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2 handed boat sailed single handed

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2992
Printed Date: 03 Aug 20 at 9:03am
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Topic: 2 handed boat sailed single handed
Posted By: Guests
Subject: 2 handed boat sailed single handed
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 3:25pm

Quick question, if a double handed boat (RS400 class rules state it should be sailed by 2 persons) was sailed in a club series race single handed, should it have an adjusted PY.

 

Bit more info:- It was sailed 2 handed all series except the last race.

 

Thanks,




Replies:
Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 3:38pm
The mirror has a different PY for single handed, which puts it faster than the
standard setup, the argument being that there is less weight in the boat, but
the time lost in the turns and doing the kite alone mean its usually slower
round a course. So maybe the 400 should have a different PY but which way
to move it is a more difficult question.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 3:45pm
I would say it is down to your club to make a decision on it. At Hunts we tend to allow it on the same PY as even though there is less weight in the boat there is more skill involved (esp in a boat with a kite) which normally either makes it the same speed overall or slower.

Regards,

Paul


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 5:13pm

My view would be that if the class rules stipulate 2 crew,to sail it in any other configuration would make it out of class.  If the class rules don't then its fair game to sail with as many or few as you like.  As for PY, since this is a statistical measure, probably difficult to get an accurate PY for it sailed single handed.  

For fairness, if no one objects I would suggest sailing it off the same handicap. 

I think you'll find that the mirror single handed PY is for it stepped in the forward step with no jib or kite!



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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 5:39pm

The Mirror PY is for the boat sailed 3 sailed. (at least the one we are talking about is - the mirror somehow seems to have done what almost every other class has failed to do and get multiple PYs.

We have a system where any boat with a PY of more than 1000 races with 20 points knocked off the PY. Anything faster than that is unlikely to be quicker singlehanded. The points are knocked off mainly to encourage people not to leave the crew ashore when the wind drops, but some boats (the Firefly being a good example) are certainly faster with one in in a force 1.



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 5:48pm

Thanks for your replies, well put as usual.



Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 8:48pm

I sailed a laser 2 single handed at my club for years.  Nobody ever objected because I never won anything.  It certainly wasn't class legal (nor was the boat) but the club just let me sail off it's normal PY.

Now I'm sailing a V3000 single handed a lot - the class racing charter allows single handing but we've insufficient data to set a separate PY, so I'm still sailing off the normal 1030 - and no objections to date (except one race officer who asked "is that really in the medium fleet??).

As already said, it's up to the club whether or not they'll let you do it ....

... if they won't, join a different club.  If they will but aren't happy with the PY let them set you a personal handicap. 

NB: due to the additional difficulty and poor high wind performance, some classes actually set a higher PY for single handing (the Vago for instance).



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3604 ...lapse of reason
Javelin 558


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21 May 07 at 8:55pm
 I suppose I could ditch my standard Laser and single hand my L2 when my crew is away.


Posted By: Rob.e
Date Posted: 22 May 07 at 5:11pm
We have a guy at Potchester who used to sail his Leader singlehanded, and I think they had to give him a faster H/cap in the end, due to the weight: he was going too fast! (I think the Leader has a good h/cap anyway). Basically, if it becomes an issue, the club can do something. If it isn't an issue, there's no reason to do anything!

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Posted By: Yello Streak
Date Posted: 23 May 07 at 11:59am

I suppose the big question is when a change of crew number happens...

It could be argued (and has been on many occasions) that it is slightly unfair to leave the crew behind when the wind drops, or conversely, phone up your Rugby player sized mate when a force 6/7 is forecast..

In most classes where 'equalisation' is branded, then crew number, weight and sometimes height are applied as part of the measurement certificate.. there must be a rationale for this approach and should this approach be adopted by other calsses or even as a club ruling for example:  should the RS400 (for example) sailor have two separate sets of race results... one set for two up and the other for single-handed?   fair - possilbly, practical - probably not..

In my eyes, it has to be down to the discretion of the race officer or further still, the race committee at a policy level. This may however have a detrimental effect on some of the smaller clubs who occasionally struggle to get two or more boats out for racing..  Tough decision for the race officials I think..

 



Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 23 May 07 at 2:28pm

We had a liberal approach at Wilsonian until someone took a Buzz out in a F2-3 and blew even the Phantoms away. There was a similar effect sailing the Laser 3000 in lighter winds. All the while the sailors weren't overpowered they had a very significant advantage and made a nonsense of the PY.

