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RS200

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13859
Printed Date: 27 Nov 21 at 6:15am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: RS200
Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Subject: RS200
Date Posted: 11 Oct 21 at 7:59am
My club has no adult 2 man class, but I have a hankering for a 2 adult boat for me and Mrs MA42 to race in the occaisional club handicap event.  Lasers will remain the weapons of choice. 
So, theres an RS200 for sale near me, and that class does have a fine reputation. Does the RS200 have any well known problems with the hull or rig? What to look for when inspecting it?



Replies:
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 11 Oct 21 at 8:22am
Old deck, look for longitudinal crack on the underneath of the hull running where the toe straps are. Also check the deck for flex where the toe straps attach, either or both of these is a sign of the skin coming away from the stringers and is quite an expensive repair. Or, you might find some obvious changes in gel colour on the underside from the front of the case going back where the repair has previously been done, which is probably a good sign for an old boat as I've not heard of them going twice! 

Check the boom for cracks at the kicker fitting. High loads an a bit of corrosion between steel and alloy here make it a common failure point. The old poles can wear through at the bow where they are strapped down with the steel band. 

On the new deck boats (1600+) check the rudder gudgeons have been bolted on not screwed. Also check where it hangs on the trolley arms as the hull can crack at the gunwall and flair out (the older hulls had rib of reinforcement here, which also stopped the boats slipping off the trolley, shame that feature was lost). 

Generally, they are a pretty robust boat and even a very old hull, with some new fittings and ropes, and attention to settings will be competitive. Luke just won the endeavour with a 21 year old boat. 


Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 7:52am
Mozzy, thanks for this info. Keep up the good work on your YT channel, its very educational and interesting.


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 8:30am
Had one of the old ones briefly a few years ago but decided to go back to symmetric.

So apart from it being an assy which didn't suit us the three things that I found to be irritations:
It does have an open transom but don't let that fool you. If you get water in it it will take quite a while to get rid of. Inefficient bailer with a bowl shaped cockpit. So capsizes, hove to between races and launching (water comes in through the internal bung if you forget to put it in), and big seas.

Spinnaker chute was an afterthought during design so it's a bit tight and does take a lot of wear because it sticks up. Ours was coming apart at the seams and was near impossible to repair. Wear and tear on spinny resulting. Also extra wear and tear on the foot of the jib.

The RS 200 was advertised as a lightweight boat at the time with some ridiculous weight quoted on their website. Turns out the weight quoted was for an unfitted hull and the actual hull weight was not particularly light. RS have since amended their advertising.

No doubt good technique and  work arounds help for some of these issues


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Mark Aged 42

My club has no adult 2 man class, but I have a hankering for a 2 adult boat for me and Mrs MA42 to race in the occaisional club handicap event.  Lasers will remain the weapons of choice. 
So, theres an RS200 for sale near me, and that class does have a fine reputation. Does the RS200 have any well known problems with the hull or rig? What to look for when inspecting it?

For an asy boat, they are terribly slow.
Even slower than their PY suggests.
Their PY and reputatiuon is boosted by many very good younger sailors sailing them in strong breeze.
The 400 is a far better boat unless you are on the small side and want to sail in near gales.
There was an article in the RS class mag some years back showing the build process for a 200. The words 'brush and bucket' are apt. A lot of these boats are overweight, leak,have gone soft etc. They used to be inexpensive and many of them have had hard lives doing a lot of road miles on the circuit.
The sails have been upgraded in recent years.
RS Rudder blades of a certain vintage had a rep for cracking, even breaking below the stock.


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 3:52pm
Given they are very heavy why did they go gunwhale hung trolley? They all seem to deform on the load point.


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 4:10pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

 
The RS 200 was advertised as a lightweight boat at the time with some ridiculous weight quoted on their website. Turns out the weight quoted was for an unfitted hull and the actual hull weight was not particularly light. RS have since amended their advertising.


Good point the website still quotes 78kg for the hull weight but that must be before the fit it out and add the pole, thwart etc ... not what most of us would consider the definition of hull weight.

Says on their website that the sailing weight is 114kg so that is another 36kg of stuff on top of the hull ...

For an occasional 2 hander I'd go with a National 12 or Tasar, both far more pleasing to sail and a lot easier to pull up the beach afterwards.





Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by eric_c

For an asy boat, they are terribly slow.
Even slower than their PY suggests.
Their PY and reputatiuon is boosted by many very good younger sailors sailing them in strong breeze.

The 200 PY isn't actually that good in breeze, short hull, draggy main, small spinnaker and fairly heavy hull make it hard work upwind and slow down. Ever thought the youths that sail the boat well in wind are...you know...pretty good?


Its only sweet spot is the medium range between 5-10 knots when you're in full power mode.

The gunwale hung trolleys are only an issue on the newer ones. The benefit of the gunwale hung when done right is it removes the dents you get on the bottom of the hull when sat on a cradle for years. 


