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Which Asymmetric for teenagers?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2879
Printed Date: 18 Jul 19 at 12:51am
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Topic: Which Asymmetric for teenagers?
Posted By: sailor_420
Subject: Which Asymmetric for teenagers?
Date Posted: 19 Apr 07 at 9:49pm

Hi im new to the forum and was hoping you could help by giving me an idea on which asymmetric i could get.

Ive been looking at a few boats and narrowed it down to 3 at the moment (you could suggest some others if they're the wrong choice) the boats i was thinking of were:

  • RS 500 - Not too sure on this boat at the moment, if you have any info it would be greatly appreciated!
  • Laser vago - ive heard bad things about these boats but not sure how good or bad it actually is.
  • 29er - looks a nice boat just not sure how demanding it may be.

Im 15 about 5 ft 6 and about 8.5 - 9 stone. I have a 420 at the moment which is good its just quite slow and getting a bit bored!

Hope you can help me, thanks!




Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Apr 07 at 10:16pm
29er: no contest


Posted By: MRJP BUZZ 585
Date Posted: 19 Apr 07 at 11:40pm
A 29er does look the best choice for weight, although quite expensive.

If you want a single wire with assy and is cheap why not a buzz

A little biased i know


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Josh Preater

http://www.bu22.co.uk">BUZZING IS FUN



Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 19 Apr 07 at 11:53pm
29er got to be. I could never sail a 29er as it would of sunk but yeah for class racing nothing else!

-------------
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 19 Apr 07 at 11:59pm

The Vago is unthinkable - see other threads.

The 500 would be a strong contender if you want to stump up for a new boat.

As for the 29er, how good are you? One of our juniors switched from a Laser 3000 to a 29'er and despite class coaching days and a few month's experience is still no quicker than he was in his Laser 3000! I recall another pretty good junior who couldn't get near my Fireball on the water, let alone on PY. In my V3000 I made up time on three out of the four 29ers in the Hoo Freezer this year (and on both the 500's for that matter). 29ers are only quick if you're up to sailing them pretty well.

But why not consider a 3000? They're easier than 29ers and readily available secondhand. Lasers start at under 2000, while a new foam/epoxy V3k will only cost you 5200. Get a demo through the class association: http://www.3000class.org.uk/ - http://www.3000class.org.uk/

 



Posted By: olly_love
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 12:46am

try a twin wire boat.  i got my 14 when i was only 16 and found it pretty easy. and it is a good feeling when all ur mates are sailing 29ers and u fly past them. 



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TWO FRANK-Hunter Impala




Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 8:22am
Originally posted by olly_love

try a twin wire boat.  i got my 14 when i was only 16 and found it pretty easy. and it is a good feeling when all ur mates are sailing 29ers and u fly past them. 



Second that! My 14 cost me all of 1750 to buy. And you get to embaress all the 800s you wish!


-------------
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Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 12:12pm
I had a Laser 5000 at about 16/17ish, brilliant boat at the time and stepped straight up from a Laser 2. There is a bit of a learning curve but it is extremely worth it. 14s will be slightly easier to handle as they are lighter and the rig won't load up so much up top sailing upwind due to the difference in weight. My only gripe of the 5000 at the time was that it was an absolute nightmare to right due to the weight in the rig. Olly and Alex have made a good point but it will also be dependant on your weight and attitude to the sport, if you are a light teenager and can get nervous on the boat, rule out the 14, if not go for it and be prepared to swim initially. Other options are 29er, then convert to XX then upgrade to 49er, or possibly a cherub or a 4000. The 4000, 29er and 500 all have the advantages of they do or will have relatively competitive fleets, so if you value racing over thrill factor, they may be more appropriate, although I sailed the 5000 on PY a lot outside class racing and you do realise stepping back into other fleets that if you're fast in something like a 5k or 14, it usually stands you in good stead for hitting the front of the fleet in other classes as your boat handling skills are high. 

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine



Posted By: feva_sailor
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 12:23pm
I know your more or less looking for a Monohull, But me and my usuall crew have been sailing Topcats and Hobies latly and they can get a real turn of speed.I would probably go for the Sl16 as it is a youth cat.But its reallyy up to you i dont know what they sail at your club i would go with the best boat for you with the biggest fleet at your club.


