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RRS 18 Rule change proposal

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13944
Printed Date: 13 Aug 22 at 6:19am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: RRS 18 Rule change proposal
Posted By: JimC
Subject: RRS 18 Rule change proposal
Date Posted: 24 May 22 at 1:06pm
Copied from https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/1531-2022-test-rule-18-information-please-read-before-posting?forum_id=15" rel="nofollow - https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/1531-2022-test-rule-18-information-please-read-before-posting?forum_id=15 .

The World Sailing Rule 18 Working Party is trying to find ways to simplify rule 18 (Mark-Room) without making significant changes to the current game. We have created a test rule 18 for 2022 which is 20% shorter than the current rule, removing much extraneous and complex wording. It contains simplifications such as making mark-room the same for all inside boats whether they have the right-of-way or not and whether the leeward mark is a single mark or a gate mark, creating a clear end point for when rule 18 stops applying, and allowing boats to gybe at the windward or offset marks when their proper course is to gybe.

The Rule 18 WP is inviting sailors and race officials around the world to study the test rule, take the 2022 Test Rule 18 Quiz, and if possible use the test rule in their racing between now and July 15, 2022.

To take the virtual 2022 Test Rule 18 Quiz, https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/22G2XN3" rel="nofollow - click here

If you are interested in organizing the use of the 2022 Test Rule 18 between now and July 15, 2022, or know of any fleets, clubs or classes which may be interested, email Dave Perry

To access the 2022 Test Rule 18 information online site, https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1288MqBrGwAozgr92AwKA5j6TFiTvBEQl?usp=sharing" rel="nofollow - click here



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 May 22 at 1:11pm
It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room.
Two reasons why I'm unconvinced, firstly that in practice its a very difficult call to make as to which boat reached the circle first, and secondly there's no real last point of certainty possible. It would be an unusual possibility, but I would be very interested to know why its considered better than the current situation that a boat which isn't overlapped never has mark room.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 May 22 at 9:06pm
Read it, then started the quiz, got to the explanation part and realised I didn't have Time to compare the old and the new. I am pleased that the rules are being looked at, but, replacing one set of complicated rules with another is a pointless exercise.
I believe the rules are fine as they are, massively complicated, but have developed organically over the years, clubs can simplify if they need.

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Robert


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 



Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 

In that drawing, if marks are left to port, 1 will bear away around about the edge of the zone, either creating an overlap or reasonable doubt.

Personally I would have the whole rule re-written based on a flowchart or something.

I have seen confusion at a leeward mark between asy boats entering the zone from the sides and blow-along boats entering from the top. People's honest, sincerely held beliefs about the sequence of events are often quite different, because they view from different points. Applying the rules is the easy bit sometimes.

I suppose it's a big ask to expect the same rules to work well for skiffs doing 20 knots and mirrors struggling to stem the tide.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 May 22 at 7:13pm
If I was boat 1, I would go another boat length, then gybe and blast the for the mark, gybe again for port rounding, sure to beat 2, give 3 a bit of a fright, but should beat her.

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Robert


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 25 May 22 at 7:27pm
I was mainly looking for what the current rules are for boats 1 and 2. 

My understanding is that in the proposed new rules that 1 would have to give room to 2 

18.2  Giving Mark-Room
(a) When the first of two boats reaches the zone,
       (1)  if the boats are overlapped, the outside boat at that moment shall give the inside boat mark-room.
       (2)  if the boats are not overlapped, the boat that has not reached the zone at that moment shall give the other boat mark-room.

They clearly aren't overlapped because 2 is clear astern of 1 at the point 2 reaches the zone. 

My confusion is on the current rules. It sounds as if with 18.2b that even if boat 2 was half way into the zone but 1 is still clear ahead as it reaches the zone 1 is entitled to mark room. 

I think in the real world you wouldn't see this scenario as 1 would just gybe heading for the mark and be overlapped anyway, I'm just curious on how to apply the rules here correctly.




Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 25 May 22 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by 423zero

If I was boat 1, I would go another boat length, then gybe and blast the for the mark, gybe again for port rounding, sure to beat 2, give 3 a bit of a fright, but should beat her.
If I was boat 1, I'd have gone 'right hand down a bit' swinging my transom around to put 2 in an overlap and demanded mark room. If I was surely clear ahead, I wouldn't be off over there in the first place? If you're steering to miss the mark by 3 boatlengths for no immediate reason, what are you expecting to happen?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 May 22 at 8:14pm
Me too, but the helm put the boat there, then had a strop, threw the tiller at me and said if you can do better, carry on.

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 May 22 at 9:40pm
AIUI with the current rules boat 1 gets mark room from 2 & 3, being clear ahead when a boat reaches the zone, and boat 3 gets mark room from 2.

If I understand the experimental rule correctly then boat 2 gets mark room from 1 & 3, and boat 1 mark room from 2.

It would be interesting to hear the logic, and also how the last point of certainty principle would be handled, since I should have thought it rather hard to judge which boat had entered the zone first with widely separated boats like the sketch. We do need to remember, though, this is just a test rule, its not even got as far as being a proposed change.


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 25 May 22 at 10:05pm
Interesting that I've never considered the outside boat to get mark room while being the outside boat purely by being clear ahead. 

Tactically if you were overlapped outside approaching the zone you could head up massively to ensure you're clear ahead, all be it not heading anywhere near the mark.

Here boat 1 would get mark room from 2?





Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 May 22 at 8:39am
I think most folks have simply thought of it as the boat behind not getting mark room when there's no overlap. It's not, after all, really an inside boat if there's no overlap!

With the rules as they are the trouble with any attempt to break overlap by a big change of course at the last second is the "last point of certainty" rule - the presumption that if its uncertain that an existing overlap was broken just before the zone then it wasn't and vice versa.




Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 26 May 22 at 9:20pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 

Another way to consider that is that *by definition* you cannot be (clear) behind if you reach the zone first. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 May 22 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Another way to consider that is that *by definition* you cannot be (clear) behind if you reach the zone first. 

Trouble is I think you can. If you consider the boat clear behind entering the zone directly on the rhumb line, and the boat ahead entering the zone at about 10 o'clock


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 26 May 22 at 10:11pm
Hmmm, I see what you mean but if you consider the race to be a race to a series of waypoints rather than the one furthest downwind, then the first boat to enter the zone is the one nearest the waypoint and therefore ahead. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 May 22 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Hmmm, I see what you mean but if you consider the race to be a race to a series of waypoints rather than the one furthest downwind, then the first boat to enter the zone is the one nearest the waypoint and therefore ahead. 

Definitions.

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap

One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.


So ahead and astern is only related to the position of the boats, not to the position relative to the course.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 26 May 22 at 10:34pm
Change the definition of that then, whilst reworking rule 18.  Might cause confusion in a match race situation where boats are sailing away from the mark though!


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 9:48am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by A2Z

Hmmm, I see what you mean but if you consider the race to be a race to a series of waypoints rather than the one furthest downwind, then the first boat to enter the zone is the one nearest the waypoint and therefore ahead. 

Definitions.

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap

One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.


So ahead and astern is only related to the position of the boats, not to the position relative to the course.

That is how I understand it. There was a situation at an open this year where there was a line of 6 boats 1 - 6 numbered from inside to outermost) abreast approaching a gybe mark followed a couple of boat lengths astern by two more boats (7 & 8) side by side. The first 6 boats spread out to gybe and gybed into line heading for the mark at 90ş to the course of the boats following from the last mark. Only the three nearest the mark could have been in the zone but, immediately after gybing, the outermost shouted "no overlap" to the following two. In my view there can be no argument that the following boats had a clear overlap at that point and also that the outermost boat could not have been in the zone. So does the call rest on whether the following boats reached the zone before or after the overlap was established by '6' gybing?



