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Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=459
Printed Date: 17 Aug 19 at 11:35pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: +plus plus+
Posted By: tgruitt
Subject: +plus plus+
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 3:38pm

Jim C,

I have just been looking on http://www.cix.co.uk/~hjones/plusplus/index.htm - http://www.cix.co.uk/~hjones/plusplus/index.htm  and have seen the ++, I think thats an amazing boat! Do you still have it, what does it sail like, is is fast? Where do you sail it if you still have it.



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Needs to sail more...



Replies:
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 7:12pm
Hey that's a really interesting boat - there's nothing else like it - faster than a Contender without a trapeze - a sort of tamed Moth that can carry some weight.  It should have a future.


Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 7:46pm
Old slow and fat he said.  I think I need one!

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Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 7:52pm

Stick to the Contender, Dave - I'm sure you're gonna like it

Besides, we need you as a Contender helm to make up the fleet, so you're stuck with The Golden Snitch  



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http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 8:22pm

Wow,

 

That really does look a nice boat to sail !



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by tgruitt

Jim C,


I have just been looking on http://www.cix.co.uk/~hjones/plusplus/index.htm


That's a rather out of date page: I had a disagreement with the ISP and lost ability to update it. This one is a bit more recent... http://www.cherubpres.f9.co.uk/plusplus/ - http://www.cherubpres.f9.co.uk/plusplus/

What's it like? Needs at least one more prototype. I enjoy sailing it, and its entertaining, but has its problems. The most irritating one is that its fast enough to sail out of the front of a gust, but not fast enough to sail into the back of one. Consequently in gusty inland conditions (just about every time I sail it) you spend all your time sailing downwind in the lulls. So you go tearing past a Laser, out the front of the gust and stop. Meanwhile said Laser is still in the gust and sailing in twice as much wind. Ho Hum.

Another time :- Well the rig needs some work, the taper on the mast is wrong I think, and it doesn't have the gust response I think it should. I'd also make the mast taller and foot shorter because with the slab in the rig has a pathetically slow aspect ratio and it really suffers. Mast could go forward a bit, have to suffer worse nose dibing to mnake tacking easier, some subtle chamnges to hull shape, bit narrower on the chines, a flat along the centreline from a bit in front of the mast back, some other stuff like that.

Sound like a lot of criticism and a lot of problems, well yes, but to put in in perspective there are very few mass production boats I've sailed much that I wouldn't be able to put a similar list together for - even the 29er, which I think is fundamentally the best bit of production dinghy design for a very long time would gather some suggestions...

Of course the biggest problem it suffers from is that the difference between a fast boat and a slow boat in a given set of dimensions is usually about the equivalent of 40 points of PY, but the difference between a fast helm and a slow one is about 200, and as singlehander helms go I'm a pretty competent Cherub crew... At the moment my club gives me an absurdly generous handicap so I shouldn't complain I suppose!

It lives at Island Barn, which is IMHO the club in the South London area, both friendly and competitive. At times in our winter series the poor race officer is faced with two strange singlehanders with sail no 001, the other being Stuart Gurney's http://www.bluelightning.co.uk/Heatwave/heatwave01.htm - Heatwave , which benefits from a rather more talnted helmsman!

Oh yes, speaking of the beast you may enjoy this. It is of course a photo hacking job, knocked up when there were some floods near home, but I did get a serious request for it to be used in a bona fide printed publication by some naive environmentalist or something who thought it was genuine!




Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 17 Feb 05 at 12:46am

Originally posted by redback

- there's nothing else like it -

Jim will hate me for this but - isn't the Blaze a little bit similar???

(Obviously the ++ is infinitely better developed etc etc)



Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 17 Feb 05 at 9:47am

Ummm i spose so but this isnt another mass production boat like topper make !

 

Go on Jimc it looks great !



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Feb 05 at 10:01am
Originally posted by Blobby

Originally posted by redback

- there's nothing else like it -


Jim will hate me for this but - isn't the Blaze a little bit similar???


(Obviously the ++ is infinitely better developed etc etc)



The Blaze is certainly a little similar. But not very similar. The ratios and dynamics are quite different!


Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 17 Feb 05 at 3:55pm
are you going to make any more of the plus plus? I think it looks like an amazing boat, I would love to sail one! I all for one offs which are well thought through!

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Feb 05 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by tgruitt

are you going to make any more of the plus plus? I think it looks like an amazing boat, I would love to sail one! I all for one offs which are well thought through!


Anyone can build one! There's a set of rules, go for it. For that matter an old I14 hull might make a sensible base, I saw a semi derelict one at Weston last year that didn't look too old, strip out the shell, add wings and an RS600 rig!

Its by no means impossible I might do another one some time, but at the moment I'm a bit bored with boatbuilding.


