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OCS re start

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1663
Printed Date: 27 Jan 21 at 6:32am
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Topic: OCS re start
Posted By: boatshed
Subject: OCS re start
Date Posted: 18 Apr 06 at 3:43pm

Clarification needed.  Boat A is OCS and returning to the pre start side of the line ( round the ends rule not in force).  Boat clears the line but and tacks fully through 180 degs to re start.  The tack is completed to leeward and within two boat lengths of Boat B, who is a late starter.  Boat A  ends up slightly behind and leeward of Boat B.

Does Boat A have luffing rights  on Boat B ?

For information, the start was a reaching start in light winds.



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Steve



Replies:
Posted By: Olly4088
Date Posted: 18 Apr 06 at 4:12pm
I have one for everyone aswell.  Does a boat on the startline that is not moving with sails flapping and not under way have any rights at all?

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Phantom 1298


Posted By: John Wilson
Date Posted: 18 Apr 06 at 5:40pm

Hmm, I think in the first one it depends where you complete your tack. If it was behind the late starter you have no luffing rights, if you then become overlapped to leeward, as you have come from behind. If it was completed with the overlap existing it is an "instentaneous overlap" & you can luff to China.

On the sail flapping thing, you have all the usual rights even if you are not under way with the sails flapping (ie starboard, windward, leeward, etc) but if you start moving backwards you have no rights. Also if you have no way on then you almost have more rights as "room to keep clear" takes alot longer! If you were to try & luff such a boat before a start you would have to give them time to get there sheet in & to point up which means that "room to keep clear" has to be quite alot for such a boat & can take a long time! An over-agressive luff (ie one that does not allow room to keep clear in a seaman like way for the conditions) could mean that you would have to do turns!

I hope this stuff helps & that my interpretations are not wrong!



Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 18 Apr 06 at 5:53pm

I think the first question refers to the effects of rule 20. Boat A has no rights on anyone until completely on the pre-course side of the line. Once there, the usual rules on acquiring luffing rights apply, which John has described.

And yes a stationary boat on the line has rights. I speak from experience on the matter, having once sailed smack into the stern of one while completely preoccupied with another boat luffing me. I cracked their rudder and it was an expensive morning. 



Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 18 Apr 06 at 6:39pm
when you are sitting on the ine sails flapping, you don't have to anticipate what another boat is about to do, don't listen to calls of "up,up,up" from a boat clear astern. You only have to keep clear of him when he becomes overlapped, and then you have to respond- this may take some time for you to get enough speed to steer- if he hits you in this period he's in the wrong. It will probably be his word against your in the protest room though- he'll say you didn't move & bore down him.

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 9:01am
If you are stationery on the line with sails flapping then there is a good chance you will 'slip' sideways as you shet in and prepare to go.

If you hit the boat who has gone below you and then pointed up I would argue that he did not give you enough time to respond or give you sufficient room. Of course witnesses in this are always key.

We had an incident 2 weeks ago in our Laser fleet (always them isn't it). One guy reached below most of the fleet then started screaming for the rest of the fleet to head up. Much debate ensued on the start line! We had a long chat about it afterwards (they asked me to join in as I was witness to it all). The conclusion I came to was that the guy who reached of did have luffing rights however he does have to give all the boats above him time to respond which is a very long time when there are 5 or 6 boats above you moving slowly on the start line.

Paul



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 9:09am
To be absoulutely clear Rule 20 does not affect whether you have established rights - only when they begin to apply.  Thus if you are overlapped on completion of your tack then you have luffing rights, but you can not use them until you are completeley on the pre-course side.


Posted By: Contender 541
Date Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 9:49am
If you were to have no rights whilst sitting stationary with the sails flapping, then 80% of the Laser fleets would be in BIG trouble 3 minutes before race start

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When you find a big kettle of crazy it's probably best not to stir it - Pointy Haired Boss

Crew on 505 8780



Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 19 Apr 06 at 12:39pm

Originally posted by jeffers

If you are stationery on the line with sails flapping then there is a good chance you will 'slip' sideways as you shet in and prepare to go.

If you hit the boat who has gone below you and then pointed up I would argue that he did not give you enough time to respond or give you sufficient room. Of course witnesses in this are always key.


I think you are all quite right that you can't slide in to leeward then luff up without giving a near staionary boat chance to keep clear however he has no right to bear away from what ever postion he is in once the startgun goes. If i was to leeward of a boat that sheeted in slipped sideways and hit me there is only one word that will come out of my mouth.  If he hasn't protected his space to leeward giving him space to bear away he should wait until there is space, if that means he has to sit there sails flapping in the same postion as he was before I stole his gap so much the better for me!



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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!



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