
We're trying to restore a 10 minute gun, to encourage folk off the beach.
Technically if as is often currently the case, they are still lurking on the
beach at the 4 then technically they are in rule breach and a few of them
have been known to lurk in certain adverse tidal conditions.

What we'd like to see is a ten, then the five becomes a one minute for the
slow handicap who then go on the 4, whilst the faster boats get the 1
then off. If we have a big enough fleet that is, this windy season has
decimated us unfortunately. And we haven't helped with our recent "Arms
race crop" of faster boats that still work when its breezy distancing the
gap between the front and back of the fleet.

So more often than not it's still 5-4 1 go, flags if there's an OOD that
knows enough to use them otherwise it's sound signals.

Most of our races get run transit line off the club but in offshore
conditions we have no choice but to use sounds from the rescue boat.




Posted By: feva sailor
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 8:13pm

5,3,1 go

seperate start



Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 10:03pm

Originally posted by tgruitt

5,4,1 slow handicap, med handicap, fast handicap, lasers, laser II

I can't stand 6,3 go!

5 fleets using 541 that is a lot of flag changes for the RO and also a long sequence. How often does the RO get it wrong?

Also why do you not like 6,3 go. A lot of clubs use this as it is easier for the RO and racers to follow? 



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: ChickenTack
Date Posted: 10 Sep 08 at 10:22pm

5 min 4min 1 min (with a bell at 10 mins)

Single start

Shore based

Flags



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Regards,

Will

Crews union: beause its hard to be humble when you know you're so great!


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 9:01am
At Thornbury SC we use 5,4,1 sequence with three starts for the first race, Fast H'cap, Slow H'cap, Cruisers.

Second race only for dinghy fleets.

We have a shorebased line, and we use flags. Due to the failing eyesight of our members lights have been discussed on numerous occasions, but to get high enough intesity bulbs to be seen in all conditions would be prohibitively expensive.

Since changing from 6,3 we've had little or no problems, the only difficult bit is trying to hoist two flags and drop one at the same time if you have an OCS in the first fleet.


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 9:14am
Originally posted by Contender443

Originally posted by tgruitt

5,4,1 slow handicap, med
handicap, fast handicap, lasers, laser III can't stand 6,3 go!


5 fleets using 541 that is a lot of flag changes for the RO and also a long
sequence. How often does the RO get it wrong?


Also why do you not like 6,3 go. A lot of clubs use this as it is easier for
the RO and racers to follow? 



The go in the next classes 5 minute, they never it it wrong, it isn't that hard!
I don't like 6,3 because i like the 1 min signal, I have only raced with a 6.3
twice before and felt like I didn't know what was going on.

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 9:53am
We use 6-3 go for club racing and 5-4-1-go for open events.

With the lake being quite small if we used 5-4-1-go with a potential 4 starts it means the first fleet off would be in to their second lap by the time the last fleet started (messy). 6-3-go allow us to get all fleets off in a maximum of 12 minutes (general recalls aside).

We use a mix of shore based and committee boat based with flags (again the start lines are short so no issue with this).

As an RO I prefer this plus we have a timing box that boes 6-3-go and can handle multiple fleets.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Helmsman
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 11:26am

The Medway Yacht Club uses the 5-4-1-go time sequence as described in the Racing Rules of Sailing. Because we do not have a regular race officer and because flags are difficult to see when used for shore based starts we use 150W security lamps controlled by a computer to make the sound and visual signals so that all the race officer needs to do is click a button if he wants to order a postponement, individual recall, general recall etc. with automatic re-scheduling. The system can also log the finishing times and print out the results as soon as the race ends.

 



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Mad Scientist


Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 12:59pm

5,4,1,Go

Race 1 = all-in novice. Race 2 = Fast, Laser, Slow. Race 3 = All-in

Shore for signals, Boat for line

Lights

5,4,1,go makes it much easier to sync your watch or even busk it if your watch goes blank on the way to the line (like last night).



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Graduate 2157, Laser 147050


Posted By: tmoore
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 1:39pm

we use 5,4,1 go from a little dory with flags all operated by the race officer.

we only have one start per race as we only get 7or8 or boats.



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Landlocked in Africa
RS300 - 410
Firefly F517 - Nutshell
Micro Magic RC yacht - Eclipse


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 2:03pm
6-3-0
Multiple
Shore & Committee Boat

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Posted By: vscott
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 2:35pm
Because we have 3 short quick races in the morning and want to keep one routine for all starts we are on
3 2 1 go

Opens are 5 4 1 go

Alwasy flags,
96% starts from a committee boat

KWSC

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Mk IV Osprey 1314 Think Again

Kielder Water Sailing Club


Posted By: Helmsman
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 3:10pm
If laps are very short and there are several races to be started then it may be desirable to start at 3 minute intervals, in which case the 6-3-go time sequence is convenient. However this sequence is non standard so may confuse visitors if they have not read the sailing instructions. It is possible to start at 5 minute intervals with the 5-4-1-go sequence, but if laps are long enough it is even better to start at 10 minute intervals to avoid having to display individual recall signals during the starting sequence of the next race. When there are many entries and races are started from a committee boat it is better to use the standard procedures set out in the racing rules of sailing. 

