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Boats meeting on same tack

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=251
Printed Date: 16 Apr 24 at 3:15pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Boats meeting on same tack
Posted By: redback
Subject: Boats meeting on same tack
Date Posted: 13 Oct 04 at 12:22pm
Who is to blame?  2 boats on port tack (the faster but less pointy one to windward) pass across the stern of a starboard tacker.  The starboard tacker then tacks to port, fluffs it and bears away a bit, thus trapping the fast boat between the tacker and the leeward boat.  The fast boat could have maintained his course and knocked a chunk out of the tacking boat but instead tried to slip between but in fact touched both with no damage.



Replies:
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 13 Oct 04 at 3:01pm

If I understand correctly. Starboard tacker then becomes windward boat. Did not leave enough room to complete his manouvre therefore in the wrong. Faster boat correctly attempts to avoid collision and touches both. Starboard tacker should do turns. Not sure about the others. My humble oppinion I expect there are some sailing lawyers who will prove me wrong.



Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 13 Oct 04 at 5:26pm
yeah i would say starboard tacker is in the wrong.

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 13 Oct 04 at 11:37pm

2 parts to this.

First Starbaord tacker has fouled in the process of manovering while the other 2 are trying to keep clear.

 

Second, assuming the Windward of the 2 port tackers has called for water to avoid, then there is (some) onus for the slow boat to give enough room for the fast port tacker to avoid the (manovering) stbd tacker.

Fairly sure about my first point, not so sure about the second. 

Where is there an Itnl umpire when you need one ?



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 14 Oct 04 at 3:35pm

Redback which boat were you.

Scooby Windward boat could have called for room to avoid collision but ther isnt always time for the calls. Collision avoidance is the overiding rule and if he had nowhere to go then minimal damage is the next best option.



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 14 Oct 04 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by rogerd

Redback which boat were you.

Scooby Windward boat could have called for room to avoid collision but ther isnt always time for the calls. Collision avoidance is the overiding rule and if he had nowhere to go then minimal damage is the next best option.

 

Yes, I kinda assumed fast would have called for water to avoid.  There should always be time for calls as you should always be looking for these kinds of problems in advance (esp in a cat when (in some wind) you never drop below 12 kts except when t or g)



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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 15 Oct 04 at 10:00am

Yes I was in the fast boat (Laser4000).  The boat to leeward was a N12 and the one to windward a Wayfarer.

One of the problems of sailing a fast boat is that everybody underestimates (including the fast boat) how quickly situations can change, and if you have to bear away a bit, even more so.  Coming as we did from behind and having to sail a little free to get around the starboard tacker meant that the N12 didn't realise we were there until we were.  Also it all happened so quick that we didn't get a chance to hail.  No damage done and we seem agreed that the Wayfarer was in the wrong.



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 04 at 11:20am
Redback, give PLENTY of warning.  From sailing Hurricanes and (now) I17 where you are travelling quick when there is breeze I am trying to estimate what boats 500mtrs away may be doing in 30 seconds time.  It may not be explicity mentioned in the rules, but it can be an idea to let people know you are there and going much faster than they are and that you may require room for a STBD boat in a while. 

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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 15 Oct 04 at 11:22am
Redback - you seem to be having lots of fun with Wayfarers!!

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Coolhand
Date Posted: 15 Oct 04 at 1:40pm

Could the fast boat have ducked the slower leeward boat?



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 15 Oct 04 at 2:14pm

Yes I do have trouble with Wayfarers.  There are a few at the club and then when I go off to the Medway there are quite a few there.  I have nothing against them though I would caution everybody - the have the biggest, slowest moving, wind shadow.

Good advice from the cat sailors - I should shout a lot more.  As for bearing away beneath the N12 - it wasn't going to be necessary and we were close to the top mark and so I wanted to pop out in front of all the slower boats and tack for it.

More anticipation is required on my part especially as this particular occasion was on my home reservior which isn't really big enough for a 4000.

http://BoughBeechSC.org.uk - http://BoughBeechSC.org.uk



Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 15 Oct 04 at 3:11pm

If it is too small it must be fun for the RS700's you have there? 1 person , 1 boat, 1 trapeze, 2 sails blocking the view of the one pair of eyes on board and gusty conditions on a small reservoir. Is this not e recipe for carnage?

Then we are back to the safety issue of mixing conventional and assymetric.



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 15 Oct 04 at 4:27pm

He has my admiration - his boat handling is fantastic.  In truth he's only here occasionally and spends some of his time at Eastbourne and on the circuit.  He is a truly awesome sailor and during our Laser Open he borrowed a boat and won all five races.  His name is Andy Peake.

By the way back in the eighties we had the best Contender fleet in the country (during the winter) with a regular 10 to 12 boats out.  Most of the top guys.



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 04 at 4:32pm
I find Grafham small at times.  2 Hulls one bloke on the wire, nearly 14sqm mainsail, 19sqm kite, handicap faster than a 49er....

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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: gmkjr
Date Posted: 16 Oct 04 at 9:41pm

Take a look at Rule 64.1(b), which provides for exoneration of fouls caused by a third boat breaking a rule.  After starboard (S) began her tack, she was obligated to keep clear of both port tack boats. When she reached a close-hauled course, S was a windward boat, and was still obligated to stay clear of both of the port-tack leeward boats.

So protest S, and if PL protests, be prepared to argue that it was necessary (for PW) to alter course to avoid the collision, and that the contact was caused by S's failure to stay clear, rather than by (PW's) inattention.

Remember also that when S crossed ahead of PW and PL, she was an obstruction, and so PL was obligated to give PW enough room to pass astern of S.

 



Posted By: Phil
Date Posted: 27 Oct 04 at 4:53pm
Don't forget that there is NO requirement to call for water - i.e the boat to leeward should be keeping as much attention on the stbd tacker (and keeping clear...) as the windward L4000!

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Phil


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 27 Oct 04 at 7:08pm

It seems I (the Laser4000) is exonerated.  That's good news since being in the faster boat I often find myself steaming into a situation which then suddenly gets complicated.

Sailing a fast boat like a 4000 is difficult but also onerous.  Inertia (momentum) is proportional to the square of speed so a collision with a 4000 is likely to be very distructive.  Also being an assymetric there is a distinct blind spot to leeward.



Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 27 Oct 04 at 8:43pm
While not the case here don't forget you have to give the other boats) the opportunity to keep clear but can assume the other boat(s) will be handled in a seaman like way!

Unless the situation is very clear and you have witnesses a protest is a bit too much of a lottery. It would be much better if everyone (while pushing the rule boundaries) acted in a sporting way!

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: Martin Smethers
Date Posted: 28 Nov 04 at 7:28pm

Correct

Originally posted by rogerd

If I understand correctly. Starboard tacker then becomes windward boat. Did not leave enough room to complete his manouvre therefore in the wrong. Faster boat correctly attempts to avoid collision and touches both. Starboard tacker should do turns. Not sure about the others. My humble oppinion I expect there are some sailing lawyers who will prove me wrong.



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Martin Smethers



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