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49er medal race

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Olympic Sailing
Forum Discription: The top end racing in our sport
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4517
Printed Date: 05 Aug 20 at 8:35am
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Topic: 49er medal race
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Subject: 49er medal race
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:16am

Now this is drama and excitment.

My son was watching Bens efforts, understood how important it was but still went off to play with his lego.

 

He has been glued to the 49er race.  He's rooting for the Danes !



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Replies:
Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:27am
took destruction derby to a whole new level.

I'd be surprise if the danes were allowed to keep their medal race score in a borrowed boat. I though sailing scoring is based on the boat.. does it change in olympic classes?


Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:33am

one of the best televised races I've ever seen !!

Well done to everyone who took part in that

Well done the Danes

 

 



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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:35am

Originally posted by laser4000

took destruction derby to a whole new level.

I'd be surprise if the danes were allowed to keep their medal race score in a borrowed boat. I though sailing scoring is based on the boat.. does it change in olympic classes?

 

It's an interesting one.  The sailors sailed and finished.  The boat was measured and passed.  Be the OOD is reading the NOR and SI's right now,,,,,

Will we see a protest frenzy whoever wins? 

Would be a bad thing for the media profile of sailing, this (so far) has been the most dramatic race (IMO made the finn race look very boring). 

Hope for this much wind for the rest of the week and some Tornado sailing on the TV.  IN SOME DECENT WIND!!!

 

Also noticed that there was on-board cameras, but we saw nothing much at all from them.  Bet there is more footage to come.....

 



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Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:37am
That was amazing! It looks like the Danes have won in a borrowed boat! http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=142998 - See the text updates here .


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:37am
I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery than the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in the last gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal.

I thought they would have looked better on the box than they did. Disappointing


Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:40am

MMMMM....we will have to wait and see about the potential protest.

Hopefully the rest of the competitors will show the same level of sportsmanship that got the Danes onto the water to race.....we shall see!



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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:45am

SI 21.2 Replacements Ashore: Requests for substitution of damaged or lost equipment shall be made to the measurement coordinator for consideration by the measurement committee. Permission will be given only when the committee is satisfied that the item of equipment is severely damaged, not deliberately mistreated, and cannot be repaired satisfactorily. A request shall be made at the first reasonable opportunity on a form available at the protest desk.

Make of that what you will!

 



Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:47am
Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery than
the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in the last
gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal.

I thought they would have looked better on the box than they did.
Disappointing


I agree. I thought it was a bit silly and a poor advert for the sport. I hate to
say it, but GRF could be right. It didn't look stupidly windy, but the best 49er
sailors in the world couldn't get round the course. I bet a well sailed 420
would have won that race on the water.


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:48am

Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery than the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in the last gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal.

I thought they would have looked better on the box than they did. Disappointing

 

Jim, I greatly respect you, but this is just utter rubbish.  If we ever want sailing to be watched by non sailors, this is exactly what they will wat to see.  Fast boats in challenging conditions.

Will this race make the "general news" - maybe, will it be on the hilights tonight.

YES....

Perhaps we need two olympic regattas

1, Slow boring boats drifting around the course that will inspire no-one except some sailors

2, Fast exciting boats which make the general public go "Wow" that looks wild and challenging, I'd like to try that....



-------------
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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
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Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

<FONT face=Arial>

SI 21.2 Replacements Ashore: Requests for substitution
of damaged or lost equipment shall be made to the measurement
coordinator for consideration by the measurement committee. Permission
will be given only when the committee is satisfied that the item of
equipment is severely damaged, not deliberately mistreated, and cannot
be repaired satisfactorily. A request shall be made at the first reasonable
opportunity on a form available at the protest desk.


Make of that what you will!


 



Clear as mud! Surely there has now got to be a protest frenzy! I've simply
never heard of anyone borrowing a boat like this before.



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:49am

Originally posted by Roy Race

Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery than
the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in the last
gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal.

I thought they would have looked better on the box than they did.
Disappointing


I agree. I thought it was a bit silly and a poor advert for the sport. I hate to
say it, but GRF could be right. It didn't look stupidly windy, but the best 49er
sailors in the world couldn't get round the course. I bet a well sailed 420
would have won that race on the water.

 

Perhaps you are GRF?



-------------
F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:50am
I'm not knocking what the danes did.. I think that's a fantastic effort to get back on the water and around the track when the Aussies, USA, brits, ITA we're all flipping

And if they'd picked up the Croatian stick and put it on their own boat then that would have been fine.. clearly time didn't allow that so they wen't with grab CRO boat and go sailing... I'm sure they won' t have had time to ask for dispensation..

As of 10:50 local they're scored as winning but I'm not convinced they'll survive the room...which is where I'm sure this will end up once the official results are posted.



Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

SI 21.2 Replacements Ashore: Requests for substitution of damaged or lost equipment shall be made to the measurement coordinator for consideration by the measurement committee. Permission will be given only when the committee is satisfied that the item of equipment is severely damaged, not deliberately mistreated, and cannot be repaired satisfactorily. A request shall be made at the first reasonable opportunity on a form available at the protest desk.

Make of that what you will!

 

Bring on the lawyers......can they replace an entire boat for a broken mast?  Is post the race the first reasonable opp given when the damage happened?



-------------
I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!


Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by Roy Race

Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I
reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery than the damn drifters... The
number of medals that changed hands in the last gybe/bear away to the
line was phenomenal. I thought they would have looked better on the box
than they did. Disappointing
I agree. I thought it was a bit silly
and a poor advert for the sport. I hate to say it, but GRF could be right. It
didn't look stupidly windy, but the best 49er sailors in the world couldn't
get round the course. I bet a well sailed 420 would have won that race on
the water.


 


Perhaps you are GRF?



Riiiight.


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:55am
Originally posted by tack'ho

Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

SI 21.2 Replacements Ashore: Requests for substitution of damaged or lost equipment shall be made to the measurement coordinator for consideration by the measurement committee. Permission will be given only when the committee is satisfied that the item of equipment is severely damaged, not deliberately mistreated, and cannot be repaired satisfactorily. A request shall be made at the first reasonable opportunity on a form available at the protest desk.

Make of that what you will!

 

Bring on the lawyers......can they replace an entire boat for a broken mast?  Is post the race the first reasonable opp given when the damage happened?

Whilst I'm sure post race is the 1st resonable opp, I'm not sure that the jury will permit taking another boat for a broken mast.  Tough but it is the olympics.

What annoyed me was that Shirley/Richard didn't even mention that possibility...yes it was an impossible race to commentate on in terms of the overall results...but most sailors know that it's the BOAT that scores the points...not the people sailing it...although I guess in olympic sailing it's a bite more muddled as it's the athlete that gets selected to go...

We shall see how it develops...personally I think it will be along night in the room.


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 11:04am
Well the Croatian equipment was all stamped and measured.
If you were the Danes, would you have taken the other boat and sorted it out after, or watched your gold medal fade away...
The sorting out will be the interesting bit.


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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: SimonW
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 11:19am
Quote from ISAF site:

After an incredible 49er Medal Race on a stormy Fushan Bay three protests will be heard by the International Jury which could have a major impact on the results.
Provisionally the Danish 49er team of http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=DENJW1 - Jonas WARRER and  http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=DENMK3 - Martin IBSEN  have won gold after finishing seventh in the race. However, they have been protested by the Measurement Team after breaking their mast before the race got underway, returning to the marina and then competing in the race using the Croatian boat.

If the Danes are disqualified Spain’s http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=ESPMM8 - Iker MARTINEZ and  http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=ESPXF1 - Xabier FERNANDEZ , winners of the Medal Race, will have retained the title they won in Athens fours years ago.

Germany’s  http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=GERJP1 - Jan-Peter PECKOLT and  http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=GERHP1 - Hannes PECKOLT finished second in the Medal Race and are provisionally winners of the bronze medal. View details of the Protests as and when they happen in our http://www.sailing.org/olympics/racing/decisions.php - Protests & Communications section here ."




Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 11:21am
Originally posted by SimonW

Quote from ISAF site:

After an incredible 49er Medal Race on a stormy Fushan Bay three protests will be heard by the International Jury which could have a major impact on the results.
Provisionally the Danish 49er team of http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=DENJW1 - Jonas WARRER and  http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=DENMK3 - Martin IBSEN  have won gold after finishing seventh in the race. However, they have been protested by the Measurement Team after breaking their mast before the race got underway, returning to the marina and then competing in the race using the Croatian boat.

If the Danes are disqualified Spain’s http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=ESPMM8 - Iker MARTINEZ and  http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=ESPXF1 - Xabier FERNANDEZ , winners of the Medal Race, will have retained the title they won in Athens fours years ago.

Germany’s  http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=GERJP1 - Jan-Peter PECKOLT and  http://www.sailing.org/biog.php?id=GERHP1 - Hannes PECKOLT finished second in the Medal Race and are provisionally winners of the bronze medal. View details of the Protests as and when they happen in our http://www.sailing.org/olympics/racing/decisions.php - Protests & Communications section here ."


No Surprise there then - sorry Danes but for you the gold medal is over..


Posted By: AdrianM
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by Roy Race

Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery than
the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in the last
gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal.

I thought they would have looked better on the box than they did.
Disappointing


I agree. I thought it was a bit silly and a poor advert for the sport. I hate to
say it, but GRF could be right. It didn't look stupidly windy, but the best 49er
sailors in the world couldn't get round the course. I bet a well sailed 420
would have won that race on the water.

I'm with Jim a bit on this one.  I would have expected the 49ers to look much more impressive but I think that in the main it was down to the a low standard of TV coverage - misty lenses, dropping coverage of a boat half through a hot drop about to head up around the mark, pictures so far away you couldn't really see the speed OR skill involved.  It was entertaining in so far as watching a demilitiuon derby is entertaining with the challenge faced by the Danes giving it excitement.  Also have to say that with each swim GRF's posts did spring to mind.  Perhaps he could be allowed back to take a brief bow?

 

 

 



Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 11:34am

Originally posted by tack'ho

SI 21.2 Replacements Ashore: Requests for substitution of damaged or lost equipment shall be made to the measurement coordinator for consideration by the measurement committee. Permission will be given only when the committee is satisfied that the item of equipment is severely damaged, not deliberately mistreated, and cannot be repaired satisfactorily. A request shall be made at the first reasonable opportunity on a form available at the protest desk.

Make of that what you will!

Given that this is a rule for replacement ashore.......

First reasonable opportunity (implicaton is in writing) - definately would need to be a retrospective thing in this case

IMHO they will be thrown out of the medal race due to the replacement of the boat (and not just the mast) - not due to the infringement of the rule regarding permission to replace.

A case of thinking on your feet and damning the consequences - they would have (should have) known the implications of their actions.  Better to win on the water and have a 1% chance of retaining it in front of the jury than know you could have done something but didn't



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Crew on 505 8780



Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 12:18pm

Depends, usually when a mast goes on the 49er it rips the mast step out of the deck, so they could argue that the hull could not be used either, depends I guess, I really hope it does not stick, would be a shame to end the regatta this way!



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er
race was more of a lottery than the damn drifters... The number of
medals that changed hands in the last gybe/bear away to the line was
phenomenal. I thought they would have looked better on the box than
they did. Disappointing


 


Jim, I greatly respect you, but this is just utter rubbish.  If we ever want
sailing to be watched by non sailors, this is exactly what they will wat to
see.  Fast boats in challenging conditions.


Will this race make the "general news" - maybe, will it be on the
hilights tonight.


YES....


Perhaps we need two olympic regattas


1, Slow boring boats drifting around the course that will inspire no-
one except some sailors


2, Fast exciting boats which make the general public go "Wow" that
looks wild and challenging, I'd like to try that....



Would you mind a bit less prejudice?

Can you show us evidence that slow boats turn people off the sport?

Can you show us evidence that fast boats turn people onto the sport?

Once again, if fast boats turn people on and slow boats turn people off,
why do the vast majority of people choose to sail slow boats?

Why is the number of skiff types, in the UK and Australia, dropping at a
time when slow boats like Lasers are getting record fleets in some places?

Even the top selling board these days (Kona One) is slow in terms of top
speed.

Okay, you can't help yourself from throwing stones at others - but if you
expect anyone to believe your line, you'll have to give them some
evidence.

BTW, I spent the day getting the F16 type cat ready for a regatta at a skiff
club, so I'm not coming from just a slow boat perspective. But the one-
eyed view has done a hell of a lot of damage to a great part of the sport
(windsurfing) and we should try to make sure it doesn't infect the rest of
sailing.

Please, show us some evidence for your views. If you can't find objective
evidence, maybe you are the one who is writing rubbish?




Posted By: Teamvmg
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 1:32pm

At the end of the race, Dave Campbell-James held up the results on a board at the back of the committee boat. DEN was listed as a finisher. Surely if the change of boat had not been registered properly, DEN would have been listed as DNS as the PRO would not have known who the hell was on his course in the CRO boat.

I was beginning to think that Olympic sailing was doomed until this mental race got going - well done to all the sailors for saving our sport from dullness beyond belief [In the perception of joe public]



Posted By: mossman
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 1:55pm

Chris 249, I think we need to be careful about the distinction between watching a sport and doing a sport.

I can't help thinking that if a non-sailor watched the 49er medal race, thought 'that looks fun', went on the internet and bought a 49er today, he may regret it. Hopefully, they will have gone 'that looks fun, should we have a sailing holiday next year' and as a result start out in something a bit more manageable.

Personally I really enjoyed the spectacle of the 49er race, although I can recognise that it probably was a bit of a lottery (did anyone manage to get round the course without capsizing?). It certainly made me stop playing with my Lego until after the race, when I made a model of a 49er which immediately capsized in the bath.



Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 2:20pm

Regardless of the final result and actual quality of racing,  this must rank as some of the best sailing we have seen on TV,  we had thrills, spills,  drama,  and action,  all the elements that make for great TV.  Even the non sailing members of the family were gripped

Hope the Danes win,  they certainly deserve to,  but hard to see how they can within the rules,  and as they say 'Rules are Rules'



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Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er
race was more of a lottery than the damn drifters... The number of
medals that changed hands in the last gybe/bear away to the line was
phenomenal. I thought they would have looked better on the box than
they did. Disappointing


 


Jim, I greatly respect you, but this is just utter rubbish.  If we ever want
sailing to be watched by non sailors, this is exactly what they will wat to
see.  Fast boats in challenging conditions.


Will this race make the "general news" - maybe, will it be on the
hilights tonight.


YES....


Perhaps we need two olympic regattas


1, Slow boring boats drifting around the course that will inspire no-
one except some sailors


2, Fast exciting boats which make the general public go "Wow" that
looks wild and challenging, I'd like to try that....



Would you mind a bit less prejudice?

Can you show us evidence that slow boats turn people off the sport?

Can you show us evidence that fast boats turn people onto the sport?

Once again, if fast boats turn people on and slow boats turn people off,
why do the vast majority of people choose to sail slow boats?

Why is the number of skiff types, in the UK and Australia, dropping at a
time when slow boats like Lasers are getting record fleets in some places?

Even the top selling board these days (Kona One) is slow in terms of top
speed.

Okay, you can't help yourself from throwing stones at others - but if you
expect anyone to believe your line, you'll have to give them some
evidence.

BTW, I spent the day getting the F16 type cat ready for a regatta at a skiff
club, so I'm not coming from just a slow boat perspective. But the one-
eyed view has done a hell of a lot of damage to a great part of the sport
(windsurfing) and we should try to make sure it doesn't infect the rest of
sailing.

Please, show us some evidence for your views. If you can't find objective
evidence, maybe you are the one who is writing rubbish?


 

Chris,

That fact my 7 year old son went off to play with his lego as Ben sailed around the course.

 

he was glued to the screen whith the 49ers and all the sailing he's seen he has been asking "where are the 49ers and the Tornado's"

Every time A tornado appeared on the first Star race he instantly started watching it, same when the 49ers were on other courses.

