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12ft Skiffs...

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3374
Printed Date: 29 Mar 24 at 8:30am
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Topic: 12ft Skiffs...
Posted By: Ross
Subject: 12ft Skiffs...
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 1:39am
...look insane! After I get half decent at sailing in cherubs, I'm throwing an inhumanely big rig on and having a play. They just look f**king mental! I think if sailing in general gets enough exposure to the British public through the 2012 Olympics etc, then the media will look at our sport (particularly the 12ft/18ft skiffs) like Formula 1. Give it a few years and it will be on mainstream TV, just like Formula 1.

Discuss...

PS: I'm going to sail on 12foot skiffs someday in the near future. It's a certainty! A cherub is a restricted 12ft'er so I think I can blag it


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Ross
If you can't carry it, don't sail it!



Replies:
Posted By: k_kirk
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 5:59am

Ross, your point is valid but I think we need broadcast capabilities to catch up with the boats we sail these days.

I am putting together an experimental system to broadcast regattas at my club from the vantage point of the safety boats etc so the parents at the clubhouse can see what their little ones are going through to earn dinner. I'm looking at using simple IP enabled webcam technology to be implemented on a low budget basis. We need to do more experimentation with this kind of stuff and generate the interest on the part of mass media rather than waiting to be discovered one day!

IMHO, when the Olympic classes all are installed with a Mast Cam + real time GPS position feed etc and on top of that when the marks are installed with motion sensing waterproof cameras in addition to floating camera crews on RIBs then we can expect F1 like coverage and excitement. Funny thing is that all this technology exists so there really is no reason why this can't be done.

Oh sorry, 12" skiff. I would love to try one day when I can. The idea is great!



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http://gaijinonfoils.blogspot.com/ - Gaijin on Foils


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 7:38am

Ross

There's a little more to it than just throwing a big rig on a Cherub!  Simon's Slug is the only boat that has succesfully carried the big rig, and even that is only a No2...



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RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 8:28am
Without wanting to rain on anyone's parade, the 18s were on TV down
here for years - and it was so "successful" that the whole circuit fell apart.
Sailing is less popular than it is in the UK. One of the two 18 Footer/12
Footer clubs is possibly going bankrupt.

Formula 1 is (from some angles) a completely rotten way to promote a
participant
sport. After all, the motor industry is about the 4th biggest industry in
the world, most adults in advanced economies can drive - and yet
motorsport is not massive in terms of participation. For example here in
Australia we have a F1 round, one of the world's great touring car events
and circuits, multiple bike world champs- and for all that motorsport is
no more popular than sailing.

If competitive sailing was as "successful" as motor racing compared to the
size of their parent industries, the whole scene would probably consist of
one IACC boat racing itself, a classic Merlin near Bognor, and three
Lasers bashing into each other.

As studies have shown, in sailing and in sport generally, there is not
necessarily any real link between the publicity a sport gets, and the
popularity of the sport. And even in the place that pretty much created
modern skiffs, they are not growing despite subsidies from clubs.


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 8:40am
I Thought that a cherub just measured as a 12fter, i wouldnt say it is restricted version!  They are completly different boats.

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Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 9:25am

The trouble is that media coverage of sport, perhaps other than football, is personality based. F1 is popular at the moment not because of the racing, which is as boring as ever, but because  young Hamilton has burst on to the scene. If TV viewers wanted motor racing excitement they would watch Formula Ford. I personally enjoy watching sailracing because I understand it and am frequently friendly with/related to the participants. So, if sailing is going to be a success on the telly we need volunteers to fill the available personality slots.

Vacancies exist for, (1) glam blonde female, who is having an affair, on off,with...   (2) glam dark male. Think Jordan/ Peter Andre. (3) Pale young man recovering from illness. (4)  Flawed sailing genius with alcohol/behaviour problems. (5) Hasbeen clinging on tragically. (6) Another genius with constant injury problems. (7) Ethnic minority.

I would welcome applications for these posts. Sailing ability unimportant. If you feel you fit the bill get in touch.



Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 9:39am
oh dear, the old "sailing on TV" chesnut is back again eh?

... relax guys, love the personality suggestions Tickler but frankly it wouldn't matter if you gathered up all the freaks from BB, the cast of several straight-to-DVD movies and some washed up 'celebrities' with questionable chemical dependancies, threw 'em in boats and filmed them racing.... IT WOULD STILL NOT SELL!

the 'average' British TV sports viewer struggles to understand any sport more complicated than football - and no, I'm not talking about the brains on this forum,

I'm addressing the MILLIONS OF BRITS (who make the ratings the TV/ad people want) who "read" the Sun, watch Corry/E-enders and text votes to Big Brother,  Celebrity Deathmatch Cook-Off or whatever....

 unfortunately, the TV companies want to pander to this dumb, sofa loving majority and they'll never get sailboat racing... it's too hard for them to work out who's leading, why someone got overtaken, even the most basic rules like giving way will have most of them totally confused... they struggle to understand rugby, cricket or tennis and you want to try and feed them skiff sailing???? please..... how could you explain skiffs gybing downwind to a mark to someone who struggles with the off-side rule????


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 9:40am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by tickler

(4)  Flawed sailing genius with alcohol/behaviour problems.

Merlinboy.... it's you!

 



after a few hours in the bar it's most of us!


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 9:54am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by tickler

(4)  Flawed sailing genius with alcohol/behaviour problems.

Merlinboy.... it's you!