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Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

I had a Laser 5000 at about 16/17ish, brilliant boat at the time and stepped straight up from a Laser 2. There is a bit of a learning curve but it is extremely worth it. 14s will be slightly easier to handle as they are lighter and the rig won't load up so much up top sailing upwind due to the difference in weight. My only gripe of the 5000 at the time was that it was an absolute nightmare to right due to the weight in the rig. Olly and Alex have made a good point but it will also be dependant on your weight and attitude to the sport, if you are a light teenager and can get nervous on the boat, rule out the 14, if not go for it and be prepared to swim initially. Other options are 29er, then convert to XX then upgrade to 49er, or possibly a cherub or a 4000. The 4000, 29er and 500 all have the advantages of they do or will have relatively competitive fleets, so if you value racing over thrill factor, they may be more appropriate, although I sailed the 5000 on PY a lot outside class racing and you do realise stepping back into other fleets that if you're fast in something like a 5k or 14, it usually stands you in good stead for hitting the front of the fleet in other classes as your boat handling skills are high. 


Saying that dennis when i sailed at itchenor with my m12 helm were racing against various ex olympic peeps etc. And the current 5oh world champ


-------------
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Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 12:24pm

29er, almost no need to debate it!

It's a natural progression for you from 420 to 49er! 

great value package youth boat with a good learning curve for your 420 base of skills. Simple to set up and nice to move about on (apart from your knees in a shorty in light winds- decks like gravel).

You'll get great OD racing at various levels and a decent re-sale value compared to development boats which go obsolete.



Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 2:01pm

29er but be careful to budget for new sails if needed - That puts many of the 3 - 4year old boats over the price of a brand new RS500.

Buzz does look good value  - not sure about resale though.



Posted By: Alex C
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 3:11pm
29er  -  fantastic performance, opportunity to make the most of the RYA schemes, good resale value. But can be a bit tricky to sail, depends what sort of level you sail at, or want to progress to?

I sailed a Buzz during my teens and had a fantastic time. Even though upwind its far from spectacular, I haven't matched the downwind sensation in any other boat i've sailed... but then we go into the debate about absolute speed and sensation etc...
As far as resale value goes I think prices are relatively stable, and with Wet & Windy promoting the boat with new Hyde sails I think the class has the opportunity to revitalise itself.

The disadvantage is you don't get to benefit from the RYA stuff, and the fleet is smaller. But from personal experience the boat is quite easy to sail, and a lot of fun!

I guess just look what sort of objectives you hope to achieve from owning the boat , and choose the boat from there. All the boats look decent to me, bar maybe the Vago.


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Posted By: sailor_420
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 8:54pm

Wow thats helped a lot, the 29er looks like a good choise im just not sure if me n my crew are heavy enough as i weigh 8 - 9 and he weighs about 10ish, is that heavy enough? Also what are they like in light winds as we get them quite frequently? And what sort of price is a second hand one at?

Thanks again!



Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 9:10pm
Yeah you're heavy enough for one especially if you get a lot of the light stuff.  Second hand ones range from about 3500 to 5000.  Oh yea and they're absolute dogs in light winds.....

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international moth - "what what?"


Posted By: sailor_420
Date Posted: 20 Apr 07 at 9:21pm
Do they go in light winds? The 420 is pretty rubbish in light winds always come last in handicaps and get beaten by GPs, solos etc


Posted By: Alex C
Date Posted: 21 Apr 07 at 12:59am
You'll be absolutely fine, weight is not going to make a great deal of difference unless racing very competitively. Besides you'll fly downwind. This is coming from someone who sailed a 600 for a couple of years at 9 1/2 stone, far from competitively but respectably I like to think!

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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 24 Apr 07 at 4:16pm

9 1/2 stone in a 600? oh this has made my choice for next boat so much easier.



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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: FireballNeil
Date Posted: 24 Apr 07 at 4:26pm

Originally posted by sailor_420

Do they go in light winds? The 420 is pretty rubbish in light winds always come last in handicaps and get beaten by GPs, solos etc

solos beat everything in light winds even the rubbish sailors, we get revenge when the wind blows!



