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Post Brexit: Towing in the EU

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy Yarns...
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13827
Printed Date: 04 Dec 21 at 5:34pm
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Topic: Post Brexit: Towing in the EU
Posted By: NickA
Subject: Post Brexit: Towing in the EU
Date Posted: 23 Aug 21 at 3:14pm
Not sure where to post this question; but as I'm after genuine accounts rather than opinions.....

Has anyone towed their boat across the EU since the UK left it?  What was the experience like?

Paperwork for the boat?  Legality of an old-school british road base with "hung on the transom" light board?

Before this madness occurred, trailing to the Javelin Euros in Germany, Holland, France was little different from trailing to Weymouth.  Now I'm thinking of next year's Euros in Holland and just wondering if it's viable.  If I can take my old road base, OK.  If I have to spend £1300 on a new combi, and £500 on an international export/import carnet .....probably not.


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Javelin 558



Replies:
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 27 Aug 21 at 10:34am
I am Currently asking the same questions to the RYA for the exact requirement. I expect there will be a fair bit of boilerplate risk aversion, but when I've distilled it down to the critical facts I'll report back.


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 27 Aug 21 at 1:09pm
Whichever EU numptie decided that new trailers should have a pole sticking out from the base each side, wobbling uncontrollably, so that the unnessarily extra wide trailer board can be tied to it, deserves to be shot. He/She clearly never towed a dinghy. Design-Fail.

So I do hope old style trailers are now fine.


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 27 Aug 21 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by Chris_H

Whichever EU numptie decided that new trailers should have a pole sticking out from the base each side, wobbling uncontrollably, so that the unnessarily extra wide trailer board can be tied to it, deserves to be shot. He/She clearly never towed a dinghy. Design-Fail.

So I do hope old style trailers are now fine.

You are not under any obligation to use the outriggers.


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 27 Aug 21 at 6:47pm
"You are not under any obligation to use the outriggers" ....in the UK.

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Javelin 558


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 27 Aug 21 at 10:12pm
Spot on . Before brexit it didnít matter as our old rules and laws were grandfathered into the rules. Now they are not. Stern Smile


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 30 Aug 21 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by NickA

"You are not under any obligation to use the outriggers" ....in the UK.

Can you show me anywhere where their use is mandated?


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 30 Aug 21 at 4:55pm
Tescos are out of saucisson sec, god knows why Wink Could you bring some back?


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 30 Aug 21 at 7:35pm
Speaking to Dutch classmates the trailer rules and very strictly applied in Holland.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 30 Aug 21 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by Chris_H

Whichever EU numptie decided that new trailers should have a pole sticking out from the base each side, wobbling uncontrollably, so that the unnessarily extra wide trailer board can be tied to it, deserves to be shot. He/She clearly never towed a dinghy. Design-Fail.

So I do hope old style trailers are now fine.


Old style trailers are still fine in the uk .

BUT  
If you are now trailing in the EU you have conform to the latest regulations. We are a third country and no longer in the EU club . 
If your new trailer has a integrated lighting board you must use it under uk law. But to be honest no police service will stop you of you donít , they are just happy you have a Lighting board of any kind LOL



Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 8:26am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by Chris_H

Whichever EU numptie decided that new trailers should have a pole sticking out from the base each side, wobbling uncontrollably, so that the unnessarily extra wide trailer board can be tied to it, deserves to be shot. He/She clearly never towed a dinghy. Design-Fail.

So I do hope old style trailers are now fine.


Old style trailers are still fine in the uk .

BUT  
If you are now trailing in the EU you have conform to the latest regulations. We are a third country and no longer in the EU club . 
If your new trailer has a integrated lighting board you must use it under uk law. But to be honest no police service will stop you of you donít , they are just happy you have a Lighting board of any kind LOL


If you have an accident where say a car drives into the back of your boat whilst you are trailing and you had a new trailer with outriggers and were NOT using them I suspect (ahem...know) that the insurer will refuse the claim.


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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 10:23am
I think that these rules have been around for a while, we have just chosen to ignore them.  I suspect that the UKCA rules for trailers are identical to CE, so the insurance issue may well crop up in the UK.  Ironically my experience of the light board arms is them falling off my trailer, much more dangerous than when these were not required 

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 10:41am
I imagine what the legislators had in mind was a full length trailer with the lighting permanently and solidly attached rather than the somewhat mickey mouse extension pieces that have been used to meet the letter of the regulation.


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 10:53am
Originally posted by JimC

I imagine what the legislators had in mind was a full length trailer with the lighting permanently and solidly attached rather than the somewhat mickey mouse extension pieces that have been used to meet the letter of the regulation.

Indeed. Because how on earth could this extension be called safe and an improvement on the old trailer?  - here is my Aero (now sold). The extensions bounce up and down like a yoyo, because the extensions are so long and unsupported at the back end. The front end sticks out and stabs you in the leg if you get too near. Completely dumb rule




Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 11:14am
Originally posted by JimC

I imagine what the legislators had in mind was a full length trailer with the lighting permanently and solidly attached rather than the somewhat mickey mouse extension pieces that have been used to meet the letter of the regulation.