 

 

I just wish the Sailing Genius was right! More like distinctly average mid fleet sailer with a bacon sandwich addicion who is excitable as a young boy with ADHD and a mouthfull of blue Smarties



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Posted By: k_kirk
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 10:16am
Originally posted by Chris 249

If competitive sailing was as "successful" as motor racing compared to the size of their parent industries, the whole scene would probably consist of one IACC boat racing itself, a classic Merlin near Bognor, and three
Lasers bashing into each other. .

Point well taken. I do think cost of entry to the sport being so high on the motorsports front do have an impact on the number of participants. Perhaps its best not to use motorsports as a comparison point.

Originally posted by getafix

the 'average' British TV sports viewer struggles to understand any sport more complicated than football - and no, I'm not talking about the brains on this forum,

I'm addressing the MILLIONS OF BRITS (who make the ratings the TV/ad people want) who "read" the Sun, watch Corry/E-enders and text votes to Big Brother,  Celebrity Deathmatch Cook-Off or whatever....

Another great point. lets not forget hooliganism as a factor driving interest in some mass hysteria sports such as football. Maybe we should consider allowing spectators pelting us with rocks. Hang on, wasn't this an issue recently with fishermen taking an odd shot?


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http://gaijinonfoils.blogspot.com/ - Gaijin on Foils


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 10:26am
Maybe we could get people interested in downwind drag races, along the lines of the 100m. Gun goes, kite goes up, boats race on a broard reach for X no of metres (1km too far to hold interest?!), first past the post wins. All in 49ers, of course, and only sailed in a force 3 or above. Might get onto digital channel No793, or something, but would have ratings worse than "Ironing board covers with special bits on them" on the down market version of the shopping channel...

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: MpHarris
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 11:38am

Just a thought but is it just me or is dinghy sailing a rubbish spectator sport?  And i don't mean to get into some big argument as seems to be going on elsewhere, i absolutely love sailing i just don't think that its a very good spectator sport.  If you look at things like you tube the only things that seem to have been watched regularily are the spectacular capsizes or bits getting broken.  Sadly i think its one thing to be blitzing along on the wire wondering how long before you bin it in, but watching it from the side theres only so many times you can watch boats planning around a course.



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Cherub 2663 "Sweet Dreams"
RS400 451 "IceBerg"


Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 1:16pm
Good points, and well made.

http://www.blueboat.tv/video/12ftSkiff.mpg
I'm not sure how they will achieve "The Concept", but if they did...

If they got a big, popular sponsor (Red Bull for example) it would be great. Look at what it did for plane racing! Red Bull air race, I don't know a thing about it, but it was good watching nutters fly around with silly looking inflatable things all over the place.

I think people still see the sport as something for the "upper classes" and that you need lots of cash in the bank to do it. If they realized that it a sport than can be participated by almost anyone. Men and women on an equal leval. Then I think there interest would quickly turn to the "higher octane/extreme" side of the sport. Thrills and spills is what people will get, and people love thrills and spills. Look at all the attention a crash gets a F1.

"So&so won this race, but this guy crashed in ball of flames and took out 3 cars, a wall and exploded taking out a section of Silverstone..."

**The icing on that cake would be if it did become as popular as motor sports, and a well known sailor went clubbing with his mates, hooked up with some chick a shagged her round the back of maccy D's, BUT got snapped buy a photographer for the Sun. People would then think "He's just a  spotty youf (who's a good sailor) and just like any other person....blah blah blah"**


It can't just be sailors who like to watch sailing. I've shown my friends some videos and they've all said "That looks mental!". Two of them asked if they could come and watch the cherub nationals from a power boat!

**-**:Typical Ross rambling and complete bollocks  


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Ross
If you can't carry it, don't sail it!


Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 2:18pm

Nice thought Ross but I don't think so!

Windsurfing went down the same route and even had Red Bull as a sponsor. Slalom courses are all downwind blasts with carve gybes at each mark. It still sells a lot of windsurfing videos but windsurfing on the telly? Don't recall any recently.

I'm not sure whether people care whether sailing is a rich man's sport or not. Motor racing is extremely expensive but people identify with it and go watch. Sailing struggles because you have to have done it to understand/appreciate what you are watching. So little chance of the spectacle appealing to the non-sailors.



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English Dave
http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

Hurricane 5.9 SX
RS700


Posted By: Bram
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 4:16pm

 

The thing that challenges all of this is the fact that golf and professional poker take up 7 cable channels in the US on any given weekend day.  Now, maybe it's just me, but I find lawn growing competitions more interesting.

Bram



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Bram


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 7:29pm

Interesting discussion thread. Perhaps I could interject to make a couple of points (seeing as it was me who had that video produced and brought the 12's into the UK)...

1./ With regard to TV et-al, there are now so many channels that they are all clambering for "good content", however this doesn't just mean that because something's exteme or fast that it will get airtime. There are a lot of ingredients that go into making something televisable (is that a real word?).

2./ Next year we are planning to run a series of joint events with the 12s and 18s, and will be doing corporate hospotality for sponsors and their guests. You'll all be very welcome to come along and watch. Interestingly one of the things we've been looking at is the course that we use to make the racing more exciting and easier for non-sailing people to understand (we agree with the points made about the sport being too technical).

3./ Ross, once you've mastered your Cherub, give us a call and we'll get you out in a 12. What Iain says is right, and although chucking big rags onto a Cherub will kind-of work, it's really not the best solution. Also, please bear in mind that there is and always has been an open invitation to ANY Cherub owner to bring their boat along to a 12 meeting and race with us (and if you win, we do give you the trophy, as happened at Datchet this year).

