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How fast????

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=297
Printed Date: 15 Dec 19 at 10:52am
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Topic: How fast????
Posted By: Wave Rider
Subject: How fast????
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 12:48pm

Hi,

 I was just wondering what sort of top speeds Toppers can go in a big blow because i know that lasers can go about 16-17 knots in a force seven and i no toppers arent fast compared to lasers but what sort of speed do any of you lot  think they are capable of going????

 

Thanks



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933



Replies:
Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 3:53pm
hahahahaha!!! i think harry will know the answer to this one!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 4:09pm
20 knots with me at the helm! (or not!!)

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Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 4:13pm
i'll get back to you on this one 'cos i dont actually know, it feels fast though- being that low to the water!

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Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 4:22pm

lol ok thx Harry ye i no it feels pretty gd with the spray in ur face dunnit!

 

Thx



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 4:33pm
there's nothing better than flying along with spray in your face!! and wind in you hair! lol

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 4:37pm
it does!, untill you get dunked into some frrezing lake in mid november (nad dont take notice of your fellow sailors about not just wearing hickers!- its really annoying when they plane past in their oversized drysuits!

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Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 4:38pm
btw wave rider do you sail toppers

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Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 4:41pm
oh and another thing- how do you make am noversized drysuit not look to ridiculous, if you cant fit hickers over the top- ive tried lycra shorts, not a good idea!!!! 

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Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 5:04pm
nice one harry, put three posts one after the other.... just edit the first
one. nearly at posting king! keep at it

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Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 6:21pm

lol ye harry i no what you mean.........i sail at chew valley sailing club and when you get dunked your whole body goes numb........brrrrrrrrrr!

 

dont worry lol i still sit there in the freezing water looking like a lemon in my WETSUIT (i dont have a drysuit either)!.............wat dyu sail sailor grl??????



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 6:32pm
i sail my byte, and i love him!!! lol! i also crewed on a b14 in the summer a bit. and crew some yachts in the summer. what about u?

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 6:47pm
i sail toppers.........fireballs........fevas and pico's bt would love a go in a b14..................wat r those hiking racks like??????they look amazing!

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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 6:52pm
Dammit brian youve seen through my motive for unecessary posting!!

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Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 6:54pm

O yes and sailor girl do you have one of those new C2 rig things???

 

Ive always wanted to try a byte.......they look quite fast (are they??) are they similar speed 2 a laser?????

 

c ya



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 7:26pm
ummm, b14 hiking racks are umm, uncomfortable and u need strong legs!
i don't have the new rig, i am saving!!
the byte is fast on a reach, they can fly! but are very unstable, i have tried out the new rig and it seems very different, much lighter if you can understand what i mean! it is sposed to make the boats more stable and is 'self-depowering, which is a good thing as the byte sometimes get very over powered. they are faster than laser 4.7 (byte sail area is 5.6) , but slower than laser radial.

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 7:28pm

omg guys (not counting the sailor girl cos shes cool) you really need to get some decent taste in boats

b14s are good  or something along the lines of 49ers, tornado's, hurricanes etc  



Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 7:33pm
ummm, that is true! and thanks hurricane but you don't need to sail anything quite as big as 49ers tornado's etc, there are smaller boats just as cool, like bytes!!!!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 7:42pm

yep i agree i was just saying my dream boats are..... the list i said

and i agree there are lots of cool boats like rs600's and lasers ....



Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:03pm

lol tru ye i no that toppers are pretty *&^% but im only 14 and cant exactly afford a 49er or an rs800 (beleive me id love one) or even a 29er so i have to stick with that sorta stuff!!!!!!!!

 

Id love a go in a hurricane cat.....are they amazingly fast????



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:09pm

yes i sail them all the time and there is only one word for them that is awsome!!

btw (by the way) most people dont know this but they can be picked up for the same price as a good laser or even less for some of the old ones and because they are built like a tank they are just as good



Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:12pm
hurrices rule! and the people who sail them

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:16pm

o right.............cool do they have a trapeze and asymmetric or symmetric??? sorry lol i dont no ANYTHING about cants exept that they look bloody amazing and look like theyre flying when its windy!

Where do you sail yours hurri????

 



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:19pm

o ye and sailor girl.........sorry im really interested in those b14 skiff things

......how the hell do you hike off of them cos they look like trapezing racks and look really slidy.....

are you clipped on 2 somethin like on a trapeze or nt cos i no they have no trapeze bt are you on somethin similar??

O ye and what are those straps for that look like snowboardin bindings???

 

thx



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:22pm

....OMG  and 1 more thing, someone sed in another topic that 29ers are hard to sail......is that true cos im 14 and about 9-10 stone nd have been sailin 4 bout 4 yrs a bit more.

 

 I really want a go in a skiff type thing soon and i guess 29er would be the best bet (ill have 2 plead 2 go on some1's @ my club) but are they like way faster than somethin like a 420 or a fireball????????

 

thx



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:23pm

em i sail on the home of cats the south east of england

and yes they do have trapeze's hurricanes are twin trapeze

the hurricane is normally a two sail boat and is still very quick!!!!

but in SX mode it has a self tacking jib and asymmetric from a snuffer more like a tornado sport!!



Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:32pm
you hike over the wing, and there are just hiking straps you put your feet under and hang over the wing. nothing holds you on apart from your legs, which is why i said u have to have strong leg muscles!! they aren't slippery either, complete opposite, the deck is very rough aswel, i made the mistake of wearing a shortie in thesummer and my legs were bleeding and cut to pieces from getting the kite up. was ver painful! but still fun!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:36pm

lol that reminds me of pico knee if u have ever had the job to teaching people to sail picos in a shortie your knees bleed by the end of the day

the sunsail guys used to call this pico knee

i think the laser center have changed the grade of roughness on the pico decks because they arnt as bad anymore



Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:38pm

Ive saileed a 29er before theyre amazing!!!! before you decide to move into a cat look at the nationals attenance figures, you could end up with 29 at the nats. or something ridicoulously stupid like that eg: hurricane! Thats one thing toppers are good for lol!!!



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Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:42pm

ok i admit it was not a huge turn out but look where the europeans were this year muppet!!of course the turnout will be low with a europeans in northen ireland!!!

and 2 years ago the hurricane got 50 at minnis bay a huge turn out for a cat fleet!!!!

oh and another point the hurricane has the biggest attended travelers series in catamaran racing

so beat that



Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:46pm
he sails a topper

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:48pm
lol ye sounds fun....ye pico knee hurts dunnit!...................any of u lot been 2 rockley watersports????...............when i went there i learned to trapeze on a WAYFARER! they rigged it wrong or i was crap cos i fell off long and wekk i was in the water the elastic on the trapeze was still on the boat and me and it snapped

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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:52pm
Wave Rider sounds about the right weight and experience to try a 29er.  They are tippy but its a bit like riding a bike - alright as long as you keep moving.  Most of these skiff type boats have very litttle static stability - if you held it head-to-wind by the forestay it would fall over.  So its unlike a 420 which generally rounds up and stops upright if you let everything go whilst sailing.  With skiffs you are balancing the sail pressure against you weight, so no matter what, you have to keep sailing them.


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 8:58pm
wow sounds great! i wana go! are they very fast?????

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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 9:01pm
they are faster than what you have experienced by the sounds! but obviously they arn't the fastest skiff going!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 22 Nov 04 at 9:02pm
Yes, especially in a blow.


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 8:02am
ye i guessed that bt they still look fun............................the only prob is that at my age its hard to get a reliable crew if i wanted a skiffy like thing which i would eventually!.........unless of course i get a musto skiff LOL!

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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 8:05am
btw hurricane, i sail a topper, which isnt good for much apart from a quality fleet, and lots of 'em!! 50 at an event is like what we get for traveller events- and that was the europeans???!

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Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 8:11am

oh 29ers are great to sail, quite fast- and you get the hang of it after a while! I'd do a year on the topper national circuit first though, see how good you are there before moving on, and finding a goood crew/ helm.

Btw to answer the original question i've been told 12 knots for a topper in a real blow!?



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Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 9:25am

k thx harry

Lol are you @ skool like me???????



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 4:14pm
yeh im 14

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Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 4:55pm
I'm not, but a skiff definitely needs a regular crew.


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 5:13pm

Lol ye i no

 

Is a contender a skiff???



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: Binky
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 6:32pm
What gives something skiff status?


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 23 Nov 04 at 7:57pm

If the hull planes on the aft quarter it is considered a skiff and skiffs plane in fairly light winds like the 49er which will plane in a bout 10 knots of wind whereas to get a topper planing you need about 15 knots of wind!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I think!



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 24 Nov 04 at 11:05am

I think it comes down to hull form, Skiffs have large flat sections aft, distinct chines and minimal rocker to promote early planing.  Although originally the term was applied to rowing boats with similar forms the current use tends to imply boats with very large sail areas as well.  Its not a dictionary definition, but I think it covers most of it. 

Or, courtesy of dictionary.com : A flatbottom open boat of shallow draft, having a pointed bow and a square stern and propelled by oars, sail, or motor.



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 24 Nov 04 at 11:29am
Well, the modern skiff line came from down here in Australia, but there's never been a strict definition of the term.

The classic way of showing how confused it has been, historically, is that the 14s were called "skiff" in NSW and the same class was called a "dinghy" in Western Australia, with the other states wavering from one to the other.

The 16s developed from rowing skiffs (called Port Jackson's Watermans' skiffs) and many older 16 sailors use the term "skiffs" for 16s and "18s" and "12s" for the other classes....they don't reckon the 12s and 18s are real "skiffs" because they didn't come directly from rowing skiffs.

Still, if we assume that the 12s, 16s and 18s are traditional real skiffs, we can see that they have (1) multiple rigs (2) lots of righting moment - much more than a dinghy of similar length (3) big rigs (4) open rules (5) used to have rules against decks.

Aussie 14s traditionally fitted all these criteria at different times apart from 5 (IIRC).

You must be able to have a skiff without wings, because 12s and 16s don't have wings. 16s - unarguably a skiff - have now gone one design as have the 18s - so Pt 4 must also be considered dead.

All the skiff classes now have decks so 5 has faded away.

So points 1,2,3 still remain. 2 and 3 also fit other classes that claim the skiff title - 14s and 49ers, RS 800s, perhaps Laser 4000s, Musto Skiffs etc.

So it seems to me that a boat that a "skiff" should have at least a much bigger rig than a comparable dinghy and much more righting moment.

I also reckon that if you can call it a skiff in the bar of the Belmont or St George 16' skiff clubs and NOT get punched out, it's a skiff.