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by eric_c

For an asy boat, they are terribly slow.
Even slower than their PY suggests.
Their PY and reputatiuon is boosted by many very good younger sailors sailing them in strong breeze.

The 200 PY isn't actually that good in breeze, short hull, draggy main, small spinnaker and fairly heavy hull make it hard work upwind and slow down. Ever thought the youths that sail the boat well in wind are...you know...pretty good?


Its only sweet spot is the medium range between 5-10 knots when you're in full power mode.

The gunwale hung trolleys are only an issue on the newer ones. The benefit of the gunwale hung when done right is it removes the dents you get on the bottom of the hull when sat on a cradle for years. 
As I said the PY is quite slow and the boat is generally slower still.
A lot depends on what you will be race against, at some clubs you'll be in the 'medium' fleet mostly racing against singlehanders.
What courses you get will make a difference too, if you get a lot of reaches at just the right angle and no proper leeward legs, any asy suddenly looks good. If you get a lot of  runs, boats of similar PY and a proper kite will go direct and be all over you.
Some boats don't really play nicely in a mixed handicap race, IMHO the best reason to be buying one is to race against others of the same design.
Of course if you really don't care about the results, you may find any boat with a kite is more fun than one without. But then there are many other classes in the genre for less cash, if that matters?

Making a boat that size and weight with the gunwhales not up to a gunwhale-hung trolley sounds like an epic fail.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 6:19pm
What a remarkably negative thread. The 200 is a sweet little thing, if rather too small for my over substantial frame at the front end.

Its the most popular two handed class in the country for good reason. Its in the nature of the beast for a low powered boat that must be little over 12 foot waterline not to be warp speed fast, but its the quickest two hander in its size range on the PY list, and quicker than a N12, even a Lark and quite a few other longer boats. Indeed there are precious few sit on the side pole kite boats of any length that are much faster. As for the PY, due to the large numbers racing its one of the best attested numbers out there.


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 6:52pm
I agree but it appears to be quite a skittish little boat - in a breeze I suspect quite demanding!


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by L192444

Originally posted by Sussex Lad

 
The RS 200 was advertised as a lightweight boat at the time with some ridiculous weight quoted on their website. Turns out the weight quoted was for an unfitted hull and the actual hull weight was not particularly light. RS have since amended their advertising.


Good point the website still quotes 78kg for the hull weight but that must be before the fit it out and add the pole, thwart etc ... not what most of us would consider the definition of hull weight.

Says on their website that the sailing weight is 114kg so that is another 36kg of stuff on top of the hull ...

For an occasional 2 hander I'd go with a National 12 or Tasar, both far more pleasing to sail and a lot easier to pull up the beach afterwards.





Yes think the fitted out hull weight was just over 90kg

We have 3 or 4 at the club down on the south coast and they usually do very well in the club handicap races. One in particular usually cleans up with another hot on it's tail.


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 12 Oct 21 at 10:17pm
It's only really the tasar, 400, merlin and b14 which are faster as 2 man hiking dinghies. All are longer, all need more weight and certainly the 400 and merlin are heavier. So, I wouldn't say its slow for its type or slow for the size of sailor.

I'm fact, average speed during a race is often higher than tasar and close to a merlin... its just you sail quite a bit further too.

Certainly there are many places an asymmetric can be frustrating (having spent the weekend short gybing down a river bank!).

It's hard to say much about handicap, I'd say it was reasonably tough, but not massively so. It does get a boost with a few nice broad reaches but I don't find it nearly as 'on-off' as the 800 is when the wind drops.


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 8:14am
Originally posted by Mozzy

It's only really the tasar, 400, merlin and b14 which are faster as 2 man hiking dinghies. All are longer, all need more weight and certainly the 400 and merlin are heavier. So, I wouldn't say its slow for its type or slow for the size of sailor.

I'm fact, average speed during a race is often higher than tasar and close to a merlin... its just you sail quite a bit further too.

Certainly there are many places an asymmetric can be frustrating (having spent the weekend short gybing down a river bank!).

It's hard to say much about handicap, I'd say it was reasonably tough, but not massively so. It does get a boost with a few nice broad reaches but I don't find it nearly as 'on-off' as the 800 is when the wind drops.

Crew weights for Tasar and 200 are near identical. 

The RS 200 is popular because it hooked into the asymmetric boom of the late 90s and with the RS marketing budget it managed to squash the traditional couples classes. 

Internationally the RS200 is non-existent. The Tasar has much more international profile in AUS, USA and JPN. Shame it hasn’t had the commercial backing in Europe as it would better serve couples sailing in the UK as it does overseas.  




Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 8:49am
Ideal for a 200 is 120-135 kg, over 140 is hard to be competitive. Tasar had a minimum weight of 130kg where they give extra lead. I think most of tasar sailors at the worlds were over 140 and the winners were high 140s. So I'd say the ideal weights are 10-15 kilo apart. I could be convinced that the tasar ideal weight is skewed high from aussies sailing in.predominetly higher wind and the 130kg limit.

Tasar is probably more similar to Merlins (sailed on open water champ venues).
B14 and RS400 are more like 150-160 kg based on Nick and Toby being successful in both.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 10:15am
Just some numbers from last years PY list for non trapeze two handers.

11 classes without kites did 21% of races
7 classes with pole kites did 33% of races
7 classes with asymms did 46% of races
And no pole kite class managed even half as many races as either the RS400 or RS200.
Its fairly obvious where people's enthusiasm is.


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 11:38am
Originally posted by Mozzy

... the winners were high 140s.  

Dunno where you got that data from; looked like a average guy and his young daughter ...

The 3rd was RS200 champion James Peters so I'd guess they are similar weight carriers.

Either way they are only say 5% different which is close enough for most club sailors.

Anyway for most I'd say similar. Plus the Tasar has the benefit that an average couple can actually pull it up the beach without too much strain.

The hey day for couples sailing was when the Ents and 12s had huge fleets at clubs and championships.

Simple boats that novices can jump into and crew ... the introduction of spinnakers into this category of boat has driven away the casual participant ...

Clubs need boats that allow couples to sail and to be able to introduce kids and beginners. Spinnakers don't help that; they may please the experts but for accessibility to the sport they are a hinderance.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by L192444

Originally posted by Mozzy

... the winners were high 140s.  

Dunno where you got that data from; looked like a average guy and his young daughter ...

The 3rd was RS200 champion James Peters so I'd guess they are similar weight carriers.

Either way they are only say 5% different which is close enough for most club sailors.

Anyway for most I'd say similar. Plus the Tasar has the benefit that an average couple can actually pull it up the beach without too much strain.

The hey day for couples sailing was when the Ents and 12s had huge fleets at clubs and championships.

Simple boats that novices can jump into and crew ... the introduction of spinnakers into this category of boat has driven away the casual participant ...

Clubs need boats that allow couples to sail and to be able to introduce kids and beginners. Spinnakers don't help that; they may please the experts but for accessibility to the sport they are a hinderance.

Im guessing that's part of the reason why assymetrics are more popular than sym kites, the learning curve is somewhat shallower for assy. But agreed that they are not beginner friendly boats. If it was more acceptable to sail without the kite and request a suitably amended PN that would solve the problem to a great extent.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

  If it was more acceptable to sail without the kite and request a suitably amended PN that would solve the problem to a great extent.

Yeah, but that just highlights a lack of skill that some would find embarrassing ... affordable, easy to use and lightweight equipment is what we need for making the sport more accessible.

I look at the Tasar as a modern Enterprise ... which was highly popular once upon a time ...

The way the manufactures have developed the boats is a bit of an own goal IMHO. 


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 12:40pm
Jim’s comments about PY returns could be skewed if assymetric classes by their nature get kicked into handicap fleets.  We are on an estuary which tends to favour beat and running classes, of which half the race will be against the tide, assymetrics perform poorly here, and really are only appealing to those who favour the relative simplicity of the, in our case, RS400.

I tried the RS200 when they first came out, my overall impression was that if you cannot achieve a ratio between sail area and weight that facilitates apparent wind sailing, then the assymetric spinni is a waste of time.  Though in defence of the RS200 it does seem to offer the best one design racing for mixed weight/age combos, with a thriving open meeting and nationals circuit.


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 3:53pm
I think the 200 has been around long enough to say it has an enduring popularity. The obvious conclusion is that it fills enough of enough people's criteria.
The Tasar has always seemed to have an enthusiastic fan club, but not many UK sailors. Presumably it does not fill enough of enough people's criteria.
My guess is that it is too sticky and underpowered for ponds and if you have a bit space the why not have a spinnaker and trapeze


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by L192444




Originally posted by Mozzy

... the winners were high 140s.  

Dunno where you got that data from; looked like a average guy and his young daughter ...
The 3rd was RS200 champion James Peters so I'd guess they are similar weight carriers.
Either way they are only say 5% different which is close enough for most club sailors.
Anyway for most I'd say similar. Plus the Tasar has the benefit that an average couple can actually pull it up the beach without too much


Well I can vouch for it having been there when they weighed in….without being unchivalrous Nik Douglas (and her Dad) are older than you think. Also worth noting that James did not have the same pace when the breeze blew.

Finally to suggest a 200 is a difficult pull up the beach….did the one you tried have square wheels?


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by L192444


Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

  If it was more acceptable to sail without the kite and request a suitably amended PN that would solve the problem to a great extent.