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Neil



Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 24 Apr 07 at 9:08pm

Get a 29er.  Great boat.  Lots of competitive yoof to sail against.  Just don't expect to sit down ever!  and you'll need a reliable crew.

It's not as hard to sail as people sometimes make out - my main problem at 78kg (with a 40kg crew) was getting enough heeling power to keep it upright; You MUST use the kite downwind, or it just falls on top of you.  Despite the looks it's a narrow boat with relatively wide wings, whereas the RS500 and 3000 are just moderately wide boats. 

They do seem to be expensive (even 2nd hand) at the moment though.  I've seen one for 3300 but at the price it may need new sails and might have gained some weight (wooden stuff inside).

Do you have 5000 to spend?  If not, and if you don't mind being abandoned by the RYA, a good 2nd hand 3000 is under 2000.



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3604 ...lapse of reason
Javelin 558


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12 Jun 07 at 10:15pm
if your on a budget you cant wrong with a laser 5000 or 4000, im 16 and i wanted a 29erxx but i couldnt even afford a normal 29er so i picked up a good 5000 for 1 and half grand and i love it. Be warned tho the sheet load on the kite in anything over a force 4 is pretty big


although if your lucky enough to have a large enough budget just buy a 29er


Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 12 Jun 07 at 10:55pm

Get a 14 even if its a penny. You'll still have lots more fun and plus the nats are at the Royal Yacht Squadron this year :)

Alex



-------------
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Int 14 GBR 1503!!


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Jun 07 at 8:20am
Originally posted by FireballNeil

solos beat everything in light winds even the rubbish sailors, we get revenge when the wind blows!


Be thankful you dont have any British Moths or Comets around...you thought the Solo was fast in light airs try beating one of the 2 above!


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Paul
---------------------------
D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: sailor_420
Date Posted: 13 Jun 07 at 7:35pm

Yeah i was also thinking of the laser 4000. The 5000 looks like its a bit of a handfull for me at the moment. Where i sail there is a lake which is pretty small, but there is also the Dee estuary which is very large and also has pretty small waves. Crew weight is about 17 - 18 stone. Price range is about up to 2000 so that limits it a lot. So in that price range and that crew weight what options are available....if any?

Thanks again



Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 13 Jun 07 at 10:07pm
This....

http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/boats/2659" class="wikilink1" title="boats:2659" onclick="return svchk" onkeypress="return svchk - The Flying Kipper is a http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/designs/dog" class="wikilink1" title="designs:dog" onclick="return svchk" onkeypress="return svchk - Dog design and was built in the early 90s by Richard Butler and designer http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/test/doku.php/people/simon_roberts" class="wikilink1" title="people:simon_roberts" onclick="return svchk" onkeypress="return svchk - Simon Roberts . In 2004 a snout was added by the original builders to enable a fully battened Batt jib to be added to the 90s rules Batt sail plan. The rig consists of a Proctor Aluminum mast and boom and amazingly light carbon fiber bow sprit. The centre board is a excellent condition Tasar foil and the dagger board pivots in an aluminum stock. This boat is fully sorted and ready to race. All the ropes are the correct length and thickness and the rig is fully tuned. All of these factors combined helped the boat earn herself a 5th place at the 2006 nationals in Largo despite racing amongst boats with larger sail plans. Another key factor in the boats performance is her weight, although not requiring lead to be class legal she is very close to the minimum weight and one of the lightest boats of her generation.


http://www.uk-cherub.org/ -
www.uk-cherub.org

For Sale right now.


-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: Isis
Date Posted: 13 Jun 07 at 10:53pm
To follow on from the post above... that boat is posessed by some kind of speed deamon.
She has a slightly smaller sailplan than most of the fleet but shes stiff, well sorted and down to weight and repeatedly sailed past me at last years nationals in a boat with the same hull design and more rag...


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Jun 07 at 12:36am
Originally posted by sailor_420

Yeah i was also thinking of the laser 4000. The 5000 looks like its a bit of a handfull for me at the moment. Where i sail there is a lake which is pretty small, but there is also the Dee estuary which is very large and also has pretty small waves. Crew weight is about 17 - 18 stone. Price range is about up to 2000 so that limits it a lot. So in that price range and that crew weight what options are available....if any?