So a Contender is not a skiff because it doesn't fit 1,3,4,5. Mebbe it fits 2, but  Ben Lexcen, the designer of the Contender, never called it a skiff although he was also a skiff designer. Even allowing for changes in terminology, it's got nothing skiff about it.

With respect, Phil, "real" skiffs don't always have have large flat sections aft - the current 16s don't really, nor do many 12s. The older boats were distinctly Veed aft.

Skiff  also don't always have distinct chines - the current dominant "Woof" 12 is still round-bilged and still winning. Most skiffs were round  bilged through most of history (no chine skiff won a title for the first half of their historty) and many skiffs were round bilged until the early '70s. The 16s contined to be round bilged through most of their length for many years after that (fully round-bilged 16s were seen at least as late as '88).






Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 24 Nov 04 at 1:54pm
I stand corrected. 

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 24 Nov 04 at 4:23pm
i stand confused

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Posted By: Skiffman
Date Posted: 24 Nov 04 at 4:30pm

Right Julian and Frank have a complicated formula for working out which boats are a 'skiff' and which are not. It basicly comes down to 2 different numbers one for upwind and another for down. As an example a 29er is both of these numbers making it just a skiff, anything low than these numbers isn't and anything higher is.

Have a look at http://www.29er.org/9851,02,2-0.html - http://www.29er.org/9851,02,2-0.html  its Julian explaing this alot better than I have.



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49er GBR5

http://www.teamfletcherandsign.co.uk - teamfletcherandsign.co.uk
Team Fletcher and Sign campaign site


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 24 Nov 04 at 11:42pm
Skiffman, while Julian and Frank are good designers, they are NOT the only people who get to decide what a skiff is. They have designed some great 18s, I don't know if they've actually designed a succesful 16 (Julian did do the rig on Luxury Afloat, recent champion but it's an OD hull) and I'm pretty sure they've never done a 14 or a 12.

Secondly, my calcs (which may not be perfect, but seem OK) indicate that if we apply the Bethwaite formula, the 16' skiff - which has more of a claim to being a "skiff" than any other boat and is the most popular skiff in the skiff homeland - doesn't fit the Bethwaite definition of a skiff because it doesn't have the upwind power (I haven't checked downwind numbers). So if we apply the Bethwaite definition, the most popular "true skiff" of all, the one which has ALWAYS been called a skiff, suddenly becomes a "non skiff". Do you really think any pair of designers have the right to just suddenly change the designation of an entire class (to which they have never created a design, IIRC)?

I don't think the 300 + current 16 foot skiff sailors will be very happy to know that their class, which has always been a skiff, which sails from clubs that call themselves skiff clubs, which have multiple rigs and big rigs and have lots of RM and sponsorship and all the old markers of a skiff, suddenly is not a skiff any more - just because two of the opposition designers decided that it didn't have the right numbers.

The older (pre wing) 18s which still race as classic skiffs in the Queensland fleet also don't fit the Bethwaite definition. These boats WERE skiffs when they were built, they haven't changed, they are still called skiffs, they still fulfil almost everything that has ever been a part of skiff sailing - so how come they have suddenly been changed to a "non skiff"??

The 12' skiffs are very, very marginal according to the Bethwaite upwind figures. The 12s are still an open design class, they still have multiple rigs, they still have massive rigs and lots of RM, they are by far the lightest of skiffs, they sail from Skiff clubs, they ARE definitely skiffs - much more so than a 29er by any reasonable definition. So what right do Julian and Frank have to suddenly make the 12s, which are closer to the classic skiff than any other class afloat, marginal  as skiffs?

I raced a Historical 18 a fortnight ago - a replica of the 1930's champ Aberdare. According to the Bethwaite definition, she is no longer a skiff.. I don't think Julian would want to tell that to "Angry" Tearne or Fergo or other Hysterical skiffies.

The Assymetric Canoe fits the Bethwaite skiff definition, and the Canoe definitely isn't a skiff.

Surely it is not logical to apply numbers which take four of the five classes which have ALWAYS been skiffs and throw them out of the category. Surely it is not logical to apply ratios which bring boats like the Canoe, which is older than skiffs and has NEVER been a skiff, into that category?

Sorry, but the 29er has probably less right to be called a skiff than the Cherub (29er is heavier, has less sail for length IIRC), and out here at least, where skiffs came from, Cherubs were traditionally called dinghies. OK, times change - but you surely can't suddenly decree that 16,12 and classic 18s are no longer skiffs and 29er are?

The Bethwaites are important, but they are only two people in a large movement.
There is something of a tendency for them to highlight their own importance - for example Frank says in HPS that Dave Porter (with whom Julian sailed) was the "visionary" to create the 3 man on trap 18. Now, ask "Portholes" himself and he looks very embarrased about the claim made on his behalf. His designer, Chapple, was also involved. Bruce Farr was the man who actually created the first championship-winning 3 man/3 trap 18, after working on it for about the same length of time as Porter (Cool Leopard came out the same year as Porter's first 3 hander I think). Jim Young was also in there (with one of the Smirnoffs), and of course years before Ben Lexcen's Taipan and Venom had been winners three-up.

That's just an example of the fact that there seems to be a slight tendency to overly underline the importance of the boats that the Bethwaites were involved in.

PS thanks Phil for accepting that graciously. I've just learned this stuff 'cause I'm working on a book on dinghy design so I've had an exccuse to get all technical!


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 12:32am

You dinghys that range in speed from the Optimist to the 18 footer, and Cats that have lower handicaps than that (quickly dodging the cats are faster than monos - oh no they aren't saga).