However he is the son of a cat sailor and Skiff liker.  But it shows what we need to keep the kids happy.

My mates who drive and race cars have a similar opinion.  They will watch the Skiff DVD's when at my house, they will comment on it looks fun and challenging.  Mate phoned me up last week to talk about a race car project and commented that all the sailing had been boring except the small snippits of the T he had seen. 

My parents are sailors, they watched Ben for a while and then went in the garden when it was certain he's won.  Tehy came back and whatched the whole 49er race.

Only anicdotal evidence, but these are the sorts of people we need to attract if we want it to be seen as something that should be in the ollies and an interesting sport to watch.

If we want people to take part, we need to make people interested in the sport first.  Many of my mates have seen sailing as fat gits in boats drinking G+T's; the wind in china has not helped, they all ask "what's the challenge in sailing in 4 kts of wind".  We KNOW it's difficult, but it does not LOOK difficult.  Sailing fast boats looks difficult because people think sailing fast is harder than sailing slow.

As people has said in advertsing - the facts do not matter, it's perception.....

 

 

As for getting more people to sail, we generally have a declining sport, we need to entice people to sail, how do we do that.  Opinions differ, by I believe it needs to look good, and IMO, slow boats don't LOOK good, however good the racing is. 

Would people watch F1 if they went around at 20 miles an hour and never crashed?  Nope, they would watch Touring cars that do crash.  Would they watch Bike racing if they were doing 20mph and not leaning over in the corners nope.

If I can summarise, My view is we need sailing to be seen as a "good sport to watch" that will then entice people to start, or even try sailing. 

I THINK your view is that this will not work and we just need to somehow get more people sailing.

 

My son is still talking about the 49er race this moring, and the first thing he said when we got to my parents was "did you watch the 49ers?", he said the same thing at the party I just took him to.

 

My next problem is how do I pursuade him to sail a Catamaran instead of a 29er.........

 

 



-------------
F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: allanorton
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 4:54pm

Originally posted by Roy Race

Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery than
the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in the last
gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal.

I thought they would have looked better on the box than they did.
Disappointing


I agree. I thought it was a bit silly and a poor advert for the sport. I hate to
say it, but GRF could be right. It didn't look stupidly windy, but the best 49er
sailors in the world couldn't get round the course. I bet a well sailed 420
would have won that race on the water.

Totally agree also, non sailors will look at olympic 49ers as a joke event.  "When there's no wind they look boring, when they get some wind they can't stay in them!"

I doubt whether any non sailors watch olympic sailing any way, as there are other events going on which they can understand and see whose winning.  As a sailor, I couldn't see who was leading that race, perhaps the countries flags should also be shown on the bottom of the hull, or on the centre boards for the 49ers!

Seriously, I would rather see another class used, where 35-40 countries are represented and where the so-called best sailors in the world don't look like beginners.  I want to see racing, not a demolision derby!



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 4:54pm

I thought the race made the most gripping TV I have seen for some time ... if they strip the Danish of their medal I will be most sad about that.

I think that was a classic example of people feeling the preasure of Olympic glory beckoning ... what a race, I was exhausted just watching it.



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Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 5:06pm
you will not get another class with 35-40 boats, ISAF sets the limits on the number of competitors in each class under direction from IOC and thus the size of fleets we had at this years games are size they will always be and picking another class whaever it is will not change that, something more fundamental needs to change if we are to get more 'big' fleets competing. 

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 5:43pm

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

Regardless of the final result and actual quality of racing,  this must rank as some of the best sailing we have seen on TV,  we had thrills, spills,  drama,  and action,  all the elements that make for great TV.  Even the non sailing members of the family were gripped

Don't agree. I found the Finn and Yngling finals much more exciting. Once the 49er race disintegrated into chaos my interest waned. So you've got a screenful of heaving grey sea with one capsized boat  and no other boats in sight. Is that really that interesting?

What was also strange was that the 49ers did not actually appear all that fast downwind. I'm aware this was perception not reality - nevertheless I was expecting a spectacle that didn't come over on TV. By contrast when the 49ers were racing in F2/3 on day 1 they did look fast, by virtue of having other boats in close proximity.

For anybody who's still interested, it looks like the Yngling Bronze has been awarded to France instead of Greece, following a protest and redress (to be confirmed). It seems odd to have held the medal ceremonies before the protests were completed. 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery than the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in the last gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal. I thought they would have looked better on the box than they did. Disappointing

Jim, I greatly respect you, but this is just utter rubbish.  If we ever want sailing to be watched by non sailors, this is exactly what they will wat to see.  Fast boats in challenging conditions.

So what do you disagree with? That it was something of a lottery depending on how the gusts hit?
I've been in something of that that situation: narrow gate, extreme conditions, not really being able to pick your gybe, and to my way of thinking it is a bit of a lottery. Full marks for drama, and yes I wasn't able to sit still when the Aussie guys hit the piss and lost the medal, but is it really a good thing that the whole result of 4 years campaigning should come down to who gets lucky on the last gybes?

Or are you disagreeing with me when I say that I thought they'd look better on the box than they did? How do you know how good I thought they'd look to tell me I'm wrong when I say I was disappointed?
We were discussing it over lunch at my sailing club and I was by no means the only one who felt that you had to understand what was going on to appreciate how on the edge the boats are and that the sense of it really didn't come over. Unless you've tried the sketchy game of bearing away from the windward mark in big breeze and waves do you really understand why they were being so lairy and taking the marks so wide?

18 footer racing tended to produce a bit better film, but of course the camera boats could be close enough to really get in the way of the racers... not an option at the games really. The long lenses (and all the rain) took a lot of the drama out for me, but what do you do? And my oath it was seriously windy out there, but you really didn't get the sense of that either...

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what comments I get at work on Monday and who makes comments about which race... But personally I'm not particularly bothered whether sailing is watched by non sailors or not.


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 6:09pm

Originally posted by JimC

But personally I'm not particularly bothered whther sailing is watched by non sailors or not.

In principal, me neither. However it seems that's a necessary condition for sailing continuing as an Olympic sport.



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

In principal, me neither. However it seems that's a necessary condition for sailing continuing as an Olympic sport.

That seems to be a myth. Of course the IOC regularly changes its mind about what factors are important and what aren't for a sport to be in the games, but TV coverage is not that high on the list at the moment. It was about 8 years ago, but that's history. A couple of sports with pretty good TV ratings are or have been on the chop list.

Sailing has a lot of pluses. Its got a long Olympic history, its relatively cheap to put on (no stadium, no pool, no lake, no artficial hills), the legacy facilities are relatively useful (Qingdao was probably chosen because that was where the Chinese wanted a former Olympic marina and facilities: nothing to do with its merits as a venue) and a whole bunch of other factors.


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd


For anybody who's still interested, it looks like the Yngling Bronze has been awarded to France instead of Greece, following a protest and redress (to be confirmed). It seems odd to have held the medal ceremonies before the protests were completed. 


Nah - they've update the protest decisions and the overalls on the http://www.sailing.org/olympics/resultscentre.php?raceid=110 - ISAF site to include the redress for the frenchies and a DSQ for AUS still leaves the Greeks in Bronze.



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 6:36pm
You're right, I got befuddled by the double points.


Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 6:53pm

Originally posted by Roy Race

I agree. I thought it was a bit silly and a poor advert for the sport. I hate to
say it, but GRF could be right. It didn't look stupidly windy, but the best 49er
sailors in the world couldn't get round the course. I bet a well sailed 420
would have won that race on the water.

I think, to non-sailors, the drifters would have been a worse advertisement. The sailing in the 49er race may have got a bit lary and daft, but purely as a sporting story, you couldn't have made up that drama better.

However, I'm really hoping the 470s get a similar breeze - I reckon they will make an even better spectacle.



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Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 6:57pm
I think the Brazilians had the idea costing in under genoa....
Ultimately I think it was the waves rather than the wind that ultimately caused all the trouble.


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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 7:02pm
dam i missed it, had to race.

anyone know if you can watch it again? does bbc iplayer do it?