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Mad Scientist


Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 4:57pm

5,4,1 Go

Flags with sounder

From a committee boat.

For Club racing then it's a mass handicap start (505's in with 4.7's and an increasingly larger number of Flying Fifteens).  When we have an external event then they have their own start (5,4,1 go) followed by a handicap start



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When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss

Crew on 505 8780



Posted By: iansmithofotley
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 8:50pm

Hi everyone,

My club changed from 6 - 3 - 0, to 5 - 4 - 1 - 0 shortly after the rules changed in 2001.  We use flags with an Autohoot horn system (which is great).  For club racing, there is just one start as we only have 'handicap racing'. If we host open meetings, then there are separate starts for each fleet, as normal.  Usually, for club racing, we use shore based starts with transits, as most members, who are on Race Officer duty, for club racing, are just too lazy to launch a committee boat, even though there are two readily available.

It's a shame because it makes such a difference having a decent first beat to spread out the fleet, instead of a one sided beat, fetch, reach or run to the first mark, which usually happens and boats often raft up at the first mark. 

Open meeting starts are usually on the water using a committee boat and a course mark with flags and horns.

One thing that has always puzzled me was why things changed.  I can understand the 'unofficial' change by many clubs in the 80's and 90's from 10 - 5 - 0 to 6 - 3 - 0 as the former was unnecessarily too long, particularly for dinghies, small cats and keelboats.  So what was the logic behind the change to 5 - 4 - 1 - 0?  I have always wondered as I never had a problem with 6 - 3 - 0.  As a Race Officer, I  found it easier to use 6 - 3 - 0 than 5 - 4 - 1 - 0, when there are multiple starts and/or General Recalls.  Does anyone know why the ISAF introduced the change to the present 5 - 4 - 1 - 0 system in 2001?

Ian   (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 11 Sep 08 at 10:05pm

Grafham uses 6-3-0 as we have 5 fleets to get going.

IMO 5-4-1-0 is for people who don't know how to use their watch. 



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F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: Helmsman
Date Posted: 14 Sep 08 at 9:06am

The 5-4-1-go time sequence is intended mainly for open meetings which usually have committee boat starts. Because of the large numbers of boats and the absence of transit marks it is often necessary to have general recalls, and penalty starts are then used to make boats respect the line. Postponements are also common, so race specific warning signals are needed. The standard time sequence gives plenty of time for boats to position themselves on the correct side of the line so as to avoid a penalty. Shore based starting lines are often used for normal club racing because they require less effort. There are usually transit marks too, so general recalls and penalty starts are seldom required. The main reason for using the 5-4-1-go time sequence for shore based starts is to maintain compatibility with committee boat starts and the Racing Rules of Sailing. Lamps are much better than flags for shore based starts because they provide excellent contrast against the dark cluttered background. It is also relatively easy to switch them on and off automatically. A wide repertoire of signals can be sent from a single lamp using Morse code which is much easier to remember than flags, and timing is very precise if the signals are generated by computer.  The MYC has been using this system for cruiser and fast dinghy handicap racing for several years.



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Mad Scientist


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 15 Sep 08 at 12:23pm

Shore based or committee boat start?

Flags or a light system for starting?

We use 5,4,1,Go

Mixed fleet start: Fast h/cap (+ cats) & Med h/cap



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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 11:02am

5-4-1 is the world recognised standard. I cannot see any reason for using any other unless races are very short - in which case the team racing 3-2-1 could be used.. The 1 minute gun is important as this is when I,Z or Black flag rules kick in. The 5 minute gun can be changed, However I believe that increasingly clubs favour using a pre-warning signal at 10 minutes before the start for the first start in a series.

 

For our dinghy regatta we use 5-4-1 with at least a minute between the start of one fleet and the warning signal of the next - gives every one a chance to breath, and check flags.

 

Individual and geneal recall flags are on poles, usually displayed by the RO or his assistant

 

Gordon



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Gordon


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 11:10am

The problem I see with an indefinite gap (at least a minute) between starts is that racers will be uncertain when to expect their 5.

With a continuous series of starts, I use the 1 minute of the preceding  fleet to count me down to starting my watch on their start/our 5-min.



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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 12:37pm
For normal club racing, we use the shore based line, and have three rolling starts on 3-2-1-Go, with Go for Fast being 3 for Slow, and Go for Slow being 3 for Solos- all running off of an auto-hoot. Opens we do have a committee boat, and do switch to 5-4-1.


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 08 at 12:39pm

We use a 1 minute (or multiples of 1 minute if something goes wrong) simply because our committee boat team is usually inexperienced. We never have to manipulate 2 flags at the same time (X and 1st Sub are on poles), we have a minute to note OCS and other dettails, check that we are ready with the correct class flag etc. It also means that the line closes for the proceeding fleet 1 minute before the 1 minute gun!

 

If we had a regular committee boat team we may well do things differently. The competitors do not mind - they are even happy with the practice of not having a defined start order. For regattas we use a separate finish boat and start the classes as soon as they are finished the previous race. We are always in a hurry because we have only a 4 to5 hour tide windw to get racing in. On regatta weekends we manage 3 races per day.

 

Gordon



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Gordon



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