As far as I can see "skiff" is now just fashion statements - the NEW Labour of sailing.  "Skiff" gives the impression that the boat is much faster and more exciting than a "dinghy".  But if the Laser 4000 is a skiff, how come it is no faster round a course than a 505 which isn't?

The 12s, 14s, 16s & 18s are all skiffs because they started that way.  UK Cherubs are becoming closer to 12s than the Aus/NZ Cherubs.

But Int. Moths are also called skiff types as opposed to the old scows because they are pointy at the front and square(ish) at the back - as per the dictionary definition.  8m2 is not a shed load of sail, but they do go incredibly fast for an 11ft boat (even without foils).

At least if you say skiff now everyone pictures a boat with an assymetric kite and lots of battens in the sails. But at the end of the day - does it really matter?? 

Chris249 - let us know when your book comes out...



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 12:59am
I wouldn't get too hung up about the definition of a skiff.  However somebody said they had flat bottoms at the back.  That's not the case with the Laser 4000 its decidedly rounded - which is what makes it so tippy.  It does however have little rocker - whch makes it difficult to sail in the light stuff since it drags its bum.  I've sailed a RS 800 quite a bit, it too has little rocker and it has flat aft sections - this makes it more stable but even worse in the lihgt stuff.  I have on a few occasions sailed a 49er, this is not as flat at the back as a 800 but flatter than the 4000 but being longer has more stability than both the others.  I can't say how well it does in the light stuff since I've never experienced it but it needs to be pretty light when you have such a huge sail area.  I've never sailed a B14, this is both flat at the back and short and the mast is a long way back making it difficult to keep the weight forward - this is a boat which parks up in light winds.  I consider them all skiffs.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 12:59am
I think you're dead right on just about all that, Blobby. You're also right, the UK Cherubs are now pro'lly skiffs by almost any definition.

Yep, "skiff" is just a Euro/US fashion label. Down here, it still means the same sort of thing pretty much although some performance dinghies are calling themselves skiffs sometimes.

I think it does matter, in that at the moment as you say, the term MEANS something distinct (albiet subject to some blurring at the edges, like almost any term).

If we just let it drift, to the stage where a 505 becomes a skiff and a 405 becomes a skiff so an Oppie becomes a skiff, we've lost a useful term.

I'd like to think up a term for a "pseudo skiff" like (mebbe) 4000s, 29ers, etc; maybe Jim C's "skiff type" is the best.

Ya, I'll keep you posted re the book.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 3:16am
Redback, with respect, when you say "I consider them all skiffs" - what do you base that on?

The term, as now applied, comes from  down here. The boats from which it comes are pretty easy to identify. Surely you can't just take the term and apply it to a  boat that doesn't come close to being a skiff, really?

The 4000 is about the same length as a 505; it's about the same weight; it's probably got about the same "wingspan" and RM (but in the 505 the "wings" are built-in flare due to the structural problems Westell had to deal with back then), the 505 has more upwind sail, about the same downwind, and the 505 is faster.

So if the 505 is a dinghy (and it IS) what makes the 4000 a skiff, rather than a dinghy?

I mean it's a great boat, but is it really a skiff? If so, what makes it a skiff? What makes the 505 a "not-skiff"? Or have you migrated the 505 to the skiffs, too? In that case, the Aussie Sharpie should be a skiff....and in that case the FD....and the IC....

Compare the 4000 and 505 to the closest skiff in LOA, the 16 - the 16 has almost 80 ft2 more upwind sail (half as much again) on a hull just 7" or so longer (but 25% lighter). The L4000 carries just 58% of the 16's sail area downwind. The 16 has much more RM; is considerably faster.

You can just look at a 4000 against a 16 and see it's a different beast.

Compare the L4000 to the 12' skiff - the 12 has more RM on a much shorter hull; it has a hull that weighs less than 50% of the 4000's hull, and it sets 80ft2 more sail upwind and MORE THAN TWICE  the L4000's sail downwind.

Or look at the NZ (Spencer) Javelin, which is traditionally considered a dinghy; it is about 25% lighter than the 4000, has about the same RM, almost the same sail area, and is probably quicker. So it has more claim, perhaps to a skiff title thant the 4000 - but the Jav is not generally considered a skiff.

The I-14 skiff has 20% more sail than the 4000 on a shorter hull, 25% less weight, way more RM, way more speed, and about 200 ft2 more sail downwind.

So they are skiffs. If you plot the 4000 against them, it's off the scale. If the 4000 is a skiff, then logically the 505 must be 'cause it's very similar in dimensions.

And if the 505 is a skiff, what's stopping the 470 (basically a baby-rigged 505) from being a skiff....and a 420.....


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 5:17am
I always thought 4 tonners were tippy because they have a 7m tall tin mast, and that tin mast is not exactly light...and they are a pain to right for lightweights because of the 20Kg of lead in the middle of the boat working against you.  I see on their forum that racing with milk cartons tied to the top of the sail is now recommended practice...very sexy!


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 10:17am
maybe the easiest thing is to forget the term "skiff" and just use class names

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 11:01am

Hi Chris, for me the asymmetric is part of the equation - so the 5o5 is a dinghy and the 4000 a skiff.  There are other factors which for me make a boat a skiff, trapeze, able to plane to windward, no foredeck, fully battened sails.  But I'm not hooked on the idea that they must have all these features.  I'd include the B14 (no trapeze), I'd even include the Moth at a push and both these boat have fordecks.  So for me a skiff is just shorthand for a type of boat which has taken certain ideas for the 18ft Skiff.



Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 4:38pm
a fast boat then. what was it in y&y assymetric mostly trapeze and fast or
something.

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Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 5:05pm

i think the word skiff means a boat that is

1 very quick

2 for advanced sailors

3 costs alot to run

anyone else like to add any??

 



Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 5:06pm
like sending you swimming (if your not used to it!)

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Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 5:18pm
yea i love watching skiff sailors who are over powered try to keep it up when it is really windy ( i did say blowing but apparently its too rude)


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 5:30pm
and yet u have said it again? dont most skiffs have open transoms aswell?

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Posted By: Skiffman
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 5:58pm

Firstly Chris249 I was not saying that it definate but someones idea!

I would call a skiff, something that planes upwind in under 10/11 knots with an asymmetric. They normally have more modern self depowering masts with fibre/carbon tips and generally myler, carbon, kevlar sails to hold the shape. I think that if do this there arn't many boats that fit in that poeple wouldn't call a skiff except the International canoe.

Really windy like 25 30 knots true? Get some top 29er sailors out in 35 knots and then your change your mind.



-------------
49er GBR5

http://www.teamfletcherandsign.co.uk - teamfletcherandsign.co.uk
Team Fletcher and Sign campaign site


Posted By: james49
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 6:42pm

hate to upset you lot but i doubt you are going as fast as you think.  In 25knots and dead flat water our 49er used to top out at about 23knots (gps) and that felt really fast.

The world speed record is now with the windsurfers: 46.2 knots, now i bet that feels fast,  at some points on finian was clocked at 49.1knots down the 500 metre course, now thats scary

James

 



Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 25 Nov 04 at 9:44pm

this is about like the bar storys how you almost died out there!!!

it always seems that you are going far quicker than you are mainly because of the proximity to the water



Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 6:23am
Originally posted by redback

Hi Chris, for me the asymmetric is part of the equation - so the 5o5 is a dinghy and the 4000 a skiff.  There are other factors which for me make a boat a skiff, trapeze, able to plane to windward, no foredeck, fully battened sails.  But I'm not hooked on the idea that they must have all these features.  I'd include the B14 (no trapeze), I'd even include the Moth at a push and both these boat have fordecks.  So for me a skiff is just shorthand for a type of boat which has taken certain ideas for the 18ft Skiff.


Yeah, but Redback, it can't be the assymetric that makes a skiff, surely, because in 100+ year history of skiffs, assys have only been around for less than 20 years. What happened when assys were coming in? Were some of the 18s (the assy ones)  skiffs and the rest not skiffs till they changed? Did the 12s and 16s  and 14s suddenly become "non skiffs" until they got assys? They were the same boat as the assy "skiffs" upwind, so where they all "skiffs" upwind and did they become 12' "skiffs" and 12' "non-skiffs" when they set their kites, depending whether they were assy or not?

And three of the classes which remain closest to the "real" skiff formula, the Historical and Classic skiffs, still use "normal" poles (well, as normal as anything that comes in four pieces is!).

Furthermore, if it's an assy that makes a skiff, then the RS 200 and RS 400 and Topaz (IIRC) and mebbe even Assy Canoe are skiffs, and that just ain't so. So it can't just be the assy, even allowing for changes in terminology.

I don't think the 12' skiffs plane to windward, but defining planing properly is a huge can of worms. I KNOW the historical skiffs don't plane to windward.

Most skiffs (16s, 12s, many 14s, Bethwaite 18s) have foredecks so it's not the lack of a foredeck.

Down here, many boats from the Sabot (like an Oppie) upwards have full battens, so it's not full battens.

Finally, not all that many ideas came from the 18; assys and (arguably) flex-tip rigs is about it.


Hurricane, re "i think the word skiff means a boat that is

1 very quick

2 for advanced sailors

3 costs alot to run

anyone else like to add any??"

Does that mean your Hurricane is a skiff? Does it mean an FD is a skiff? After all it's faster than a L 4000 or (IIRC) a B14; it's for advances sailor, and it costs a lot to run. The same applies to the Canoe and the Norfolk Punt and they are definitely not skiffs.

Finally, the "real" skiffs often don't cost the sailors a lot to run, just their sponsors and clubs!

Skiffman, I wasn't having a go at you; it's just that I think it's important to keep the term "skiff" as something that means something, not just a marketing term for boats that some big manufacturer wants people to think are skiffs.

Planing upwind may not be a skiff marker - the 16s and 12s are in Aussie terms "displacement hulls" now - the older boats were designed to plane earlier, the current ones are designed to act sort of like Moths, just slicing upwind without achieving dynamic lift above their static C of G - which is the definition of planing. Whether they are truly planing is very hard to determine. Surely we can't have a definition of "skiff" that chucks out the real skiffs?

And if we apply the definition of more RM than a classic dinghy (which is pretty simple 'cause almost no classic dinghies have more than one person using a hiking aid) AND more sail for length than a normal dinghy, then it's pretty simple. It brings in all those that are definitely skiffs and excludes all those that are definitely dinghies.


 



Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 10:14am

If nobody knows what the word "skiff" definately means, sounds like there isn't much point using it!