Bob



Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 8:34pm
Why cant the 14's come along to that event as well??

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Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 8:49pm
Sorry if I am a boring old fart but back in the fiftes when sailing in the week long A class nationals (big model boats) at Fleetwood they put adverts on the Blackpool trams and in the local paper ect. It blew VERY hard that week and it was pre radio controll. Down wind those boats kite up, about 7' long and weighing up to 70lbs went as fast as you could run. Spectacular stuff and they were hard to stop at the downwind end. The Fleetwood Club had a commentator with a PA system. We drew quite a crowd of holliday makers allong the prom. I was probably about 15 at the time and felt quite the star when my name was mentioned when I jumped in to stop my boat before it obliterated its self  on the bank. Mind you there was bugger all else to do on holliday in Fleetwood in those days.


Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

Why cant the 14's come along to that event as well??


Because there not 12ft long. Cherubs measure as 12 foot skiffs, afaik.


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Ross
If you can't carry it, don't sail it!


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 10:02pm
No the 12ft skiff and 18 ft event READ the other posts

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Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 11 Sep 07 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Merlinboy

No the 12ft skiff and 18 ft event READ the other posts


whoops, my bad . I guess because both the 18s and the 12's have unrestricted sail area.


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Ross
If you can't carry it, don't sail it!


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 9:47am

They haven't asked.

It has possibilities for 2009 though.



Posted By: Fliptop
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 9:50am

SkiffyBob's point about TV coverage is absolutley right. The conversations that I've had with TV companies all start with the same comment, "We'd love more sailing content, but..."

The real problem is that they dont get delivered the right content packaged in the right way. Thats why we've invested a lot of time and money into preparing video content that is at least in a format that they can use if they choose to.

The biggest obsticle is often the sport itself; the jargon, the race format, and the lack of promotion to the non sailing masses. Its no good just sitting back and blaming the TV companies for not covering sailing, if we want them to, then we have to change the sport to make it right for them.

 

 

 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 10:57am
I did come across something interesting a few years ago. I was sitting out a day at the Cherub Nationals which that year were at New Quay in Wales. One of the many nice things about New Quay as a venue is that you sail 200 yards off the beach past a breakwater and you are out in the Irish Sea, so racing is close to the shore, and especially close to the breakwater.

So I went out to the end of the breakwater to watch the racing. Being a nosy sod I also had half an ear on conversations going on around me. To my utter astonishment the general public, sitting on the end of a breakwater in Wales, were following the racing! Being Cherubs the boats were brightly coloured and easy to distinguish, and you could hear people say things like "I like the one with the spots and the green and yellow sail", but you could tell that people were able to figure out who was leading as they approached the leeward mark, things like that.

Now I don't know whether the folk there had exposure to sailing or not, but it was quite striking that there was sailing actually succeeding as a spectator sport. I was amazed! What I took from that is thet to succeed as a spectator sport you need small fleets and boats that can very easily be indentified from the shore...



Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 11:36am

I think JimC has a good point here and we have the same following at Ballyholme from visitors to Bangor who turn up with binoculars et al.

One of the big problems with viewing sailing is the fact that sailors are free to pick their own route to the marks. Little overtaking (in a single class fleet) comes from actually going past the boat in front. You tack or gybe off to find better wind/clearer air and find that you are ahead the next time you cross. That's a difficult enough concept to grasp without having a big fleet to contend with. Ainslie/Scheidt worked at Sydney on TV because all the other Lasers in that last race weren't important (other than that Scheidt needed to put 20-odd between him and Ainslie). The AC is successful in a similar way and also because they have onboard cameras and you don't have to be a sailor to marvel at the power of the Grinders and the money involved in the boats.

I've looked at the 12' Skiff vid and I'm still not sure how you take tactics completely out of sailing. If you are on a downwind blast and the boat behind tries to pass to windward you're going to luff him or get completely becalmed as 100m2 of gennaker (I'm estimating but that kite was fin' huge) thunders past. That's tactics and is also the nature of sailing because we all work off the one "engine" (the wind) rather than each having our own onboard.



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English Dave
http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

Hurricane 5.9 SX
RS700


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 2:41pm
Nah, it'a a measly 60sqm...

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RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 5:11pm

It's all very well saying "I don't care then" Turnturtle, but I bet you'd be the first to say yes if someone offered you sponsorship money to fund your boat and your sailing, and herein lies the problem. I constantly here people moaning about the fact that there's no money in the sport. People struggle to fund their boats, clubs struggle to fund the open meetings, and builders struggle to keep paying the salaries.

The only way to break this cycle is through commercial funding, and this only comes through a return-on-investment. If we, as a sporting community, want to break this cycle, we need to be more thoughtful of the needs of commercial funders and provide them with what they want, and if this means doing the odd race that's crap sailing but provides the sponsors, spectators, and media companies with what they want, then is it really so much to ask?



Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

It's all very well saying "I don't care then" Turnturtle, but I bet you'd be the first to say yes if someone offered you sponsorship money to fund your boat and your sailing, and herein lies the problem. I constantly here people moaning about the fact that there's no money in the sport. People struggle to fund their boats, clubs struggle to fund the open meetings, and builders struggle to keep paying the salaries.