Posted By: Tessa
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 7:05pm

Originally posted by JimC

We were discussing it over lunch at my sailing club and I was by no means the only one who felt that you had to understand what was going on to appreciate how on the edge the boats are and that the sense of it really didn't come over. Unless you've tried the sketchy game of bearing away from the windward mark in big breeze and waves do you really understand why they were being so lairy and taking the marks so wide?

The Danes were both trapezing into the finish but I saw others with the crew praying in the middle of the boat.

Yes the 49er race had us on the edge of our seats, both me and the 29er youngster in the same room. I have sailed in those conditions in a properly classic sort of dinghy, and I still think some of the leeward mark roundings were taken far too wide, not that it matttered as staying upright seemeed to be more important.

I have just watched the evening sailing program and it seems to me now that the wind varied quite a lot from one medal race to another and we didn't get many figures re the wind strength.

I do hope the Danes hang on to Gold - maybe they would win simply on the fewest capsizes?

Tessa

 



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 7:27pm

Originally posted by JimC

That seems to be a myth. Of course the IOC regularly changes its mind about what factors are important and what aren't for a sport to be in the games, but TV coverage is not that high on the list at the moment.

TV appeal was certainly on the recent list of desiderata that the IOC presented to the ISAF in relation to class selection. The fact that TV-friendly sports are being deselected doesn't imply that TV appeal is irrelevant; they are being dropped for other reasons.

TV rights are how the IOC makes much of its money. It's as simple as that.

 



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 7:44pm
Well, the BBC obviously only care about medals, not exciting pics, as there was no mention of the 49ers at all just now on the highlights. Lets face it, the whole country went mad about bowling on ice with brooms at the last winter games because it was the only thing the brits could do. What the sport is seems not to matter, but being good at it and having media friendly faces seems to be what matters, so each country follows the sports they are good at. 

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 7:49pm

But the question still remains....

How did the jury rule?



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When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss

Crew on 505 8780



Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 7:56pm
Well I thought the 49er race was bonkers but I was up shouting at the TV- great drama. Get it up on You Tube! In the spirit of sportsmanship I hope the Danes get it.

As I have said on my other posts on the olympics - the TV coverage leaves a lot to be desired - and it isn't easy - especially in those conditions however I am sure that a director who had done some dinghy racing could have made a better fist of it. How windy was it (km/h - what happened to the Beaufort scale?) where were the boats - GPS is OK as long as it is give some perspective on the course.






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Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Contender 541

But the question still remains....

How did the jury rule?



Protest adjourned http://www.sailing.org/olympics/news/24760.php - to Monday..

Looks like this is where John Doerr earns his keep...still I can't think of anyone I'd rather have chairing the jury for that decision...


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Well, the BBC obviously only care about medals, not exciting pics, as there was no mention of the 49ers at all just now on the highlights. Lets face it, the whole country went mad about bowling on ice with brooms at the last winter games because it was the only thing the brits could do. What the sport is seems not to matter, but being good at it and having media friendly faces seems to be what matters, so each country follows the sports they are good at. 


I agree - in fact there seemed to be more footage of 'our guys' competiton in the pommel horse than the winning of 2 golds by the sailors...pathetic


Posted By: simon hiscocks
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 8:25pm
Hi,

Thought I might give a bit of inside information about the 49ers and the
race today!

Firstly, All the guys out there are between about 6 - 10 kg below
optimum weight.

Now when you sail that much below weight the handling gets a lot
harder, but more importantly the range of angles you can sail down wind
get a lot narrower.

This then reduces your options on how to avoid the worst waves.

Which means that you dont avoid them and down the mine you go!!!

They dont look like they are going very fast down wind, and are probably
faster in the 10 - 14 knot range, as they are desperately trying to slow
down, if you let the boat rip at full speed you start to rapidly overtake
waves, launch off the top of them and come to a rapid and gear breaking
nose dive. ( see pics of boats stern to the air )

So they are going down wind at wave speed or slightly faster, trying to
ease your way past the waves and if you can arround them. The skill is to
look a few waves in front to try and pick your way through.

To get back to the crew weight, this effects your ability to find your way
through the waves, the boat loads up earlier etc etc. This is nothing new
to any of the sailors out there they have all seen at events this year and in
training, but the gains in the light out weigh the one windy race.

So you get majority of time bobbing about and then when there is some
wind its a crash and fall over session. Dont blame the boats or the
sailors. Its the choice of venue which is to blame.

Having said that if the games had been in weymouth this last week at
least 3 days would have been lost to too much wind!!!

The sea conditions in Qingdao when it gets windy are pretty unusual,
every windy race there has been there has seen the same results!

Cleary the Danes deserved to win that event, however preserving your
gear and equipment is all part of the skill set required to win Gold
medals, if they are denied there win it is not due to the protest comittee
but to there own misjudgment and equipment maintenance.

If there hull has been damaged, which as mentioned is a common failiure
when the mast falls down then I cannot see why they should not be
allowed to replace it in order to compete, why they had to use the CRO
sails as well remains a question.

Should they be dsq and loose the Gold medal it could be argued that the
medal race format has back fired on ISAF, or may be it did exactly what it
is inteded to do and create drama!



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 8:36pm
Simon, you don't find that the heavier boys go down the mine faster in the 49er then? It seems to be a feature of certain shorter classes that the more lard there is on board the faster the bow goes down.


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 8:49pm
Official wind speed was 14knots, but seems to have conked out after the first sausage.

http://www.sailing.org/olympics/resultscentre.php?raceid=126

Ynglings and Finns were registered as 16knots or thereabouts.


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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 8:56pm

Simon, many thanks for your post and explanation - it's great to have such an informed opinion as to why the conditions caused so many problems.

The medal race certainly caused drama! The footage and photos tell the story.

I'm hoping the Danes get to keep gold - as long as they filed a request for change of equipment as soon as they got ashore. From what I've heard the mainsail was ripped when the mast came down so they couldn't have kept that from their boat.



Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by ColH


However, I'm really hoping the 470s get a similar breeze - I reckon they will
make an even better spectacle.


Me too. The 470s would have ripped up the course today. We'd have seen
some world class sailing action rather than loads of capsising. Fingers
crossed.


Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 9:42pm
Incidentally, if you want an idea of how the general public perceives sailing,
then take a look at the Sun's website. The report of Man Utd 1-1 Newcastle
has 70 comments and the report of Ben Ainslie's Gold medal has 1 comment.
The general public unfortunately doesn't give a sh*t.


Posted By: Hangel
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 9:44pm

Well now its time to find out how far the rule 2 streches....

becurse Sportsmanship is what we have seen from the sailors, but how does it apply to a race commity...

It ist clearly statet that it is a fundamental rule, and therefore a commity with guts could hang a decition on that rule alone....even if other rules are broken or partly broken....

And OK i´m DanichWink

 



Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:16pm
I really wouldn't like to be on this protest committee. Nothing like this has
happened before at this level, so it's new ground. I'd have thought that it
would be pretty straightforward to find against the Danes, but it's quite
interesting that the committee have decided to re-convene tomorrow,
stating that the case is complicated. Sounds like this could go either way.

I think that for certain, this has been a worst-case scenario for the medal
race format, which has blown up in the faces of those who championed it.


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by Hangel

Well now its time to find out how far the rule 2 streches....

becurse Sportsmanship is what we have seen from the sailors, but how does it apply to a race commity...

It ist clearly statet that it is a fundamental rule, and therefore a commity with guts could hang a decition on that rule alone....even if other rules are broken or partly broken....

And OK i´m DanichWink

 

We'll see; My son wants the Danes to win; he now wants a 49er for Christmas!  I was hopng he would want a Tornado.

 

He's 7.



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F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:19pm

Originally posted by Roy Race

I really wouldn't like to be on this protest committee. Nothing like this has
happened before at this level, so it's new ground. I'd have thought that it
would be pretty straightforward to find against the Danes, but it's quite
interesting that the committee have decided to re-convene tomorrow,
stating that the case is complicated. Sounds like this could go either way.

I think that for certain, this has been a worst-case scenario for the medal
race format, which has blown up in the faces of those who championed it.