Of course, that might have been reversed in a blow, though a 100kg helm would, I suspect, have a field day on the wire, having the righting moment of a smaller two-man crew and less weight overall.



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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: Adam MR 1137
Date Posted: 23 May 07 at 9:49pm

Hi,

this thread has appeared at an appropriate time, as i am on the club committee and we have had an applictaion from a wayfarer sailor whoc wishes to have his handicap adjusted as he never uses his spinneker, as we sial on a very narrow river which does not allow the space for spinnaker sailing.

I do not have a problem with this just asking for some suggestions as to number maybe?

The only problem which does occur, is a very good sailor (from our small club point of view) who sials an admirals cup national 12 has also expressed a wish that we adjust his py to meet the development state of his boat he is suggesting 1104 for his boat, a merlin sailor who sails a boat built in 1969 has also requested the same thing. The problem we have is the natinal 12 wins without an adjusted py, adn the wayfarer is competitive on all but the very light days, and i am sure that is his technique that slows him down.  The merlin sailor suffers greatly from his handicap as he cannot sail with a spinnaker and his boat is 40 years behind the py number and the boat developments.

The question is can we justify adjusting say the merlin py and not the others, or adjust the wayfarer and merlin but not the N12. Or must we adjust all if we adjust any, or none?

any thoughts would be apprecaited,

Adam



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Merlin rocket 1137
OK 2049
Can be seen at http://www.wellandyachtclub.co.uk/ - WYC


Posted By: FreshScum
Date Posted: 23 May 07 at 10:59pm

PY should be a guide for clubs to use. I think its supposed to be adjusted by club ROs as they see fit depending on local conditions, boat conditions etc. Club racing is supposed to be fun, no one should take it too seriously. Handicap events like the Tiger and Bloody Mary that people make a big effort in money or time to get to are maybe more important, but its always possible to blame your handicap for a win or loss.

So basically, you can do what you want! Unless you're competing in the series as well and just make all your competitors handicaps really hard to sail to. That would probably break Rule 2.



Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 24 May 07 at 8:20am
pity the poor race officer and that unsung hero of some many clubs, the scorer. Life is so much easier for them if a boat is entered for a series and is assumed to remain the same throughout the series. So PY handicaps can be altered at the start of the series (no spinnaker, no crew etc) but should remain unchanged.

Otherwise competitors will chop and change according to the conditions. The classic situation is the Laser hull with it's 3 (now 4) rig options. Do you allow the  boat to  choose the rig according to the conditions on the day. In which case the RO must be aware that this may happen and must carefully note what rig is being used, so that the scorer can apply the correct PY. Apply the KISS principle.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 May 07 at 11:31am

Yes, I used to take pity on Laser sailors, and actually recommended we allow them to use whatever rig they liked on the day (all the while they weren't wining everything!).

Now i'm scoring, and groan every time I go into Sailwave and try to sort out who's using what this week/race, changing the PY etc...



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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: Rob.e
Date Posted: 26 May 07 at 8:19pm
We allow Lasers to register the rig (say standard) and if they choose to use a smaller rig, up to them: that seems to work OK

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Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 26 May 07 at 9:14pm
The Merlin Rocket association gives (I think) advice on PYs for older Merlins and perhaps the N12 assoc. will do the same.  If not the CVRDA use different handicaps for different agres of Merlin and N12 but you'll have to convert these to modern ones as they use the old 100 based system.  I know I groan every time the Finn handicap reduces and I'm expected to sail my 44 year old boat faster.  However I know that some old Merlins are very good on rivers, particularly with new rigs.

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PeterV
Finn K197, Finn GBR564, Hunter Duette.
Warsash


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 May 07 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by Adam MR 1137

The question is can we justify adjusting say the merlin py and not the others, or adjust the wayfarer and merlin but not the N12. Or must we adjust all if we adjust any, or none?

As a club you're at liberty to adjust as few or as many handicaps as you like. I would note though that the general opinion tn both the Merlin and National classes is that older boats are much more competetive in confined water and river conditions, so for them to ask for a full age allowance in exactly those conditions is a bit cheeky:-)


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 27 May 07 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Yes, I used to take pity on Laser sailors, and actually recommended we allow them to use whatever rig they liked on the day (all the while they weren't wining everything!).

Now i'm scoring, and groan every time I go into Sailwave and try to sort out who's using what this week/race, changing the PY etc...