The only way to break this cycle is through commercial funding, and this only comes through a return-on-investment. If we, as a sporting community, want to break this cycle, we need to be more thoughtful of the needs of commercial funders and provide them with what they want, and if this means doing the odd race that's crap sailing but provides the sponsors, spectators, and media companies with what they want, then is it really so much to ask?



The really trick is to do that and not make it crap sailing.

The killer for sailing is the cost of covering the sport. OB's are expensive at the best of times, add to that the concept of water and cameras the the price sky rockets. There's a very good reason Darts and Snooker are broadcast, it's cheap to do.

Add to that the reducing revenue from advertising because of channel diversity ( the unforeseen consequences of the Digital TV revolution ) and it makes it even more important for the coverage to be cost effective.

As technology improves ( as we are seeing now ) it will become easier to broadcast sailing to the new niche channels.

But as far as I see it it will be the technology that allows this to happen coupled with a shake down / restructuring of the conventional broadcast companies / production companies. Not all of which is a good thing especially if you are at all concerned about the quality of TV in general.

Now if you could couple Sailing a 12 footer and some reality TV idea you've got it made. If you could bung some cooking in there for good measure it's an INSTANT JACKPOT!



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Posted By: Chas 505
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 10:42pm

Personally, I think that 12 footers are the ideal fodder for advertisers, though......

As I mentioned to you guys at Datchet a month or so ago....why do you bother racing to windward.......?  the whole point of your rigs is downwind blasting, so you are actually compromising that by having to race back upwind.......imagine how much sail area you could live with if you didn't need to worry about racing back up to the start line.

Downwind slalom racing, with the TV interviews conducted on the way back up to the start line.

A 2 mile course, with a choice of 5 different angles (2 sail reaches, through to direct runs, with gybing angles.  4 boat heats, building to a knockout/tide ride finale sort of thing.

That could work well, when interspersed with the horse racing on Channel 4, or the cricket....which is what the 18 footers used to do in Aus.

You would surely get Professional crews if you could make that work - just like the ultras from a few yrs ago....but with much less scale due to to smaller crew numbers - and thus campaign costs.

We may all like the tiny variables and subtle windshifts etc; technical boats (and I am worse than most)....telly audiences want to see blasting, crashes, and lifestyle sports.

Cha



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Life is too short.
Work Hard; Play Hard; Sail a 505


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 12 Sep 07 at 10:44pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

It's all very well saying "I don't care then" Turnturtle, but I bet you'd be the first to say yes if someone offered you sponsorship money to fund your boat and your sailing, and herein lies the problem. I constantly here people moaning about the fact that there's no money in the sport. People struggle to fund their boats, clubs struggle to fund the open meetings, and builders struggle to keep paying the salaries.

The only way to break this cycle is through commercial funding, and this only comes through a return-on-investment. If we, as a sporting community, want to break this cycle, we need to be more thoughtful of the needs of commercial funders and provide them with what they want, and if this means doing the odd race that's crap sailing but provides the sponsors, spectators, and media companies with what they want, then is it really so much to ask?



Commercial funding isn't the "only way" to break the cycle. People could sail cheaper boats (arguably, they are). They could go to fewer Opens and concentrate on building hot local fleets. They could (if possible) lease most of the clubhouse to a commercial bar/restaurant/gambling joint that attracts thousands of people who never look out of the window at the sailing, but subsidise it. Of course, you then lose most of the nice aspects of a club......

The problem with the pro/tv model, Skiffybob, is that it never seems to work. Remember, this paradise you envisage has been chased for decades in a country with a similar culture, and it has never emerged.

Part of the problem is that the "cure" makes a disease worse. If you want to televise racing, the average boat sailed by the average good sailor you're trying to help is no good. People won't watch the Frensham Pond Lark Open or whatever.....judging from experience, they won't even watch 12s. They will watch 18s a bit, but they are extremely expensive by their nature. The simple fact is that the boats that have the best chance of sponsorship are also among the most expensive boats, so costs to sailors do not normally go down.

And to get on TV enough, you have to be at the front of the fleet - so that means you have to be pretty much full time sailors. That's expensive. The top guys can get massive funding, the rest of the fleet are left well behind.

 In the early days of the 18's Grand Prix series, costs rose dramatically because the top crews could go to their sponsor and say that being competitive gave them TV time, and to be competitive they needed a tank testing programme that was about the cost of an entire rigged B 18. Of course, the series collapsed under such spending pressure, and it only revived when severe restrictions
were introduced. So the "revenge effect" of the televised GP racing was to kill a decades-long history of open development - exactly the reverse effect to what people had been hoping for.

Exactly the same thing happened in the pro windurfer racing. Gear there is now highly restricted, and you can no longer race anywhere with custom gear. The TV killed the diversity and the wonderful spirit of amateur construction.

They've tried the pro windsurfring circuit, pro 60' tri inshore circuit, pro 18 circuit, ProSail circuit, Formula 40 circuit, PYRA circuit, Ultimate Yacht Race circuit, Ultra 30 circuit, GP 49er circuit......they just don't work in the way people hope.






Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 9:14am
Tide ride is this weekend - sounds like the right format already...


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 12:42pm

So it appears that the ideal here is:-

Downwind slalom racing with each boat having a celebrity chef as crew. We then put a champoin darts player at each mark whose job it is to burst the balloons filled with flour which are hanging from the rigs, and the winner is the one who makes the best omlette by the finish line.

Sounds awesome!



Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 13 Sep 07 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

So it appears that the ideal here is:-

Downwind slalom racing with each boat having a celebrity chef as crew. We then put a champoin darts player at each mark whose job it is to burst the balloons filled with flour which are hanging from the rigs, and the winner is the one who makes the best omlette by the finish line.

Sounds awesome!






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Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 20 Sep 07 at 3:29pm

HAHAHAHA, Bob what have you been smoking!

Just read this thread, not gona comment on it all - Ross, where do you sail? My 12's currently in Plymouth but will more likely be back in Southampton shortly due to a change of circumstances. If you wana ride give us a bell. A 12 is not just simply a cherub with big rigs, believe you me! I tried a big rig / 49er kite on Aquamarina, was ok, until I sailed a 12 - SOOO different its not true! Same as Team Scotland, started moding there boat, only to sail a 12 and decide to buy one! & come along to our events, if its windy we will all be carring similar kinda rig sizes anway.

Downwind races would be awesum, as it does get boring twin wiring upwind in only 7knots of wind  Yes, i need a bigger rig!

To be honest, I love sponsorship - couldnt get any when i campained the 49er, but in abundance in the 12!!! (excuse spelling!) supply and demand and all that! & anyone out there, you tell me you dont see a video of a 12 sending it downhill and think........ borrrring...........  



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-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Sep 07 at 10:07am
Originally posted by andy_cherub

To be honest, I love sponsorship

Yeah? I loathe it. Organising sailing is complicated enough without having to compromise things for the needs and wishes of the sponsors as well as the competitors.

I'd much rather be completely in control of what I do, sail when I want, not sail when I don't want, all the rest of it, than have my freedom of action compromised by obligations I have to a sponsor.


Posted By: foaminatthedeck
Date Posted: 21 Sep 07 at 10:49am

A little off topic but I am involved with a university sailing club and we get some sponsership from a local pub, when ever we talk about get money from other organisations it always seems that if we ask for a resonable sum ( based on what we think that we can offer a sponser) that after set up costs for producing there branding we arn't left with a useful sum of money.

It would be useful if the likes of Andy who have a working sponsership deal could give us an out line of what you offer a sponser in return of the money or equipmet that you recive.



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Lark 2170


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 21 Sep 07 at 12:10pm

Mark, when I was the social for Plymouth Uni sailing Club I used my links and got funding towards merchandise, jackets etc. Also it was our year when we moved from the "old mans pub" to the Scream joint! The club went from broke every year to earning a little safehold of money to put towards boats and racing events. When I left there was still a fair wack of cash in the kitty! So yes, sponsorship / advertising does help even outside the actual sailing.

What position are you in the sailing club? Im currently in Plymouth and the 12's at Mountbatten, ill swing by say hi later on. Still Wed night in the roundabout is it?

& in regards to sponsors, and obligations - yes it would be perfect if we can all just fund ourselves, but if we want to push ourselves and the boats to the limit, it does get costly. Travel, event entry, new sails, (new mast, opsy). So unless you have a huuuge disposable income or just sail to potter about you dont need any help.



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 21 Sep 07 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by andy_cherub

To be honest, I love sponsorship

Yeah? I loathe it. Organising sailing is complicated enough without having to compromise things for the needs and wishes of the sponsors as well as the competitors.

I'd much rather be completely in control of what I do, sail when I want, not sail when I don't want, all the rest of it, than have my freedom of action compromised by obligations I have to a sponsor.


You could also add to that increased equipment costs to participate due to increased funding at the front. These costs will have to be borne in full by those who are not at the front of the fleet or who do not represent 50% of the fleet.



-------------
If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 21 Sep 07 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

sorry can't resist it any longer...

FACT 1: Andy you probably couldn't get sponsorship in a 49er because you weren't close enough to the front of the fleet; 2012 aspirations or not. 

FACT 2: Someone's done a good job convincing people that the 12 footer are the next best thing if you've got all this slosh funding kicking about... let's see whether the ROI really stacks up when you guys renegotiate your sponsorship deals in a year or two.  Andy if you think getting sponsorship is tricky, trying getting a second round of funding mate, different ball game altogether.

FACT 3: Is the 12 footer thing an amateur sport?  If so, then there's no real place for unrelated commercial sponsorship for all the reasons cited by Granite & Jim above.  Sponsorship of this type is a totally different proposition from the 'mutual back scratching' of GUL supporting RS sailors, uni sailing team 'landlord assistance', Noble offering discouts through CAs etc

FACT 4: If you can't afford to maintain an amateur dinghy in racing order, then don't own it....  there are other options open to you I'm sure.  BTW- a standard graduate/ low rate high street loan would more than cover the cost of any of the 12's imported into the UK so far, so I really don't think you can argue that you're pushing typical financial boundaries for most sailors... never heard of an International 14??? 

 

TT,

14s arent that exspensive! Actually a 12ft skiff makes them look cheap!

Ha ha

Cheers

Alex



-------------
Greatfully Sponsored By
www.allgoodfun.com
Int 14 GBR 1503!!


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Sep 07 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by BBSCFaithfull

14s arent that exspensive! Actually a 12ft skiff makes them look cheap!

The thing people tend to forget about the multiple rig boats is that although you have to buy three rigs, they last three times as long, so that over the course of a normal boat lifetime you spend much the same money. So, no, over the term the Twelves aren't particularly expensive. Big rags do cost more than small rags, but a 14 rig has got to be much the same sort of cost as a 12 No 2 anyway.


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 21 Sep 07 at 4:25pm

Correct Jim, and don't forget that 12s rarely have 4 complete rigs, they will often share masts and poles bewteen rigs.