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 17 Feb 05 at 6:57pm

looks pretty cool

 



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Posted By: mpl720
Date Posted: 17 Feb 05 at 7:16pm

Blaze a bit like ++ ?

Well I suppose so - similar length - ++ about 2" longer, width 2.5 v 2.7m but sail size - a biggest difference there ....  The Blaze carries 10.0m and the ++ looks way over 12m.  (Remember the Laser carries only 7.07m !)  So I'd suggest that the ++ would definately appeal to larger helms !

Another way to go is to ask is there any real support for a 'big boys' rig for the Blaze ?  We've been considering it for a couple of years now in the association as those much over about 95kg do suffer relatively across the full range of conditions.  The concensus is that a '600' size rig is too big without a trapeze as there are limits to what works with wings when its really windy but that 11.5 metres should be possible with a longer stick (and possibly a carbon one at that)  Might make more sense to build on prospering class and grow it on the back of an already supported and expanding circuit.   

We have followed this discussion with interest - The ++ is a great concept if you like wings and are 'adult' sized but I would not be tempted to make it narrower on the waterline.   Of course you can go faster still if you do - but mortals have to  race and enjoy it as well ! 

Anyone interested in a 14' winged weight carrier with a big rig - come along to the Blaze association stand at Alexandra palace.  If enough do we'll seriously look at a variant - and maybe call it 'XX'  ? If those behind the ++ wanted to maintain a seperate class development we'd still be happy to assist in any way we can. More people racing and enjoying it is good whatever they sail ...... 

Cheers - Mike Lyons - Blaze Class association

PS - TOTALLY independent from the manufacturer in case you ever wondered (that's why it works ....!) 

 

 

    



Posted By: nathan
Date Posted: 17 Feb 05 at 11:36pm

Mike

Whats the minimum weight for a blaze nowadays? I am right in thinking all the weight equalisation has been chucked and everyone's sailing on max racks and no lead? Apart from the gooseneck being lowered are the old ali masts the same as on the new 'x' blazes? ie with just the new sail upgrade is an old boat competitive?

Cheers



Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 8:14am

Jim,  I'm just trying to understand your rise of floor rule...

"Rise of floor shall be measured with an inverted U shaped gauge. The two legs shall be 900mm apart and 100mm long. A line shall be marked exactly between the two legs of the U. This establishes a rise of floor of 100mm at a point 450mm each side of the centreline. The gauge shall be run along the boat from the bow until a point is reached where both legs are in contact with the hull of the boat and the centre mark is in contact with the centreline of the keel. This point shall be marked as point A. The gauge shall then be run along the hull until the centre mark is no longer touching the hull or the end of the hull is reached. This point shall be marked as point B. The distance between point A and point B shall be at least 1.2m. If bumps or distortions exist that in the measurer's opinion exist solely or primarily to affect these measurements then the measurer should estimate where the measurement points would have come without those distortions and mark points A and B appropriately."

Up to the marking of point A, everything is clear.  Aft of point A I am not so clear.  Is it acceptable for only the centre of the gauge to touch the keel with the two legs not touching the hull?

I guess if the intention is to maintain a fairly narrow waterline beam then the answer should be yes...



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 8:19am
Originally posted by Blobby

Jim,  I'm just trying to understand your rise of floor rule...


[snip]

Up to the marking of point A, everything is clear.  Aft of point A I am not so clear.  Is it acceptable for only the centre of the gauge to touch the keel with the two legs not touching the hull?


I guess if the intention is to maintain a fairly narrow waterline beam then the answer should be yes...



You're quite right. Its b****y difficult writing rise of floor rules, I don't knw of a class that has a good one.

Jim C


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 8:32am

very true - and I can see for the ++ it is doubly difficult as you are trying to prevent both very wide and very narrow boats...



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 9:03am

Looks like a Blaze to me ...

When are the Blaze fleet going to come clean on this handicap - the added sail area, widened the boat and removed lead ... the PY should be adjusted!!

Rick



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Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 2:00pm

I think you'll find the sail area has been reduced - http://www.blaze-sailing.org.uk/ - http://www.blaze-sailing.org.uk/

Isn't the point of the yardstick that it's based on real results but can be changed by any race officer? In which case just petition you RO and make sure Whitstable Yacht Club sends it's returns in - job done with the minimum of whingeing

http://www.blaze-sailing.org.uk/ -  



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Graduate 2157, Laser 147050


Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 2:06pm

Jim

Aren't you tempted to make it a one design and prove you development guys build better boats? You said yourself you're getting bored with boatbuilding.

I, for one would give it a test sail as the range of boats for me is fairly limited because of my largeness - even thinking of taking Mike up on his 'Supersize me' Blaze idea.