We do that as well but we tell them if they want 1 set of results for the series they will always be scored on the fastest PY. It works well until you discover that a radial rig is faster than a full rig in a blow (by being easier to manage).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 27 May 07 at 10:13am
RRS Appendix A gives instructions for scoring BOATS not the people on board. RRS 78.1 insists that "a boat's owner and any other person in charge shall ensure that the boat is maintained to comply with class rules..."

A Laser Standard and a Laser Radial have different sets of class rules and distinct class associations. They are not the same boat. If the owner or person in charge of a laser Standard wishes to sail with a Radial rig they should enter the new competitng boat in the series. All races sailed by the Laser Standard should be scored DNC for the Laser radial, which, confusingly, will have the same sail number.

I firmly believe that ISAF should insist that Laser Radial sails are clearly distinguished from Laser Standard sails.

Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 May 07 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by gordon



I firmly believe that ISAF should insist that Laser Radial sails are clearly distinguished from Laser Standard sails.

Gordon


They are, Laser Radial sails have a blue clew and a blue head and are cut differently so quite easy to tell apart IMO.

Also for club racing it is down to the club to decide whether or not they will allow swapping of rigs. Most clubs I know of promote sailing rather than stick rigorously to every rule.

Paul


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 28 May 07 at 5:21pm
Tiny sailmaking details are not really the same as marking Radial in big letters on Laser Radial sails. Pity the poor RO in bad visibility. The problem really arises when sails are passed around between comptitors in club racing and you end up with 2 identical sail numbers, or when boat sails with one rig on calm days and the other on windy days!

All other classes are distinguished clearly by letters, numbers or logos - why should the two most active single-handed fleets be an exception
Gordon


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Gordon


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 28 May 07 at 9:11pm
at our club to race ssingle handed in a double hander they take 50 points off your py to try and stop you leaving the crew behind

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 May 07 at 8:27am
Gordon,

We have never had a problem distinguishing between a Radial and full rig. Perhaps having a 'spotter' on the team who can identify those who are using different rigs and comparing them to the sign on sheet. Also if you have 2 people with the same sail no. then they should be DSQ'd as sail should be clearly and uniquely identifiable.

Paul


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 29 May 07 at 10:26pm

The Laser issue is easy, you are a full rig, unless you make it clear on the sign up sheet. If you change down because its windy, you still get the big rig handicap if you want to count it for the series. The rig you sign on with is the biggest you can use.

Easy

Andy



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Andy Mck


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Jun 07 at 4:15pm

to chuck a bit more into the mix, can you change handicaps for boats that reef? for example if a GP 14 one day sailed with all its sails but the next decided its too windy and reefed the main do you give it a different handicap?

just a hypothetical situation.

and whilst on the subject of reefing, is there a seperate PY for the 600 with a tiny rig?



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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 07 Jun 07 at 5:58am

The laser 'singlehander' class rules (ILCA) state;

7 (a) "The Laser shall be raced with either one or two persons aboard"

"When two persons race a Laser they shall race together throughout the entire race or series of races without alternating at the helm"

In  the same context of the original thread, a 'singlehanded' laser can be raced (in class) two up! Since it is in class, then the normal PY would apply.

It does however prevent you (in a series) from taking a second person out only on the windy days!

Personally, I would find a second person in a Laser on a windy day more of a liability than a help!

andymck, are we closely related?

Andymac



Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 07 Jun 07 at 11:01am
May I ask what design the Nat 12 is, if its a pipedream or a paperdart I suggest you tell him to put his new handicap in his pipe (see what I've done there?) and smoke it!  The difference between the new and old boats in only really pronounced on open water, paticularly if he has an up to date rig!

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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!


Posted By: david wilkins
Date Posted: 07 Jun 07 at 2:05pm

The National 12 Owners Association does give suggested PY numbers for older boats for club handicap racing but it is entirely up to the clubs to wether they decide to use them or not (as indeed with all published PY numbers). Tack'ho is correct that many of the older deisigns can be at least as quick as the some of the newer ones on rivers and little lakes. If your guy is winning anyway there seems no need to make any adjustyment. This should not preclude you from considering adjustments for other classes in view of their suitability or otherwise for your bit of water. A 420 for instance would probably need to be given a bit of an advantage to compete with a N12 in your conditions.

The decision on PY for double handers sailing single handed should be viewed in the same way. It is tricky whenin light winds the double handers will probably gain a bit from their reduced weight although they will probably tack more slowly than when two up and when the wind blows they could struggle.

Flexibility is perhaps the key - maintaining some flexibility could help. Perhaps your club could apply different PYs for single or double handed if its an issue?

 

 



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David Wilkins
MR3613



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