 

Totally agree; I can see the ctte pawing over the Danish boat to see if it was damaged "enough" to justify borrowing another boat; then were the correct procedures followed, and correct paperwork filed.

 

I can see there boing uproar either way.

 

Edit to add.  What ever happens, if I was at 2012, I would insist on having a second boat available, fully rigged, with the correct stickers on for the medal race as it is non-discardable. 

If it's non-discardable, surely you should be on the line to try and win it.

 

But, part of sailing is preserving the boat to finish the race.

 

If it goes one way people will get tow's to the start and get released 15 seconds before the prep gun goes if it's windy, if it goes the other, everyone will bring spare boats.   

 



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F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:34pm

Originally posted by Roy Race

Incidentally, if you want an idea of how the general public perceives sailing,
then take a look at the Sun's website. The report of Man Utd 1-1 Newcastle
has 70 comments and the report of Ben Ainslie's Gold medal has 1 comment.
The general public unfortunately doesn't give a sh*t.

When the Sun becomes the barometer for the whole of the UK we are in big trouble.

The race was great drama; the sea state was the big challenge and we saw the lead change hands many times ... great TV.

Hope the Danes hang on to their gold ...



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Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 17 Aug 08 at 10:51pm

Sorry to my eyes the 49's looked bad in the light wind and were a joke in the big seas today and should they be racing boats that only work in a narrow range of conditions

There are any number of less extreme boats that would make for better racing, and thus better TV veiwing in a full range of conditions...

As a Musto skiff 29er sailor I clearly like my modern fast boats but i dont think the 49er has made for the best sailing at this olympics.

 



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 6:08am

According to Andy Rice, the Danes keep their medal. Decision not yet on the ISAF site.

There's wind today (apparently decreasing) and sailing in progress but no BBC coverage.



Posted By: allanorton
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 6:14am
The 470's medal race looks much more impressive to me, & lets be honest non sailors don't watch any of the sailing.


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 7:37am
http://sailjuice.squarespace.com//home/2008/8/18/danish-49ers-get-their-fairy-tale-ending.html - Link to Andy's story on the desicion

It does seem common-sense has prevailed. Would anyone really want any other result?


Posted By: laserboy404
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 7:47am

Good Result

The Danes deserve it!



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Laser 159392
Javelin 53


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 7:51am
I agree that the Danes deserve the Gold, they sailed the best series, but It'll be interesting to read that jury decision - unless there is boat damage then I don't really understand how they can score anything other than DNS in the medal race.

but as ESP have accepted the results I think that'll be it, and full marks to the Spanish guys..



Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 8:05am

Full marks to all the 49er sailors and I'm so pleased the Danes have won gold. What a show they put on for us!



Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 8:44am
Excellent news.  I notice that it was the measurement committee, not any of the competitors, who lodged the protest.  Is anyone able to lodge a protest in a race, whether they are competing or not?  How closely involved do you need to be?

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http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 9:16am
Well done to the jury, very good decision but I have to say that I'm with G.R.F. on the 49er, 470 race far more like it!

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PeterV
Finn K197, Finn GBR564, Hunter Duette.
Warsash


Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 10:04am

Originally posted by PeterV

Well done to the jury, very good decision

Hmmmmmm.  I'm not convinced at all. Sure, it's the right decision from a feel-good "they deserved it" perspective, but the Danes didn't comply wth any of the rules.

You just can't borrow someone else's boat!!! It wasn't quarantined the night before, no camera, wrong stickers on the sail, the list goes on.  I think the race officer should have just ignored them in his results. He will have been expecting DEN on the racecourse but their boat didn't start the race. I'm amazed the PC have come up with this decision and am interested to see what repercussions it will have because I'm sure there will be some.



Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 10:27am

Had it been a Finn of Star I would have said that the result should not count. In those classes the competitors chose the equipment they want and develop masts and sails that are as light as possible.  Therefore if they break, you could argue they have pushed the limits too far and got what the deserved.  However, the 49er is a SMOD.  You have no control over the quality of the equipment, or its suitability for the conditions.  You just get what you are given.  It hardly seems fair that the sailor should be punished for equipment failure that was outside his control.  Yes, you could argue that they should have had a spare mast, sails, mast gate, hull, etc etc, but that seems to be contray to the one-design ethos.  Surely one-design classes are about keeping costs down,  so to require you to own two boats to be competitive is senseless.  I can not see that the Danes gained any advantage using the Croatian boat, except perhaps the lack of camera on the back.  But in the circumstances (they only had to finish to win, and the wind was so strong that the weight of the camera had negligable effect on performance) I think the jury has made the right call.

I don't think this sets a blanket precedence.  As I said earlier if the class, weather conditions or importance of the race were different, the ruling may have been too.  Its also worth noting that none of the competitors lodged a protest. 



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http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 10:34am
Originally posted by Chew my RS

Had it been a Finn of Star I would have said that the result should not count. In those classes the competitors chose the equipment they want and develop masts and sails that are as light as possible.  Therefore if they break, you could argue they have pushed the limits too far and got what the deserved.  However, the 49er is a SMOD.  You have no control over the quality of the equipment, or its suitability for the conditions.  You just get what you are given.  It hardly seems fair that the sailor should be punished for equipment failure that was outside his control.  Yes, you could argue that they should have had a spare mast, sails, mast gate, hull, etc etc, but that seems to be contray to the one-design ethos.  Surely one-design classes are about keeping costs down,  so to require you to own two boats to be competitive is senseless. 



I would agree with your argument if it was 'boats provided' but I'm pretty certain iin the 9er it's not...

Do you really think that sailors in SMOD olympic classes only have one boat?

As for masts..well I recollect that 'stevie and ben' were talking somewhere about saving their 'best' mast for Qingdao..and many a laser sailor has tested various masts to find the 'right one'







Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 10:46am

The 49ers are owners boats, but the Lasers are provided.  If Goodies mast falls down tomorrow (pre-start, when he isn't ragging it) is that his fault?  There are shades of grey.  In the Finn, if, say, Ben's mast fell down, that would be his fault and he should have no comeback.  He should have used a stronger mast.  In the Laser, Goody would rightly be peeved and doubtless would seek redress.  The 49er is somewhere in the middle.  The boat wasn't supplied, but every boat is nominally identical within manufacturing tolerance, so again, it it their fault if the equipment is sub-standard.  If the IOC/ISAF are going to force equipment on sailors, it is their responsibilty to ensure it is fit for purpose.  Whilst that particular 49er mast was not forced on the Danes, every 49er mast is supposed to be the same, so (in theory) they couldn't have selected a better one if they'd wanted to.  Requiring every team to have a spare (two spare, three spare?) boats at £10k+ is against the Olympic spirit, even if, in reality, some wealthy teams already do this. 



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http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 11:20am

Given where the mast failed, ie: about 50cm down from the lower spreaders, it is highly unlikely to be a manufacturing defect as there are not fittings there, unless there is a problem with the aluminium extrusion.  My guess is that there was not enough rig tension and as the crew weight bounced around in the chop the shock load of two guys on the trapeeze would have bent the mast.  If it had gone at the join or the hounds, or the gooseneck then you could start thinking about the engineering. 

well the 49ers will have all carbon masts for 2012 as requested by the class association, so we will have to see what happenes in 4 years time



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Teamvmg
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 11:32am

You have to have the right sail insignia in a medal race to be so that the other competitors know who is who and who to cover/watch.

Its like boats pretending that their electrics have gone so that they do no have to report in their positions on a trans-atlantic race, when they know where everyone else is in the fleet.



Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 11:43am
The Danes have been confirmed as gold medalists by the Jury.

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: sailorbob
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 11:48am
Cut out the whingeing guys. This coverage has done more for the image of sailing than anything that`s gone before.It wasn`t classic sailing, but we can leave that to Ben.We saw excitement and drama and sportsmanship in spades. If the danes sought permission at the earliest opportunity (even if it was after the race) there shouldn`t be a problem. If the race committee can`t see that they need to grow up.


Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 11:49am

Teamvmg - I take your point, but in this particular race I think the Danes could afford to come last and still win, so no amount of covering would change the result.