Yeah, but that just highlights a lack of skill that some would find embarrassing ... affordable, easy to use and lightweight equipment is what we need for making the sport more accessible.
I look at the Tasar as a modern Enterprise ... which was highly popular once upon a time ...
The way the manufactures have developed the boats is a bit of an own goal IMHO. 


You might look at the Tasar as a modem Enterprise….but it has been around for 46 of the Enterprise’s 75 years.

I’d also respectfully suggest that the rotating mast and sliding shrouds which are key to the Tasar’s performance are a whole lot more complex and difficult for the crew than the 200’s spinnaker. Crewing the Tasar is a never ending jobs list. It’s one of the reasons I liked it.


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by Old bloke


The Tasar has always seemed to have an enthusiastic fan club, but not many UK sailors. Presumably it does not fill enough of enough people's criteria.

I think its more a factor that the RS marketing machine and their excellent events schedule and parties in the 90s and 00s was second to none  ... that was a bigger factor in the popularity than the equipment.


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 13 Oct 21 at 6:57pm
I think Nic said somewhere that they were 147. I know my parents in law are over 150 because they discussed getting a 200 and it was the low weight that was an issue (plus they love the tasar anyway). 

There is a decent fleet of tasar and 200s at HISC, but not much crossover, whereas quite a few of the tasar sailor are or were recently in merlins. So the weight difference between the two is significant enough for the average sailor at club level and enough difference for the two to cohabit the same club happily. 

Generally my point is, if you're 115-135 kilo, then a 200 is probably as fast as you will go whilst staying competitive) without sticking a trapeze on. 

I do sympathize with the evaluation of the 200 not really hitting it's PY inland, and it's actually still quite difficult in most places unless you have broad reaches. The spinnaker makes for interesting racing, but if you judge it by laps times only then it's a very questionable addition. At the endeavour Stu Bithell did away with it and straight lined the shore doing quite nicely, the laser boys gained a few boat doing the same. 

However, I am not sure the tasar is an obvious solution to the 200s deficiencies. It really sticks below 7 knots and a 200 will beat it on most points of sail except dead downwind. The 200 kite can be frustrating in fluky light conditions and constricted waters, the the Tasars tacking mast and sliding shrouds, plus the mainsheet / traveller set up can make the repetitive tacks and gybes quite the task. 

The Ent really is a great boat in that regard, simple and effective. However, the class really seems to have dropped away (except in looe!). The 12 is also great, but has an ideal weight below that of the 200. 

All in all the 200 is fairly quick, certainly in terms of average speed if not time around a course! It's quite robust and not as heavy as similar more 'training' orientated configurations. There are a few niggles to watch out for which I went through in my first reply. 


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 14 Oct 21 at 7:42am
The main reason to buy a 200 is the class racing.

My advice to the OP would be to read everyone's opinions back though the thread - albeit in my view excessively negative - and decide if the areas highlighted as poor will be a problem. 

Depending on the price it may well be worth a punt regardless as i've never known anyone struggle to sell a decent 200. If this one has hung around there might be a reason.

There is no perfect classs!


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 14 Oct 21 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Paramedic

The main reason to buy a 200 is the class racing.

My advice to the OP would be to read everyone's opinions back though the thread - albeit in my view excessively negative - and decide if the areas highlighted as poor will be a problem. 

Depending on the price it may well be worth a punt regardless as i've never known anyone struggle to sell a decent 200. If this one has hung around there might be a reason.

There is no perfect classs!


I reckon.

and it's a SMOD innit.

Well as close to a SMOD as makes no difference

Very appealing and does make life easier if all you want to do is sail or race a sailing dinghy.


Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 14 Oct 21 at 11:54am
As the OP what I am learning from this is:
1) Crew weight ideally around 130kg. That is a good fit for me and MrsMA42, or my son, (MA17??) and crew
2) RS200 may not be competitve on PY. Not an issue, its more for fun racing. I'm not competitive in the Radial either!
3) The hull is sturdy and will give long service
4) We are on the Thames Estuary (Leigh-on-Sea), so the course shapes can vary dramatically week by week depending on wind direction. So some weeks the RS200 will shine, and other it wont. I don't really care, its about fun racing.
Thanks all for your contributions, keep them coming



Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 14 Oct 21 at 2:27pm
Nice one Mark. Have fun. Thumbs Up


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 15 Oct 21 at 8:27am
Hi Mark
Have a great time, and keep out the Mud. 200 should fine to pull up the slips onto the racks.
Cheers
Gordon
lived at Leigh on sea until I was 18. and ex member of the club.


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: Sailor5467
Date Posted: 04 Nov 21 at 8:56am
For those who are interested, Allen has just posted a fitout guide for the RS200 -  http://www.allenbrothers.co.uk/2021/10/28/rs200-fitting-guide/" rel="nofollow - https://www.allenbrothers.co.uk/2021/10/28/rs200-fitting-guide/  



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