 



Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 1:27pm

I think that there are two main uses for the word "Skiff"

The sothern hemesphere one for all the historical skiff classes previously mentioned on the list

And the Northern hemisphere one which is a marketing term which has taken on the word "Skiff" to describe anything modern that they want people to think is fast a bit like saying you have a "Sports Car" that you use to tow your "Skiff"

 



Posted By: Lucy Lee
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 1:57pm

That's a good one Granite



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Fly Cherub!


Posted By: JimR
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 2:13pm

Granite surely has the answer here.

For "skiff" in this part of the world read "sexy".  Just a hyped up manufacturer's term meaning modern, fast, something to aspire to.

I sailed an IC for many years but would never describe it as a skiff. Yet an asymmetric IC will see off a lot of the new so-called "skiffs" in the right conditions.

What's in a name?



Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 4:21pm
well it has to be something vaguely wedge shaped, so i think huricanes
are out.... but yeah u are right, skiff is a sort of buzz word, then again it
is easier to say than 'really fast boat'

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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 6:37pm
A hurricane is wedge shaped - well 2 wedges actually. You could keep 2 very big fire doors open with one Hurricane!!!!

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 6:49pm
I cant be certain, but i do remember reading something on them once that said they were capable of up to 12 or 13 knots, just feels a lot faster that low to the water whilst working the boat that hard.

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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 26 Nov 04 at 7:46pm

excuse me i never said i thought a hurricane is a skiff

someone miss read what i said!!!

and there is no-way a cat can be a skiff!!!!!!!!



Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 1:25pm

Hurri, you wrote;


 "i think the word skiff means a boat that is

1 very quick

2 for advanced sailors

3 costs alot to run

anyone else like to add any??"

Doesn't that fit the Hurricane? It's quick, isn't it? I would have thought it's for advanced sailors, and it costs a quid doesn't it?

Na, I wasn't seriously saying a cat is a skiff. Just messing about.


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 2:55pm

Chris,

Having owned 2 Hurricanes

1, Yes Very Quick

2, Well, not the ideal learner boat

3, Does in no way cost a lot to run.  You can pick up a competitive 2nd hand boat for 5K and that is just about all you need to spend.  New jib once a year (dunno how much these days) and a few bits ofn string now and then. 



-------------
F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 4:51pm

actually they are more like 4k now so even better value for money

and with the extra cash you have u could buy an SX kit (spinny + self tacking jib) for it!!!



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by hurricane

actually they are more like 4k now so even better value for money

and with the extra cash you have u could buy an SX kit (spinny + self tacking jib) for it!!!

 

Eek... Very cheap 'mean machine'.  Now I wonder what a Hurri without jib and kite would be like single handed



-------------
F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 9:39pm
what about the skiffs in star wars?? where do they fall in the definition?

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 10:16pm

i met a guy who said he sailed a hurricane single handed quite a lot

he said it was fun up till when the gusts started to hit



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 27 Nov 04 at 10:41pm
Originally posted by hurricane

i met a guy who said he sailed a hurricane single handed quite a lot

he said it was fun up till when the gusts started to hit

 

But was he a 'large gent'

I'm 'only' 12 1/2 stone.......



-------------
F16 GBR 553 - Hungry Monster - For sale
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
I also talk sport http://www.letshaveachat.com - here


Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 10:46am

Firstly I like Granite's referance to a sports car.  Many call a Hyundai Tiburon or Interga Type R for example, a sports car........    But realy!!!!!!!

OK, I see a true skiff as only the 12s, 14s, 16s, 18s + the historicals ie 6, 8, 10 ect to 18s.

Skiffs as far as I see it is a class name used for these boats that originated in the early 1900s in Australia.  ie 16 foot skiff.  The boats are not known by any other name.

A Cherub is a Cherub (Dinghy) and a 12 foot skiff is a 12 foot skiff.

A 29er is a skiff trainer but not a skiff.....  It is a 29er.

A 49er is not called a skiff, it is a 49er...... Dinghy.  A very fast high performance dinghy but a dinghy non the less.

The Skiff is an important part of Australian sailing history and I feel the term skiff is thrown about to readly.  A 49er I feel is not a skiff for example but is skiff like in some aspects.

Call a skiff a skiff and other classes buy their class names.

Feel free to flame away

 



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http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com


Posted By: Skiffman
Date Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 3:39pm

I think that the 29er and 49er are definatly skiffs!!!!

But don't Cherubs and 12 foot skiffs compete in the same worlds?!?! So how can a cherub not be a skiff.

 



-------------
49er GBR5

http://www.teamfletcherandsign.co.uk - teamfletcherandsign.co.uk
Team Fletcher and Sign campaign site


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Nov 04 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by Skiffman

[

But don't Cherubs and 12 foot skiffs compete in the same worlds?!?! So how can a cherub not be a skiff.




Its not unknown for Cherubs to be rigged as Twelves and sail in the 12 Interdoms, and there's kind of a standing invite - but then in box rule classes if it measures you can sail - but it doesn't happen every time. There's a UK Cherub rigged as a Twelve about, Draycote I believe it lives at - and its quite a machine. I've had a little yacht in it and it has a huge grin index:-)

As for what's a skiff. A akiff is I guess one of the Sydney classes which were traditionally called skiffs, which were originally sailed by working folk, not the yacht classes, and which usually have multiple rigs. In current terms they are for sure the 12s, 16s and 18s, the 14s to an extent. I'd not claim a Cherub to be one but...