Phil - It may not be a defective mast in that it may not be different to any of the others, but two normal sized guys went sailing in conditions considered suitable by the race committee and their mast broke. Do the manufacturers recommend a minimum rig tension? Do they offer a warantee that is only honoured if the mast is used within certain limits? Is bouncing around not allowed? A mast should be able to withstand the vims and vigours of racing. It didn't. As the competitors did not have the choice of using another mast manufacturer or designer, it can not be their fault that it broke if they weren't abusing it. As top level sailors I'm fairly sure they would only use their mast in a way they considered necessary for winning races, no mucking about.



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http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: kanga
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by JimC

Simon, you don't find that the heavier boys go down the mine faster in the 49er then? It seems to be a feature of certain shorter classes that the more lard there is on board the faster the bow goes down.


Only if your sat on the bow downwind!


Posted By: kanga
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 12:33pm
Also, for those who are against the Danes winning - food fo thought:

Surely its the olympic spirit that keeps the competition alive - what a fantastic story - they were at such a huge disadvantage - I think we all thought it was over for them.

They sailed all teh way in, they rigged an entire new boat and sailed all the way back out-  knackered probably and crossed the startline, made it round the course and caught up enough to be in gold medal position - that, until now, I would've written off as impossible.

Its a fairytale ending to a fantastic day - and when you spend all your time trianing in a boat, to jump into another, customised fora different crew - well, that makes life very tricky too.

Welldone to them and I am glad the medal wasn't tarnished by a protest in the shape of bad sportsmanship.


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 12:44pm
Protest http://www.sailing.org/olympics/24775.php - decision in full

As summised earlier in this thread - apparently the mast step had gone, which scuppered their abillity to use their boat...


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 1:25pm
And just when we thought it was all over...
http://www.sailing.org/olympics/racing/decisions.php -
Protest 75 49ers ITA / ES vs. Race Committee, DEN & RC requested to attend.

 


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Scooby_simon


Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery
than the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in
the last gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal. I thought they
would have looked better on the box than they did.
Disappointing


 


Jim, I greatly respect you, but this is just utter rubbish.  If we ever want
sailing to be watched by non sailors, this is exactly what they will wat to
see.  Fast boats in challenging conditions.


Will this race make the "general news" - maybe, will it be on the
hilights tonight.


YES....


Perhaps we need two olympic regattas


1, Slow boring boats drifting around the course that will inspire no-
one except some sailors


2, Fast exciting boats which make the general public go "Wow" that
looks wild and challenging, I'd like to try that....


Would you mind a bit less prejudice? Can you show us
evidence that slow boats turn people off the sport? Can you show us
evidence that fast boats turn people onto the sport? Once again, if fast
boats turn people on and slow boats turn people off, why do the vast
majority of people choose to sail slow boats? Why is the number of skiff
types, in the UK and Australia, dropping at a time when slow boats like
Lasers are getting record fleets in some places? Even the top selling
board these days (Kona One) is slow in terms of top speed. Okay, you
can't help yourself from throwing stones at others - but if you expect
anyone to believe your line, you'll have to give them some evidence. BTW,
I spent the day getting the F16 type cat ready for a regatta at a skiff club,
so I'm not coming from just a slow boat perspective. But the one- eyed
view has done a hell of a lot of damage to a great part of the sport
(windsurfing) and we should try to make sure it doesn't infect the rest of
sailing. Please, show us some evidence for your views. If you can't find
objective evidence, maybe you are the one who is writing rubbish?


 


Chris,


That fact my 7 year old son went off to play with his lego as Ben sailed
around the course.


 


he was glued to the screen whith the 49ers and all the sailing he's seen
he has been asking "where are the 49ers and the Tornado's"


Every time A tornado appeared on the first Star race he instantly started
watching it, same when the 49ers were on other courses.


However he is the son of a cat sailor and Skiff liker.  But it shows what
we need to keep the kids happy.


My mates who drive and race cars have a similar opinion.  They will
watch the Skiff DVD's when at my house, they will comment on it looks
fun and challenging.  Mate phoned me up last week to talk about a race
car project and commented that all the sailing had been boring except
the small snippits of the T he had seen. 


My parents are sailors, they watched Ben for a while and then went in
the garden when it was certain he's won.  Tehy came back and whatched
the whole 49er race.


Only anicdotal evidence, but these are the sorts of people we need to
attract if we want it to be seen as something that should be in the ollies
and an interesting sport to watch.


If we want people to take part, we need to make people interested in
the sport first.  Many of my mates have seen sailing as fat gits in boats
drinking G+T's; the wind in china has not helped, they all ask "what's the
challenge in sailing in 4 kts of wind".  We KNOW it's difficult, but it does
not LOOK difficult.  Sailing fast boats looks difficult because people think
sailing fast is harder than sailing slow.


As people has said in advertsing - the facts do not matter, it's
perception.....


 


 


As for getting more people to sail, we generally have a declining sport,
we need to entice people to sail, how do we do that.  Opinions differ, by I
believe it needs to look good, and IMO, slow boats don't LOOK good,
however good the racing is. 


Would people watch F1 if they went around at 20 miles an hour and
never crashed?  Nope, they would watch Touring cars that do crash. 
Would they watch Bike racing if they were doing 20mph and not leaning
over in the corners nope.


If I can summarise, My view is we need sailing to be seen as a "good
sport to watch" that will then entice people to start, or even try sailing. 


I THINK your view is that this will not work and we just need to
somehow get more people sailing.


 


My son is still talking about the 49er race this moring, and the first
thing he said when we got to my parents was "did you watch the 49ers?",
he said the same thing at the party I just took him to.


 


My next problem is how do I pursuade him to sail a Catamaran instead
of a 29er.........


 


 



Yep, my view is that fast boats crashing is not the only, or best, way to
sell the sport.

The car racing analogy is flawed, IMHO, because some of the world's
biggest cpmpanies spend vast sums (although they are tiny to suchj
massive companies) on motorsport yet it attracts no more participants
than sailing.

Apocryphal tales are easy to counter - your kids may have got into
watching 49ers, my stepkids first sailed with a national Tornado champ,
one of them did two nationals on an F16 type cat. Their cousins came in
from a fast-boat background, then went into fairly quick junior dinghies
with success at club level. None of them sail boats now, despite all
coming from families with Tornado experience.

So while we could trade stories, it won't get as far and is perhaps not a
good basis for cries of "rubbish".

Interestingly, one of the 49er's creators (Peter Johnson of J-Boat fame,
whose OD 14 was arguably the first SMOD skiff type) commissioned a
large survey into why people don't sail small boats. North Sails were
involved too.

Performance was NOT an issue - people did not think sailing was boring,
they thought it was expensive, elitist and difficult. Peter now sells carbon
cats, but he still believes in the truth of what the survey revealed.


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by Chris 249

Originally posted by Scooby_simon


Originally posted by JimC

I dunno, I reckon that 49er race was more of a lottery
than the damn drifters... The number of medals that changed hands in
the last gybe/bear away to the line was phenomenal. I thought they
would have looked better on the box than they did.
Disappointing


 


Jim, I greatly respect you, but this is just utter rubbish.  If we ever want
sailing to be watched by non sailors, this is exactly what they will wat to
see.  Fast boats in challenging conditions.


Will this race make the "general news" - maybe, will it be on the
hilights tonight.


YES....


Perhaps we need two olympic regattas


1, Slow boring boats drifting around the course that will inspire no-
one except some sailors


2, Fast exciting boats which make the general public go "Wow" that
looks wild and challenging, I'd like to try that....


Would you mind a bit less prejudice? Can you show us
evidence that slow boats turn people off the sport? Can you show us
evidence that fast boats turn people onto the sport? Once again, if fast
boats turn people on and slow boats turn people off, why do the vast
majority of people choose to sail slow boats? Why is the number of skiff
types, in the UK and Australia, dropping at a time when slow boats like
Lasers are getting record fleets in some places? Even the top selling
board these days (Kona One) is slow in terms of top speed. Okay, you
can't help yourself from throwing stones at others - but if you expect
anyone to believe your line, you'll have to give them some evidence. BTW,
I spent the day getting the F16 type cat ready for a regatta at a skiff club,
so I'm not coming from just a slow boat perspective. But the one- eyed
view has done a hell of a lot of damage to a great part of the sport
(windsurfing) and we should try to make sure it doesn't infect the rest of
sailing. Please, show us some evidence for your views. If you can't find
objective evidence, maybe you are the one who is writing rubbish?