14s will also be much costlier on the hull (more complicated and bigger), have many more fittings, and T foils don't come cheap...



-------------
RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed"
Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 21 Sep 07 at 4:40pm

Added to which, a 10 year-old 12 hull will still be stiff, down-to-weight, and fully competitve, which is more than you can say for most classes.

Because of inflation, a 10 year-old 12 footer will sell for about the same as it cost when new, and for those who think 12's are dearer than 14's, a fully 3-rigged boat is about £15k new (not much more than a single-rig B14 or 49er).



Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 26 Sep 07 at 5:01pm
TT, i'm sorry mate, my computer broke aover a week ago and i have been waiting for new one, i just wish i could have replied to that load of crap before you! just when you think he cant come up with anymore crap! BOOM Straight at ya!

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Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 5:19pm

The new 12 design from NZ hit the water last wekend. Here are some pics.



Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 5:32pm

Still rekon itll need a t-foil

will be interesting to see what other sailors think!



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 6:10pm
Is there a beam restriction? I guess there must be ...

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Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 6:16pm

yup 1.8m beam

The 13ft R class is unrestricted beam



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 6:22pm
I thought the 12ft skiff class weren't allowed racks?  Or was I just wrong?


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 6:28pm

Nah you can pretty much do what ever you like as long as its fundamentally 12ft long on the water line, 6ft wide and min 45kg!

But you sail a 12 unlike any other boat (ontop upwind and on its ear down), so thats the reason they are so round etc.

this is the latest offering from NZ - so will be intersting to see how it gets on! Logic of a narrower bows, more slicing and not so much tripping up when the boats actually in the water

they went retractable pole tho - still not sure why!



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by andy_cherub

they went retractable pole tho - still not sure why!

The why is easy to understand - without 15 feet of pole sticking out the they'll be significantly faster through waves. Its the how that amazes me!


Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 6:35pm
Looks preety kl. The racks definatly help the asthetics of the boat if nothing else   More info http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/index.cfm?rd=n&SEID=&SRSID=&eid=&pid=&nid=38128 - http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/index.cfm?rd=n&SEID=& amp;SRSID=&eid=&pid=&nid=38128

-------------
RS600 988


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 6:46pm
jim, the poles always outa the water anyway - the only time it goes through the waves is in very light wind with a big big chop! even then doesnt seem to slow down much compared to the boat slammin about!

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 6:51pm
looks good to me! For once have to agree with andy, think it will need t-foil!

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by andy_cherub

jim, the poles always outa the water anyway

Its not hitting the water that's the issue, its how much more the boat slams with the increased pitching moment.


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 7:18pm

To be honest Jim - sailing the 12 that isnt an issue, joys of light weight carbon sticks! & so much drive behind the boat so no slamming motions. But more the reason to use a T-foil!



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 10:04pm

There are fore and againsts for both fixed and retractable sprits. Because the fixed poles are stayed, they don't need to be that strong and hence a quite light (so not that much pitching moment, really hardly noticeable). Thay are however a cow on the start line. Retractables need to be stonger (and hence heavier) being unstayed, they also require more support gubbins under the foredeck (again heavier in the bow, and are obviously more prone to jamming.

There are a few boats now that have retractable, most of which still stick out 6ft when stowed anyway. You takes your pick really (which is the beauty of the unresriced nature, no stupid rules getting in the way).

Oh, and on the subject of racks, basically the max beam is 1.8m. you can get there how ever you like, but you're not allowed to use any means of effectively extending the trapezing beam beyond 1.8m.



Posted By: FireballNeil
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 10:26pm

Oooh nice

Daaaaaaaaad I want a 12foot skiff for christmas



Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 19 Oct 07 at 10:30pm
Well boy-o, if you do Havoc will be up for sale after the new year. & for a very handsome price indeed

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 12:09am
Originally posted by Smight at BBSC

Looks preety kl. The racks definatly help the asthetics of the boat if nothing else   More info http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/index.cfm?rd=n&SEID=&SRSID=&eid=&pid=&nid=38128 - http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/index.cfm?rd=n&SEID=& amp; amp; amp;SRSID=&eid=&pid=&nid=38128


Not true, think of all the energy that the boat absorbs when hitting spray at speed. imagine trying to run a race with people throwing buckets of water at you! With racks theres less hull for spray to hit.

That 12 looks NUTS.


-------------
Ross
If you can't carry it, don't sail it!


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Skiffybob

You takes your pick really (which is the beauty of the
unresriced nature, no stupid rules getting in the way).


.



If there's no stupid rules, does that mean I can make a 12 that's 16 feet
long?



Posted By: a_stevo
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 2:20am

fair point chris.

but the 12 is about fun and silliness not rules and tecnicality



Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 1:21pm
Yeah, I was tongue in cheek......but as we all know there's always rules, it's just a matter of how many.


Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 1:27pm
He said stupid rules though..............

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Ross
If you can't carry it, don't sail it!


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 2:15pm
they're starting to look like UK cherubs now!

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Posted By: Ross
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by stuarthop

they're starting to look like UK cherubs now!


Thats what I was thinking!


-------------
Ross
If you can't carry it, don't sail it!


Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 5:09pm

Originally posted by Ross

Originally posted by Smight at BBSC

Looks preety kl. The racks definatly help the asthetics of the boat if nothing else   More info http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/index.cfm?rd=n&SEID=&SRSID=&eid=&pid=&nid=38128 - http://www.sail-world.com/cruising/index.cfm?rd=n&SEID=& amp; amp; amp; amp;SRSID=&eid=&pid=&nid=38128


Not true, think of all the energy that the boat absorbs when hitting spray at speed. imagine trying to run a race with people throwing buckets of water at you! With racks theres less hull for spray to hit.

That 12 looks NUTS.

Ross mate read what i said. "if nothing else" that doesn't mean to say they don't do anything or effect the way the boat sails



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RS600 988


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 5:10pm

Lol Hoppy I know - so ya know what we need then!!  (huh humm,  t-foils, hum hufff hum!!)

ps - we may have just a handful of rules - but one is, 12ft long on the water line!!  any longer and its just a pig

Other silly ones are restricted length on wheelie bars - but I NEED to get further back scottie!!! Oh and mi hull weight of 45kg - lame, we need to adopt the R class way of thinking, none!! so hull weight of about 30kg - schweeeet!



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 20 Oct 07 at 5:46pm
yeah t-foils ARE the way forwards

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Posted By: allanorton
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 8:30am

I do admire the NZ & aussie 12s, but, I just don't think they will ever get going as a class in the UK, I would like to be proved wrong.

I think most sailors that want to sail high performance boats don't want to have to be swapping rigs, tipping boats over, have fixed bow sprits etc..  Also I don't think ther're are many clubs that would welcome a fleet of boats taking up boat park space tipping over to rig up, and being effectively 24ft long.  I think that the UK Cherub is a better boat for the way sailing is over here.

However, in the right conditions they do look great fun to sail, let alone race.

That new NZ skiff hull looks a bit like the old Howlett 1b 14 from the early 90s!  Look closely even the trapeze harnesses are the same



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Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 8:46am

I beg to differ about the UK 12ft skiff class. Look at http://www.12footskiff.com - www.12footskiff.com

We have really only been established for a year, a month after the first set of Ozzy boats came out of the containers we had our nationals with 7 boats.

One other 12's just found a new home, more boats are being shipped over in the new year, and the demand for second hand boats is truely there - just dont have the number of 2nd hand boats to keep up with that demand!

You'd be surprised about just how many clubs welcome us. Yes we tip on our sides (like cherubs) and have a fixed pole, but if we are tite for space we all roll over inbetween each other and its a load of cadets and mirrors which take up all the space!!

ps, ive only had one occasion when I had the wrong rig up - alot more wind blew in than expected, but racing was abandoned so wasnt overly concerning, jus sail it free! hehe!



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 2:05pm

Quote - they're starting to look like UK cherubs now!

Or could it be that UK cherubs are moving slowly more towards 12 shapes now they have twin wires and a bit more rag? Here's another boat that's just been launched, just to show you that they're all different...



Posted By: Skiffe
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 3:03pm

A few points from the resident down under 12fter sailor.

Firstly the Skiff above is a woof hull, formerly "Roadkill" Maersk Line is our class sponsor for our boxes to and from NZ.

24 foot long is very short for a no. 1 rigged 12, we are over 30 from tip of pole to end of rudder box.

Sponsors, have a look around, we are about to announce a new sponsor au$5k so they are around.

T foils if you cannot sail a 12 without one, then maybe you should try a bit harder. Sorry it won't happen.

Wheelie bar lenght is unresticted, providing that is is removeable.( the rule states intergated). there is one 12 in syd with a 700mm outrigger. but you can have 1700mm if you want!

Skiffybob are you guys coming to Windy Wellington?



-------------
12footers. The Only Way to FLY

Remember Professionals built the titanic, Amateurs built the ark.


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 4:08pm

ohh I missed that rule then! so the 'wheelie bar max length' measurement im thinking of is for fixed wheelie bars - then can have a removable extension in the end as long as my heart does desire?!  THATS going on the new boat!

Bob and Alan will be out in Welly - unfortunately my studenty budget wont allow me to!  but im saving for OZ!



-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 5:04pm
I think the reason people think they are starting to look like cherubs and not the other way round is because newer cherubs are moving away from a wide hull to a hull with a racks, much the same as the 12fter pictured with racks.

-------------
RS600 988


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 7:38pm

The Uk Cherubs have had narrow huls with near vertical sides for a good few years now. Many of the narrow boats were built with flairs out to the max width so looked much wider than they were at water level but there was the odd one with racks.

Many people thought solid wings were better when sailing single string as it was was thought to be eiser for the helm to sit inboard in lighter winds. The advantage of a racked boat was that the crew had an eisy half trapizing position.

The new narrow boat looks like an interesting design though. I like the idea of the spray rails but I am not sure how draggy they would be.



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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 8:22pm

I'll be at the windy well. Flying in a week before and doing the "campervan in South Island" bit first.

See you there.



Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 8:36pm

I have to say that I find it interesting that there are so many comments about "how similar this is" to an XXX. Neither of these pics shows the underwater shape at all! It's completely different to a Slug, Deamon (whatever), and in no way resembles a Howlett 1b, If this boat had the same underwater shape but was flared out to the gunwales, I wonder if you'd all have made the same comments (me thinks not).

I guess that it's the age old thing of "fashion". just because it's got racks, it must be good? It just goes to show why some of the mass market manufacturers get away with it. Design a crap boat but make it look cool, stick all the toys on it, and people will buy it in their droves.



Posted By: ratface
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 8:40pm
So... from what your saying skiffybob if i was to put racks on the Spice people would think its "cool"

anyone want me lend me some racks?