Thanks again



from what i know you should look at
laser 4k and 5k ( sounds like a 4k would be better for you)
buzz
iso (much like a 4000 from what ive seen)
topaz trez from what ive seen these boats are underpowered
also if u dont want a trapeze boat u cant beat an rs 200




Posted By: sailor_420
Date Posted: 14 Jun 07 at 8:07pm

Id prefer something with a trapeze because i think im keeping to 420 and this boat would just be for fun and racing on the right days. To be honest id probably prefer a boat thats not too much of a handful and not mega tippy or hard to capsize or easy to right after capsize. Ive heard the 4000 is hard to right after capsize? Is it and how hard/easy is it to capsize it?

Also anymore ideas? Ive also heard the 500 is quite a handful (over budget aswel). How would that compare to the 3000?

Thanks



Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 15 Jun 07 at 11:40pm
Yea I think the 4k is a good choice, reasonably priced good fun to sail+ weight equalisation meaning you could still be fairly competive at the lower weight range. Ps Don't get the cherub simply because i want it!  I'm selling my 12 and my crew is selling his 200 so hopefully she'll be our's

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I14 1482 For sale. PM if interested.


Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 16 Jun 07 at 8:38am
My incredibly unbiased opinion is the B14.  If you can make it to the required weight for a Laser 4k you can sail a B14.  They are hard but rewarding and much quicker than a 4k.  They also go in light winds if you force the crew onto the foredeck.

2 grand should afford you a stiff Rondar with good sails and ally stick.  Worlds coming up soon in Falmouth, should be an incredible event and the best place to learn how to sail one. 

http://www.b14.org - http://www.b14.org


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B14 GBR 772


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 16 Jun 07 at 9:21am

B14, not too much of a hand ful?

well probably not when youve got used to it but if its just for "the right days"....



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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: combat wombat
Date Posted: 16 Jun 07 at 9:50am
Having re-read the posts, 420 Sailor do you sail at West Kirby?  I sailed my B14 on the marine lake a few times but the Dee is the only option if you have a fast boat and it is blowing over 5 knots.

At 2000 you aren't going to get a 29er.  The B14 is a handful but then again so is a 5000 or an International 14.  All it takes is some learning and the class is so helpful you can't go wrong.  2000 is a good budget for a starter boat as well, getting you a solid boat with some spares.  Int 14's at that price may well be old and abused.  4000's are heavy and need weight on the board to get them upright. 

Beyond this, B14's aren't overly hard.  The other half of my boat was a 420 and 12 sailor and took to the B14 well.  I moved from Laser II's and found the learning curve steep but not insurmountable. 

See the latest issue of Y&Y for an excellent boat test of the B14.


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B14 GBR 772


Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 16 Jun 07 at 9:54pm
Originally posted by combat wombat

Having re-read the posts, 420 Sailor do you sail at West Kirby?  I sailed my B14 on the marine lake a few times but the Dee is the only option if you have a fast boat and it is blowing over 5 knots.

At 2000 you aren't going to get a 29er.  The B14 is a handful but then again so is a 5000 or an International 14.  All it takes is some learning and the class is so helpful you can't go wrong.  2000 is a good budget for a starter boat as well, getting you a solid boat with some spares.  Int 14's at that price may well be old and abused.  4000's are heavy and need weight on the board to get them upright. 

Beyond this, B14's aren't overly hard.  The other half of my boat was a 420 and 12 sailor and took to the B14 well.  I moved from Laser II's and found the learning curve steep but not insurmountable. 

See the latest issue of Y&Y for an excellent boat test of the B14.


I bought my 14 for 1750. And it consisted of a carbon mast, boom, pole, 2 Full Suits of sails, 2 Rudder (1 Fixed). A hull which was on weight and un damaged. And all the usual trimmings.
Oh yea and it still makes 800s look slow. My 14 always leaves me with a grin on my face :)
Alex


-------------
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Int 14 GBR 1503!!