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 2:09pm
If they stayed parallel, it wouldn't matter, if they gybed one after the other to form line astern, probably 4 5 & 6 could still be outside the zone. 7 & 8 have the water if they get there first?

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 3:26pm
Yes that was my take on the situation. In the event 6 called "no overlap" on 7 which 8 disputed. In the event no contact was made and 7 & 8 decided staying out of the ways likely to be quicker than getting tangled up at the mark.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 7:55pm
Would have been interesting if there had been a collision with, let's say six, which would have been the one most likely to be outside the zone. What rules would have been called?

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 10:43pm
Well, 7 was actually clear ahead of 6 at the point when 6 first entered the zone, not sure if 7 was in the zone before 6 or just after but either way I think 18.2 b covers it.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 23 Jun 22 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Well, 7 was actually clear ahead of 6 at the point when 6 first entered the zone, not sure if 7 was in the zone before 6 or just after but either way I think 18.2 b covers it.

7 was clear ahead of 6?

Please could you drawer a diagram as I can't vision it.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Jun 22 at 9:27am
At P1 1 - 6 were clear ahead of 7 & 8 after they had gybed 7 & 8 were clear ahead (by the definition of 'clear ahead') of 6 and probably 5. There diagram iOS not accurately to scale but the relative positions of the three relevant boats are substantially correct. The skipper of 6 would probably see things differently but I can't see how he could argue that he had entered the zone before gybing.

 


6 is red, 7 is green and 8 is blue


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 24 Jun 22 at 12:02pm
I wouldn't agree they were clear ahead in p2, the second they gybed they were overlapped

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap 
One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.

I would say neither are clear astern of each other and therefore are overlapped and they meet the criteria of rule 18 and sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind

The result is the same though, 7+ 8 are overlapped inside of 4, 5 + 6


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Jun 22 at 1:40pm
Yes, you're right of course. As you say neither is clear astern of the other. Thumbs Up

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Jun 22 at 5:17pm
Would make a interesting race to set a course like 'the magic roundabout', Swindon if you have never heard of it, brilliant in the rush hour

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Robert


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jun 22 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Would make a interesting race to set a course like 'the magic roundabout', Swindon if you have never heard of it, brilliant in the rush hour


Set it in training a while ago. You had a central mark with a ring if buoys outside of it, maybe 5. You sail round an outer buoy, round the middle one to the next outer, and so on. With several boats, it becomes a lot of fun. Best done in plastic boats.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 27 Jun 22 at 2:59pm
I set a square course once,  in normal club racing..
Sail round the square,
Then from number 1 pin sail to number 2 and back,
Then from Number 1 to sail to number 3 and back,
Then from Number 1 to sail to number 4 and back
The sail the square again..

I didn't ring the finishing bell for the commodore who sailed the wrong course...


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Still sailing in circles


Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 27 Jun 22 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by 423zero

Would make a interesting race to set a course like 'the magic roundabout', Swindon if you have never heard of it, brilliant in the rush hour


Set it in training a while ago. You had a central mark with a ring if buoys outside of it, maybe 5. You sail round an outer buoy, round the middle one to the next outer, and so on. With several boats, it becomes a lot of fun. Best done in plastic boats.

Yes the "flower" course - round the edge of each petal in turn coming back to the centre each time.

As for the "magic roundabout" isn't that going in any direction you wish as long as you take the marks to starboard (UK driving) ??


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Jun 22 at 5:32pm
Every access road comes to a mini roundabout, there is a large centre island, the mini island you go around clock wise, you then go around the large island anti clockwise, when you get to your exit mini island, you revert to clock wise and leave as normal, there are other permutations for turning left into the adjacent road. Works surprisingly well.
https://images.app.goo.gl/brSApRmGXJpnR56C7

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Robert


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 27 Jun 22 at 8:46pm
IIRC you can navigate the central roundabout either clockwise or anti clockwise…
And the mini-roundabouts either clockwise or anti-clockwise…

No penalty turns though!


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Jun 22 at 6:01am
Not forgetting taxi drivers who can also drive over the top.

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Robert



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