I think you can usefully talk about a skiff type, which is a boat that in design philosophy etc would be similar to the actual skiffs of its era. The Cherub since 1970ish is that I'd say, the 49er and 29er too, with the slight caveat that the sliffs tend to be quite short for the crew weight they carry, whereas the Bethwaite boats run long and thin. Also the NZ Javelin and R and a bunch of other Aus classes.

On that basis I'd say the I14s up to the 80s weren't skiff types, nor were pre Farr/Bethwaite/Bowler era Cherubs. The I14s of now are, the 5 Tonner not a hope!

In singlehander the word has different meanings - ie skiff Moth is as opposed to scow.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 30 Nov 04 at 2:28am
Originally posted by Skiffman

I think that the 29er and 49er are definatly skiffs!!!!

But don't Cherubs and 12 foot skiffs compete in the same worlds?!?! So how can a cherub not be a skiff.

 


With respect, Skiffman, surely the definition must be based on something more than "I think" or "it looks cool and goes fast".

From the very first 12' skiff Interdominion (there is no worlds for 12s) they allowed dinghies to compete - but only because the 12' skiffs wanted to beat up on them to show how fast they were. In fact, the dinghies won, and the skiffies were REALLY peeved off; it got quite nasty around the club because no-one called the dinghies (sorta like old Cherubs) skiffs and they wanted skiffs to win. They knew that skiffs were different from dinghies.

The same thing happened when the Cherubs started racing; the 12'er guys normally speak of "skiffs" and of Cherubs, racing with the skiffs. Maybe it's like Hobie Tigers and F18s, the other F18s can race with the Tigers but that doesn't mean they ARE Tigers.

In the second Interdominion, the rules allowed a cat to enter and clean up. So unless we'll call a cat a skiff, we can't go on what is allowed to race in the Interdominions to rule what a "skiff" is.

Tornado Alive sails 18s and other skiffs, and other classes that are claiming to be skiffs but aren't, so he has a good viewpoint. I'm actually willing to call a 49er a skiff, but hmmmm, maybe I should apply one of my own rules and say that in the bar and the Squaddie or Belmont 16s and see if I survive.....

I just realised, reading Jim's post, one probable reason why the term is viewed  differently up north and down here.  From a northern hemisphere viewpoint, the Cherub, the Javelin and other southern dinghies only arrived there in the late '60s, and they were lighter than the "normal" UK dinghies, so they seem a lot like a skiff. Then there was the big noise about skiff types when the B18/49er/5000/Boss/4000/B14 arrived, and the "skiff" tag fitted the new wave.

But from an Australian/NZ viewpoint, the dinghies actually lead the way towards the modern lightweight boat. The skiffs were lumbering round-bilged overweight non-trap beasts until dinghy influences like the NZ IA and Z and I-14 dinghies, the Gwen 12, the Cherub, the FD, the Sharpie, and the VJ arrived to show the skiffies what you could do with trapezes, lightweight hard chined hulls, efficient rigs etc. The 12s were influenced by G12s and Cherubs, the 14s were influenced by VJs, the 16s were influenced by G12s and VJ-type 14s, and the 18s were influenced by FDs and Sharpies. In all cases, the lumbering old skiffs were killed by the dinghies.

There was actually a lot of venom directed at those who  brought the lightweight dinghy-style designs into the skiff classes. In every case, the skiffies told the lightweights to go away. Now, of course all of this is ancient history, but it shows that the real "skiff breakthrough" actually came from dinghies, and was then pushed onto a rather resisting, grumpy and conservative skiff world.

So here we didn't historically think of a light dinghy (ie Cherub) as a skiff-style boat; in fact it's more correct to say that the modern skiff is a Cherub (etc) -style boat, because the Cherub/FD/G12/Sharpie/Z/VJ dinghies really created the lightweight skiff - not the other way around.

The Kiwi R Class is called a skiff these days, but it was called a dinghy when it was the most advanced dinghy in the worlds (ie 35kg hulls, two crew both trapping off racks, fully-battened high-aspect rig, all by 1974....).

Anyway, sorry for blabbing on, but this thread has really reminded me of something that I must highlight in a little project I'm working on. Thanks all .





Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 30 Nov 04 at 9:36am
The word 'Skiff' is simply a hull design philosophy, it can't be defined by numbers.  The term originally described rowing boats so anything to do with sails is outside its meaning.  It is obvious that we all have a very similar idea of what we consider a 'skiff style' dinghy.  Surely as long as we all know what eachother are talking about its fine. 

-------------
FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: kissmyrs
Date Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 2:22pm
I was told back in th day that skiff mean't a boat that is designed to plane upwind and down.
 
Rich O


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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 9:44pm
I must apologise firstly for writing so much, and then I'll stop posting on this thread. However I thought I might mention that (after interviewing many skiff designers) there doesn't seem to be any really distinct skiff "hull philosophy"; the 12s are very different from the 16s, the 18s are different from both. Seeing that they have been development classes, they've had an enormous range of shapes - everything from scows to skinny (and beamy) "knifing" displacement hulls.

And some people have been speaking of "skiff-style" National 12s, which seems to show what happens when terms just start getting thrown around. How a boat with no 90ft2 of sail can get compared to a skiff, when the comparable skiff carries about 700 ft2, is strange indeed. It shows how a term can become rather meaningless quite quickly.