Posted By: sailor_420
Date Posted: 16 Jun 07 at 10:00pm
How heavy do you have to be for a 14. I think we're a bit light!


Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 16 Jun 07 at 10:43pm
Depends on what you meen by light. How much in kilos? The good thing about 14s is that you can depower them so much.  And they are very nippy 

-------------
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Int 14 GBR 1503!!


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 17 Jun 07 at 6:31am

I agree with BBSC, they depower more than any other dinghy i have sailed. We have taken out my 14 in some silly winds, but works well in the light stuff.

You definitely wouldnt regret having a 14, must admit, the smiles dont wear off

They are a blast off wind.

 



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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: sailor_420
Date Posted: 17 Jun 07 at 4:52pm
In kilos like 115 - 120 (without gear)


Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 17 Jun 07 at 6:44pm
Well Sailor 420. I would say get a test sail. If you asked very nicely i may let you and your crew come and have a go in mine ( when its all put back together) and you could see if it was too much of a handfull or not.
Alex
IMO 120 kilos is on the light side. But everything is worth a go :) At least youd be really quick downwind


-------------
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www.allgoodfun.com
Int 14 GBR 1503!!


Posted By: sailor_420
Date Posted: 17 Jun 07 at 9:00pm
Ahh yeah i forgot i know its out of my price range but whats the crew weight of the Rs500?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25 Jun 07 at 6:42pm
i think the rs 500 is the same as a 29er (120kg) watch out with the 14, if dont think you can handle a laser 4000( you have enough weight to right it though trust me)you would struggle with a 14 especially being under the ideal weight range just adding to the problem ull face, a b14 is a gd boat but i was under the impression you needed to be heavier to handle it. If u sail on a small lake have you considered somthing like a rs200 or a hobie 405


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 25 Jun 07 at 7:26pm

now that was a stupid post, it has been duely edited, next time o shall read the posts above.



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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: Smight at BBSC
Date Posted: 25 Jun 07 at 7:52pm
My crew and I took BBSC Faithful's 14 out at the weekend it was lightish winds with a few good gusts. I'm virtually new to trapezing and we never twin wired a boat and we did alrite, only went in 3 times but i could imagine us being over powered in a bit more breeze and were proberbly 140 with gear

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I14 1482 For sale. PM if interested.


Posted By: sailorguy
Date Posted: 14 Jul 07 at 10:53am
Apart from being out of your budget, 500 would be great - my bro and I sail one and we are also 120kg without gear. We do have a twin trapeze kit though - lots of fun.

Before we got the 500, I tried out a 29er, and felt that although it would be great fun, we would have to put in too many hours swimming before being able to race it competitively.

Hope this helps


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RS 500 (twin wire)
Laser 157607
Laser 85446
Pico 2136


Posted By: johninda
Date Posted: 13 Aug 07 at 3:20pm
yeh get a 29er.....i have one thee fast fun but u do need to work hard to keep it upright!

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29er - 167
Hobie 405 - 407


Posted By: The Big Wednesday
Date Posted: 21 Feb 19 at 3:48pm
Somewhat late in the day but better late than never.   Want something more challenging than a Feva or Topaz, and the like but more manageable tham a 29-er?   The Hobie 405 was designed as the RYA Intermediate Youth Training dinghy and is ideal for teenagers, although probably not suitable for those who are adult and lardy. 

Below is a new online resource for junior sailors interested in finding out about the HOBIE 405, a performance dinghy that was much ahead of its time in many respects. The Hobie 405 was designed from the ground up as the RYA intermediate youth training dinghy, not a leisure boat with go-faster add-ons.

With great build quality, an asymmetric, single wire and PY of 1089 it  ticks a lot of teenage boxes and still offers a manageable and very affordable entry into real asymmetric sailing for younger sailors.  With competitive 2nd hand examples often around the 500.00 mark with combi, what's not to like?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/309480016377777/?ref=gs&fref=gs&dti=1026807747364902&hc_location=group" rel="nofollow - https://www.facebook.com/groups/309480016377777/



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Feb 19 at 7:37pm
Why not start a new thread, rather than scattergunning the forum with the same message?



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446



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