 


Chris,


That fact my 7 year old son went off to play with his lego as Ben sailed
around the course.


 


he was glued to the screen whith the 49ers and all the sailing he's seen
he has been asking "where are the 49ers and the Tornado's"


Every time A tornado appeared on the first Star race he instantly started
watching it, same when the 49ers were on other courses.


However he is the son of a cat sailor and Skiff liker.  But it shows what
we need to keep the kids happy.


My mates who drive and race cars have a similar opinion.  They will
watch the Skiff DVD's when at my house, they will comment on it looks
fun and challenging.  Mate phoned me up last week to talk about a race
car project and commented that all the sailing had been boring except
the small snippits of the T he had seen. 


My parents are sailors, they watched Ben for a while and then went in
the garden when it was certain he's won.  Tehy came back and whatched
the whole 49er race.


Only anicdotal evidence, but these are the sorts of people we need to
attract if we want it to be seen as something that should be in the ollies
and an interesting sport to watch.


If we want people to take part, we need to make people interested in
the sport first.  Many of my mates have seen sailing as fat gits in boats
drinking G+T's; the wind in china has not helped, they all ask "what's the
challenge in sailing in 4 kts of wind".  We KNOW it's difficult, but it does
not LOOK difficult.  Sailing fast boats looks difficult because people think
sailing fast is harder than sailing slow.


As people has said in advertsing - the facts do not matter, it's
perception.....


 


 


As for getting more people to sail, we generally have a declining sport,
we need to entice people to sail, how do we do that.  Opinions differ, by I
believe it needs to look good, and IMO, slow boats don't LOOK good,
however good the racing is. 


Would people watch F1 if they went around at 20 miles an hour and
never crashed?  Nope, they would watch Touring cars that do crash. 
Would they watch Bike racing if they were doing 20mph and not leaning
over in the corners nope.


If I can summarise, My view is we need sailing to be seen as a "good
sport to watch" that will then entice people to start, or even try sailing. 


I THINK your view is that this will not work and we just need to
somehow get more people sailing.


 


My son is still talking about the 49er race this moring, and the first
thing he said when we got to my parents was "did you watch the 49ers?",
he said the same thing at the party I just took him to.


 


My next problem is how do I pursuade him to sail a Catamaran instead
of a 29er.........


 


 



Yep, my view is that fast boats crashing is not the only, or best, way to
sell the sport.

The car racing analogy is flawed, IMHO, because some of the world's
biggest cpmpanies spend vast sums (although they are tiny to suchj
massive companies) on motorsport yet it attracts no more participants
than sailing.

Apocryphal tales are easy to counter - your kids may have got into
watching 49ers, my stepkids first sailed with a national Tornado champ,
one of them did two nationals on an F16 type cat. Their cousins came in
from a fast-boat background, then went into fairly quick junior dinghies
with success at club level. None of them sail boats now, despite all
coming from families with Tornado experience.

So while we could trade stories, it won't get as far and is perhaps not a
good basis for cries of "rubbish".

Interestingly, one of the 49er's creators (Peter Johnson of J-Boat fame,
whose OD 14 was arguably the first SMOD skiff type) commissioned a
large survey into why people don't sail small boats. North Sails were
involved too.

Performance was NOT an issue - people did not think sailing was boring,
they thought it was expensive, elitist and difficult. Peter now sells carbon
cats, but he still believes in the truth of what the survey revealed.

My son will have his first sail this summer on mf F16, I will also try and blag him a go on a 49er as well.

If he decides to sail (his Ski coach wants him to Ski race) he may crew for me for a while, but if/when he goes single handed he will start (if he want) down the RYA development route that starts in Mono's and then (Currently) they can split to 420's/29er's or Cats. 

He has been enticed ito sailing by being the son of a sailor and seeing the 49ers on TV;  Has the 49er race made any difference, Yes, I think so, he is even more keen on sailing. 

IMO the only way to get people interesting in sailing is to make it more appealing to TV, this means crash and burn. 

Of those people who watch it, perhaps 1% might think it was worth a try, and they will hopefully go to a sailing club of company that offers sailing holidays and sign up and have a try, we know they won't go out in a 49er or Tornado to start with, but they will remember what they watched of the 49er or Tornado and (Hopefully) want to progress to that.

How do you propose to attract people into sailing?

 

Edit to add, perhaps we should start another thread on this.....



-------------
F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: Laser 173312
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 2:17pm

I agree the "car racing analogy is flawed" as most people in developed countries use some sort of vehicle most days. F1 has a big following because cars are an everyday part of our lives. This is not the case with sailing boats. 

Although few people take up organised motorsport, most people will get in a Renault, Toyota, BMW or Honda on a regular basis and these companies use F1 to advertise and they will tell you how the computer in your Megane if closely related to the F1 car's.

 



Posted By: Roy Race
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 2:38pm

Originally posted by laser4000

And just when we thought it was all over...
http://www.sailing.org/olympics/racing/decisions.php -
Protest 75 49ers ITA / ES vs. Race Committee, DEN & RC requested to attend.
 

Uh oh!  



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 2:41pm

No-one is going to go out and buy a 49er because they watched that race; but that race may raise the profile or the sport and interest people in trying sailing.

Much more so that watching 470's creep along at 2 knots ...



-------------


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Roy Race

Originally posted by laser4000

And just when we thought it was all over...
http://www.sailing.org/olympics/racing/decisions.php -
Protest 75 49ers ITA / ES vs. Race Committee, DEN & RC requested to attend.
 

Uh oh!  



What I reckon's happened is that whilst the sailors were happy to accept the status quo, the "spanish or italian sparky" or his equivalent either decided himself or got the call from the 'chef de mission' to get back in the room... you've got to be a brave man to say 'no' to your paymaster especially as if it looks like the chances of gold in other fleets is limited..




Posted By: sailorbob
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 3:00pm
Looks as though the jury deserve a gold medal as well. (never thought I`d say that!) Just read the decision. Simple, logical common sense in the best interests of the sport of sailing. Well done John and his committee. It`s good to see that sailing has such robust regulations as many sports would have failed this test and allowed the situation to descend into farce.


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by sailorbob

Looks as though the jury deserve a gold medal as well. (never thought I`d say that!) Just read the decision. Simple, logical common sense in the best interests of the sport of sailing. Well done John and his committee. It`s good to see that sailing has such robust regulations as many sports would have failed this test and allowed the situation to descend into farce.


I think you've spoken to soon - check out protest no 75


Posted By: oz man
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 4:12pm

so many posts on this race i dont know who to wind up first.

i cant see why some of you guys think this was a bad advert for our sport fast,dramatic,full of incident,breakages, challenging conditions, the best sailors in the world finding it difficult what more could you ask for? so some of the half boats fell over. who ever said winning a gold medal was supposed to be easy. this race will not lower sailings profile any lower than the previous weeks driftathon.

scooby your boy wants a 49er for christmas that must be like getting stabbed through the heart. it could be worse though just think he could have watched the guys trotting about on horses in the dressarge and want horse ridding lesson. that would be awful!!!!!!!!!

 



Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 4:50pm
errrm, i cant find any of these protests or the information about them on the ISAF site. can someone point me in the right direction please.

-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by mike ellis

errrm, i cant find any of these protests or the information about them on the ISAF site. can someone point me in the right direction please.


Go back on page on this thread to my post at 12:44..

othewise go to the olympics section then protests and documents link on the lower left hand side...


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 5:03pm

My thoughts in no particular order...

I'm afraid that sailing has been a bit of an embarrasment as a spectator sport this time round.  Boring as hell for most of it and then carnage.  Joe Public simply won't understand it...and it's all down to a ridiculous venue.