I'm no designer, but after studying the history (to the stage of ringing around many of the great sailors (current and old), having a library of designs going back to the early years of this century, going to the central library to go through newspaper and magazine articles of the 1800s) AND talking to most of the designers (new and old), there seems that there is no "skiff philosophy" in hull designs - or not more than there is a "British philosophy" that covers everything from Norfolk Punts to Int. Cadets and RS 800s. Look at a 12 v an 18' skiff; one is round-bilged normally while the other has chines, one has wings while the other doesn't, the B18s have Vee sections while the 12 has U sections.

You can't often just take a philosophy from one skiff class and whack it on another, it seems. Russell Bowler had major problems trying to take his 12' skiff ideas and put them into an 18' skiff. whereas Bruce Farr had no problems taking his ideas from the 14' Javelin dinghy to the 18' skiff. Similarly, the current 16 shape came not from the traditional skiffs, but from the NS14s which have no trap, no kite, only 100 ft2 of sail area, and are definitely NOT skiffs. So the current 16 "hull philosophy" came from a totally different style (in terms of shape, dynamics, etc) to the then-existing 16' skiff idea. Many also say that the post-Murray/Coxon/Hewish 12 style came from the NS14 - dinghy to skiff. Again, it underlines (to me) that there's no separate "skiff hull philosophy".

It's a valid point about the dictionary definition, but can we really use a dictionary to define sailing terms? I don't think you'll find a "blade" headsail in a dictionary, or a definition of "assy" that includes spinnakers, or "dork" that includes spinnaker poles?

The numbers do, in my looking at them so far, provide a pretty clear idea of what a skiff is, and it's an idea that has been working for the "real" skiffs (and I think, only for the real skiffs) through history. I know it's only my idea, though, so I'll shut up after one more par.

Rich O - 505s plane upwind, so do Int. Canoes, FDs, boats like Tasars sailed low and fast, Norfolk Punts (perhaps) and they are not skiffs. 12s may not "plane" upwind (haven't sailed one in ages but I think they just displace fast), 16s are "knifing" sort of boats (a bit like Moths) although I haven't sailed on for 3 years so I may be wrong), Historical skiffs don't plane upwind. So not all skiffs plane upwind, and many non-skiffs do. So it can't be planing upwind and down that makes a boat a skiff.




Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 01 Dec 04 at 11:30pm

Chris 249, don't stop, its interesting .  However I can't help feel the history is not that important. 

For me its what people mean when they use the term skiff.  And here in the UK I think they mean assymmetric, high powered, trapeze (or wings or both), upwind planner that gets many of its features from recent 18 foot skiffs.  Its not important that they have all the features of a 18 footer but anything it shares in common is likely to increase probablility of being called a skiff.  So I guess I should also include self tacking jib, open type foredeck, fully battened sails, self draining, dagger board and apparent wind ability. Now I know some boats have some of these features, take a 5o5, this certainly will plane upwind, use the apparent wind and is high powered but it takes its design themes not from current 18 footers but from more conventional dinghies and so is unlikely to be called a skiff.

One of the characteristics of skiffs seems to be they are optimised for sailing in stronger winds and as a consequence are relatively poor when it gets light.  Would we all agree that a B14 is a skiff, if so it exemplifies this last characteristic quite well?  It has a huge sail area and yet goes very badly in light winds - a 5 oh would thrash it in 5knots of wind but it would thrash a 5 oh in 15.

I guess you (Chris) would not consider either a skiff, but I think that many in the UK would agree with me - a B14 is and a 5o5 isn't.  Whatever you think it has been interesting to learn so much about the development of boats.



Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 02 Dec 04 at 6:28am

I guess with the Europeans not growing up with skiffs (as us Aussies know them) They have a different view of what a skiff is.

For me, a skiff is not a design but a boat (when it comes to sail powered skiffs)

As Chris pointed out, a die hard Skiffie would be insulted if you called a B14, 29er, 49er ect a skiff........  In OZ (home of the skiff) anyway

 

Just my opinion



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http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com


Posted By: jimmywalsh2
Date Posted: 02 Dec 04 at 10:30pm

Having thought about what constitutes a skiff it is more a type of boat rather than a concrete definition.

The following criteria comes to mind

1. Freedom of design - the less rules the better

2. Freedom of rigs

3. Use of the latest technology - carbon etc

4. A challenge to sail

5. Significant speed advantage of similar length boats.

So some boats may fit the definition when they are built but after a few years fall behind.



Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 03 Dec 04 at 12:37am
That basically writes off any one design class then...how does it fit with the 16's and 18's having one design hulls?


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 03 Dec 04 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by jimmywalsh2

Having thought about what constitutes a skiff it is more a type of boat rather than a concrete definition. The following criteria comes to mind

1. Freedom of design - the less rules the better

2. Freedom of rigs

3. Use of the latest technology - carbon etc

4. A challenge to sail

5. Significant speed advantage of similar length boats.

That could be a keelboat. Open 60? Mini-Transat?

 



Posted By: JimR
Date Posted: 03 Dec 04 at 3:13pm

..........even some cats, ORMA 60 trimarans?

It seems as though we are struggling to define "skiff" in the UK simply because the word has been over-used to describe any modern lighweight, low freeboard planing dinghy. The manufacturers have been quick to encourage this because "skiff" has become a buzz word for something modern and sexy, the lastest "must have".

Aussie skiffs are something a lot more specific. In Australia the term excludes all kinds of modern machinery that we would loosely term as a skiff.

I guess Tornado_ALIVE has hit it on the head.

 

 




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