-------------
http://www.blym.org.uk/ - BLYM
http://www.blym.org.uk/hydrs/index.htm - Hertfordshire Sailing team
Uk-Cherub 2644
Laser 4000 -4089


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 8:44pm

They'll probably tell you that it looks like a Cherub though...

Oh, but you'll have to photograph it sailing so that nobody can see the hull shape



Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 8:50pm
how bout this comparison between woof 12, and new cherub from y and y a while ago - looks pretty similar until the topsides.

-------------
" rel="nofollow -
http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 8:53pm

Andy, are you sure that image is quite big enough. Don't you have a bigger one anywhere?

Which cherub design is that then? Looks quite round with a fair bit of rocker.



Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 9:05pm
sorry - i just resized it!

mmmm rounded, rocker, looks like a scaled down 14!





Much more rounded than the 'normal' cherub - if there is such a thing.

-------------
" rel="nofollow -
http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling


Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 9:14pm
Ohh thats because it IS a scaled down 14!! thats the beiker cherub of carbonology! To be honest - I hadnt realised just how round it was!

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 21 Oct 07 at 10:52pm
Do most of the 12s have self tackers as i have only seen one twelve and that was at the dinghy show and that didn't have a self tacker

-------------
Josh Preater

http://www.bu22.co.uk">BUZZING IS FUN



Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 12:33am
I don't think they have self tackers, correct me if i'm wrong, but this is to allow for bigger jibs.

-------------
RS600 988


Posted By: a_stevo
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 9:44am

12's have been slower to adopt the self tacker than other classes. none retrofitted as far as i know.

jib size is one thing. also the self tacker means that the stump can't be suported as nicely/ridigly.

a lot of new boats are being built with them. Some have had issues, some have had to use backing lines to help you through tacks when you need it. i had a sail of CST (inters champion) last april or so, the self tacker i felt made tacking easier, but there are times where the ability to back the jib has its advantages.



Posted By: andy_cherub
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 10:01am
Yes only a few of the latest 12's have self tackers. I have had self tackers on cherubs for years but in my 12, one is the huuuge jib foot, and two as a_stevo said, during the tacks you sometimes need to back the jib. So I wont be converting back to a self tacker (just dont tell my crew) As when you tack a 12, you leave it cleated in right until the booms on its way over to the other side, then whack it in on the new side as the crew already hits the wire!

-------------
-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 1:42pm

As I said in my previous post, no "stupid" rules to get in the way. It's upto your whether you want to have your jib self-tacking or not.

The rules are basically, 12ft long, 6ft wide, 45Kg min., monohull, some simple rules about how you're allowed to extend the hull front & back for wheelie bars, snouts, etc., and that's about it. no restrictions on the rigs or control systems.

Andy, I suspected it might be the GT60. The first time I saw it, my first thought was that it would make a better 12 than a Cherub.



Posted By: Skiffe
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

I'll be at the windy well. Flying in a week before and doing the "campervan in South Island" bit first.

See you there.

Are you bring your uk based skiff and which one is it?



-------------
12footers. The Only Way to FLY

Remember Professionals built the titanic, Amateurs built the ark.


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 1:57pm

I'll be sailing Nice Action mk1 (Mush's old boat)

Just hope it's blowing its tits off, as we'll be somewhat lacking in the No.1 rig department.



Posted By: MpHarris
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 2:06pm
I thought 12's couldn't have wheelie bars?

-------------
Cherub 2663 "Sweet Dreams"
RS400 451 "IceBerg"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 2:17pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

As I said in my previous post, no "stupid" rules to get in the way.



Few rules are stupid to the class that agrees them...


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 2:46pm

But often that's not the case Jim.

Most of the "stupid" rules are put in by the original class designers/builders of one-designs. sometimes they seem like a good idea at the time (but turn out not to be), and sometimes they are driven by current materials and/or cost.

I don't know of many instances where a class has introduced additional new rules, usually they are trying to delete them.



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

I don't know of many instances where a class has introduced additional new rules, usually they are trying to delete them.

Not sure: I suspect you're experience might be a bit biased by the classes you've sailed. I'll try and research that tonight taking the ISAF submissions for the Int Classes as a guide. Too big a job to do at work.

[7pm]
Just spent a good quarter of an hour or so going through class rule amandments on ISAF website. Ennui has set in... Tha vast majority are fidling details of measurement, but of those that aren't I reckon the majority are increasing restriction. The only notable exceptions that I spotted were classes permitting carbon spars.


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 7:38pm

Jim

GO TO THE PUB!



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 8:16pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

GO TO THE PUB!

Ahh, but then I'd be a p*ssed sad old git instead of a sober one, and that's marginally worse...


Posted By: aardvark_issues
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

Jim

GO TO THE PUB!



Says the man posting at the same time in the evening!


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 22 Oct 07 at 8:50pm
With a beer in his hand


Posted By: Skiffe
Date Posted: 23 Oct 07 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

I'll be sailing Nice Action mk1 (Mush's old boat)

Just hope it's blowing its tits off, as we'll be somewhat lacking in the No.1 rig department.

Don't forget it's not called WINDY welington for nothing!

And being a "lord of the lard" i like fresh meat i.e. Virgins



-------------
12footers. The Only Way to FLY

Remember Professionals built the titanic, Amateurs built the ark.


Posted By: Skiffybob
Date Posted: 23 Oct 07 at 4:29pm

Are you calling my crew fat? (because if not, I will)!

Bring it on..




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