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Graduate 2157, Laser 147050


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by Matt Jackson

Jim


Aren't you tempted to make it a one design and prove you development guys build better boats?



No!

Apart from anything else I lack the time to properly develop a one design. The task of designing a one design is quite different from designing a box rule boat. For a box rule you merely have to design the boat that measures within the box that will be fastest for the person who's going to sail it. For a one design you aren't nearly so worried about performance, but have all sorts of other things to consider from how cheap it is to build through to whether it looks pretty in the magazine photos.

It would need to go through at least two more prototypes on the hull shape I guess, together with a whole lot f work on the rig - I don't believe that anyone (maybe with the exception of the new byte rig which I haven't saile with) has designed a good modern singlehander rig. There's a great deal of work to do in sorting out gyst response and so on so for a single sail boat so that you can drag a big enough rig upwind to be fast downwind.

Maybe not all one designs go through that much development, but the Bethwaite ones certainly do - and you don't see everything the Bethwaite's try and abandon over here - and if you're not going to do it to a reasonable standard why bother!


Posted By: Twin Poles
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 4:35pm

Just reading through this topic and i've noticed nobody has brought up the RS300, which to me seems closer to the ++ than the Blaze.

RS300 simlar length, again less sail area but also narrower than the ++.

Wasn't the 300 also designed by a moth sailor that was too old and heavy for the International Moth, not that i'm saying that fits your description Jim.



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Posted By: mpl720
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 4:38pm

When are the Blaze fleet going to come clean on this handicap - the added sail area, widened the boat and removed lead ... the PY should be adjusted

Well if it was all factual that might be appropriate !!  The sail size was REDUCED - repeat REDUCED to make it more manageable about 4 years ago.  The original had far too much roach to be useful except offwind in light stuff.  The boom was lowered to get a bit of the area back but its still much smaller overall than previously.  The width is unchanged - the weights went years and years ago (never worked anyway and ripped your wetsuit to shreds).  As for the handicap - if it blows we will be all over you given half a chance but if it's light there are a raft of boats that show us the way home.  PN's are averages, after all, across a range of wind conditions. For instance the carbon masted epoxy Phantom is very fast when its light and medium but only the very best can still sail it to handicap when it blows.  (Phantoms -please take this as compliment from someone who is too light for one).  We don't set the PN by the way - return assessment is by the RYA - the last time THEY changed it it went from 1045 to 1047 - reflecting actual results.  I think this 'easy PN' perception comes because people actually watch racing in blowy conditions when we do well and ignore it when its 100% displacement (those more boring times).  The Contender is another class that can burn off nearly everything when its blowy but is less fast in the light stuff, ditto Moth and half a dozen others.  Might make more sense to have light wind / heavy wind split PN's across the board (..cos I'd like to do better on light days as well !)

We allow very limited changes which are reviewed periodically and are much tighter than most other 'one-designs'.  Standard Hull, foils, spars (only M7 currently) and maximum width, minumum weight.  No extra controls allowed but you can modify any that are there already.  Early boats can be converted to the 'new' sail and no spar changes are needed.  

Go on - give one a try if you get the chance.  If it's not for you fine, but it is getting increasingly popular for some reason or another.  For instance we already have more than 20 pre-paid entries for the June 2005 Nationals and it's only mid-February...... 

Cheers - Mike Lyons (Blaze Class Association)     

 

 

 

 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Jul 05 at 11:39pm
For those who are interested in the beast there's a new photo I've just got on the front of the website that shows up the incredibly small bow wave I get on the beast(and my tasteful colour scheme [grin]. This is sort of forced mode/marginal planing speeds upwind. There seems to be a fineness of bow where you get this effect, I know Frank Bethwaite has seen it too. http://www.cherubpres.f9.co.uk/plusplus/ - http://www.cherubpres.f9.co.uk/plusplus/ . Oh and (shameless free ad) the boat is kinda for sale at the moment should anyone want a flawed but rather interesting one off. Could also be readily converted to a two hander with a jib (and kite). Doubt it would measure to I14 rules though.


Posted By: TheSeaFalcon
Date Posted: 22 Jul 05 at 7:37am
That is nice beyond nice! I love it, but sadly I have nothing like the money needed for buying it!  Well, maybe another time! Did you just build that yourself then from bits of other boats, or is that a recognized boat?!

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x--x--x<x>x--x--x
Topper 41825
Cherub 2539 (going, going and not quite but nearly gone)!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Jul 05 at 7:45am
Originally posted by TheSeaFalcon

Did you just build that yourself then from bits of other boats, or is that a recognized boat?!


Neither! The hull shell is to my design by Bloodaxe boats, mast and sail were commissioned specially for it, I did all the fiddly bits myself (which saves a heap of money over getting them profesionally done.)



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