I did enjoy watching the 49er race, but it was a shame that the conditions were such that it just turned into a destruction derby.  As a sailor myself I could tell how gnarly those conditions were and I was wincing at evey bear away, but for people who don't sail, or possibly don't sail skiffs, it was impossible to convey how tricky a 2 sail gybe was or how tricky it was to get a 9er to point downhill again after it has come up head to wind after a swim.  The format made a bunch of highly skilled elite sailors look amateurish in the eyes of your average footy fan, it would be the same as runners ploughing through every hurdle, weightlifters dropping every bar, horse riders demolishing a course or a track cycling event turning into a pile up with the winner being the first back on their bike.

In my mind if ever there was a case for the 49er to be developed or even replaced by a multi rigged boat that was it, and no I'm not talking 12 foot skiffs and four rigs.  So many regattas now seem to have silly winds at either end of the spectrum, not sure if this is perhaps a recent "climate change" thing or it's more historical.  After having raced skiffs for a while now I really do appreciate the fact that I can have fully powered up full bore racing in such a variety of conditions, I would really like to see this adopted for an Olympic class that is undeniably over-ragged when things get really breezy.  How hard would it be to have the ability to change down to a 29erXX rig for big breeze, and perhaps we would have seen some more enjoyable racing that would appeal more to your average bloke in the street?

As much as I enjoyed the race and think the Danes deserved it, trying to explain that the Danes who looked like Croats won because they overtook some unknown people swimming round their boat becasue they'd used the big flag sail going down the course when perhaps they should not have, even though normally they would when sailing in that direction but not the other direction of course, but of course it's all subject to the commitee decision because perhaps they should not have used that Croatian boat without checking first, even though yes of course they are all the same, is hardly the "more easy to understand format" that the whole "medal race" idea was supposed to bring to the masses is it!

Classes hammering downwind with suitable sail area for the conditions and the big flaggy sail crossing the line first is!



-------------
49er GBR340 "20KSB"
Sabre 27 "Summer Girl"
Foiling Moth GBR4093 "Beermoth"
1965 Flying 15 K797 "Braveheart"
Fireball GBR14110


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by oz man

so many posts on this race i dont know who to wind up first.

i cant see why some of you guys think this was a bad advert for our sport fast,dramatic,full of incident,breakages, challenging conditions, the best sailors in the world finding it difficult what more could you ask for? so some of the half boats fell over. who ever said winning a gold medal was supposed to be easy. this race will not lower sailings profile any lower than the previous weeks driftathon.

scooby your boy wants a 49er for christmas that must be like getting stabbed through the heart. it could be worse though just think he could have watched the guys trotting about on horses in the dressarge and want horse ridding lesson. that would be awful!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Oz, He's not BEEN on a Cat yet.  Hull flying might change his mind.

See you at Grafham for the Open in Oct?



-------------
F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 5:43pm

Originally posted by laser4000

Originally posted by mike ellis

errrm, i cant find any of these protests or the information about them on the ISAF site. can someone point me in the right direction please.


Go back on page on this thread to my post at 12:44..

othewise go to the olympics section then protests and documents link on the lower left hand side...

The ISAF site seems to be unable to load on my computer. it just doesn't work. It worked yesterday, it doesn't work today, maybe it will work tomorrow. thats windows for you.



-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: AndersDK
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 8:57pm

Originally posted by laser4000

And just when we thought it was all over...
http://www.sailing.org/olympics/racing/decisions.php -
Protest 75 49ers ITA / ES vs. Race Committee, DEN & RC requested to attend.

 

I guess the Italians are peeved, that they tactically didnt know that they sailed against the danes, but whats the problem for the spanish?

 



Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 18 Aug 08 at 9:08pm
HI Anders

I guess you're from Denmark?

See my post at 2:49 today - I reckon the sailors were lent on by the people paying their bills...

I'm not sure there was any tactical sailing to be had in a 49er in the conditions they experienced...


Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 19 Aug 08 at 8:37am
The Italians lose the protest, so the Danes keep the gold.

-------------
http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 19 Aug 08 at 10:34am
Originally posted by mike ellis

Originally posted by laser4000

Originally posted by mike ellis

errrm, i cant find any of these protests or the information about them on the ISAF site. can someone point me in the right direction please.


Go back on page on this thread to my post at 12:44..

othewise go to the olympics section then protests and documents link on the lower left hand side...

The ISAF site seems to be unable to load on my computer. it just doesn't work. It worked yesterday, it doesn't work today, maybe it will work tomorrow. thats windows for you.

and today it loaded first time!



-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 19 Aug 08 at 11:33am
It seems like the Spanish are taking this to the Court for Arbitration in Sport, having had their appeal turned down.  At least, that's how I understand it from a poster on the sailjuice site.

-------------
http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: Laser 173312
Date Posted: 19 Aug 08 at 11:55am

Originally posted by Chew my RS

It seems like the Spanish are taking this to the Court for Arbitration in Sport, having had their appeal turned down.  At least, that's how I understand it from a poster on the sailjuice site.

So the Spanish have learnt something from hosting the 32nd America's Cup, how to go to court and bore everyone.

 



Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 19 Aug 08 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by oz man

so many posts on this race i dont know who to wind
up first.


i cant see why some of you guys think this was a bad advert for our
sport fast,dramatic,full of incident,breakages, challenging conditions, the
best sailors in the world finding it difficult what more could you ask for?
so some of the half boats fell over. who ever said winning a gold medal
was supposed to be easy. this race will not lower sailings profile any
lower than the previous weeks driftathon.


scooby your boy wants a 49er for christmas that must be like getting
stabbed through the heart. it could be worse though just think he could
have watched the guys trotting about on horses in the dressarge and
want horse ridding lesson. that would be awful!!!!!!!!!


 




Peter Johnstone (of J/Boats fame) was one of the team that create the
49er; ask julian and he'll tell you how important tHe team was (very!).

After Peter introduced the SMOD skiff type to the world (with the OD 14),
he and a group including the world's biggest sailmaker (North) bought
the biggest dinghy builder in the world's biggest economy (Vanguard).

They then spend over 2 million US on marketing in 3 years. This included
a market survey that revealed (like others) that the average non-sailor
did NOT think dinghies were boring, but they DID think that they were
"too tippy, too complex, and too expensive".

So.....

The world's biggest sailmaker teamed with a guy from the family that
sells more racing yachts than anyone else AND who created the first
SMOD skiff type and played a big role in creating the 49er, and they paid
for the biggest marketing campaign in dinghies, and the result was that
they found that non-sailing people did NOT want to go crashing in a skiff
type.

Based on that, they made a boat that (until a corporate takeover) out-
sold all other dinghies in the world.

Put your hand up anyone who reckons they know more about selling
sailing than North Sails or the creators of the J/24, J/22, J/105, J/35, etc.
BTW, the Johnstones also sold Laser, Windsurfer and Sunfish at their
peak.

Interestingly, the world's biggest yacht builders and the biggest dinghy
builders don't get into the crash-and-burn stuff.

As far as the "show it crashing and they will come" argument - that's what
windsurfing thought, and sales are allegedly 8% as big as they were
before windsurfing got into that mindset.

Once again, the fascinating thing is that what no one from the "crashes
bring
new sailors" side has ever been able to do, is show a single shred of any
objective data to the debate. Not one, and I've been asking for it for
years....If you can't show ANY proof, you're talking BS mumbo-jumbo
IMHO. May as well try to sell sailing according to horoscopes.

If that point of view is so correct, why is 'extreme' sailing so small? Why
are 'extreme' sports so small? Stuff-all people do bungy jumping, or run
with the bulls or race cars.....most people go walking, or fishing, or play
cricket. The logic of those who demand that sailing follows SMALLER
sports down their particular dead end escapes me.

Did one of the pioneers of the SMOD skiff,
a member of (arguably) the most successful marketing family in sailboat
racing, and the biggest sailmaker in the world get it wrong, or did those
who still cannot provide ANY objective evidence get it wrong?

BTW, Peter Johnstone now sells carbon cats, because he likes it - but he
doesn't think they will appeal to the masses.







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