I bought my last new trailer six months before the new regs became law . In the process of buying it I had some long conversations with the owner of Sovereign trailers about this subject.  He been part of an industry group that discussed the regs with our government.
I got the impression the regs were really aimed at the construction and farming industries as thatís where most of the accidents with trailers had happened and that the extension option was picked so that dinghy trailer manufacturers didnít have to go to the unnecessary expense of designing  full length trailers .


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 12:53pm
So we are all agreed, it seems, that EU standard trailers are sh*te.  But far from Brexit/Brexsh*t releasing us from ridiculous EU regulations it seems we are plunged into having to comply with them instead.

Wonder if I could modify my road-base into EU legality by attaching the lightboard to the base with a couple of stoutish garden canes ...... should be as good as Chris H's "official" one.

I believe there are other regs though, concerning how much the mast may overhang the trailer.

And there is still the matter of export / import paperwork.

I ask again ... has anyone tried yet?


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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 2:09pm
I believe the idea is you extend arms to length of boat, then support light bar from back of boat, not leave it bouncing up and down.

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Robert


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I believe the idea is you extend arms to length of boat, then support light bar from back of boat, not leave it bouncing up and down.

As you can see from my photo, this is not possible. I can attach rear quarter ropes up to the Aero (maybe), but that doesnt stop it bouncing up, because it needs reciprocal ropes tying it down. Believe me, I have used up many brain cells trying to resolve the issue....


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Chris_H

Originally posted by 423zero

I believe the idea is you extend arms to length of boat, then support light bar from back of boat, not leave it bouncing up and down.

As you can see from my photo, this is not possible. I can attach rear quarter ropes up to the Aero (maybe), but that doesnt stop it bouncing up, because it needs reciprocal ropes tying it down. Believe me, I have used up many brain cells trying to resolve the issue....

On mine with a full length mast I chuck a length of timber across the transom to strap the mast too and then have 2 ropes going downwards towards the supports which has a 2:1 purchase to lever the bars up. If you generate enough tension upwards it won't bounce while driving along.   


I've also seen some peoples boards dragged across the floor because the bars are too low to the ground, by bending them upwards it solves that issue  


Whats to stop you if you had a trailer with the new setup on it removing the plaque and claiming the trailer is pre-regs? Here in the UK obviously. I've still not seen any actual quotes on what the rules are in the EU, at the moment it all just sounds like speculation. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 6:25pm
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/contents
Governments take on the laws, even this is ambiguous. Light board can be upto a maximum of one metre inboard from end of trailer/ furthest point aft Smile


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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 6:58pm
I suppose one option would be to make a little padded cradle on the extension arms so you can lash it firmly to the stern of the boat.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 31 Aug 21 at 7:17pm
Wrap the whole thing in pipe lagging, wide strap all round helm, no need to be tight, whole thing, light board and extenders only a couple of kilos.

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Robert


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 8:29am
I appreciate that there are/were some very poor solutions to transom hung lighting boards too (although some good ones did/do exist), so appreciate that the rules say that it must be on the trailer and not the 'load'. Either way, the extension tubes are very far from ideal, but not sure what the answer could be. I live with what I have, as do others ...  ;-)


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by H2

If you have an accident where say a car drives into the back of your boat whilst you are trailing and you had a new trailer with outriggers and were NOT using them I suspect (ahem...know) that the insurer will refuse the claim.

Well I know of a case where someone did drive into there back of someones boat, they were't using outriggers and they did pay out.

So we both could be wrong. But there i say again for the umpteenth time that there is no requirement in law to use them.



Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

 

Well I know of a case where someone did drive into there back of someones boat, they were't using outriggers and they did pay out.

So we both could be wrong. But there i say again for the umpteenth time that there is no requirement in law to use them.


Really?

The law states that (to paraphrase) the lighting board shall be attached to the trailer, NOT the 'load'. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 6:43pm

<span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; : rgb255, 255, 255;">Actually it says A vehicle/trailer which carries a load or equipment which obscures any obligatory lamp, reflector or rear marking. the obligatory lamp, reflector or rear marking†</span><b style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; : rgb255, 255, 255;">shall be transferred to a position on the<span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; : rgb255, 255, 255;">†vehicle,†</span><b style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; : rgb255, 255, 255;">load<span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; : rgb255, 255, 255;">†or equipment where it is not obscured; [or fit an extra lamp etc].</span><br style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px; : rgb255, 255, 255;">
Flippin eck, its all gone berserk




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Robert


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 6:46pm
That refers to the vehicke, not the trailer, which has separate requirements


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 6:52pm
I am just pointing out the trailer design, that we are led to believe is a legal requirement and design, (Else why would the mainstream trailer companies have the extensions?) is not at all practical for dinghies.

Like my personal number plate - I could have squeezed the letters to have made the word - but I prefer to minimize my exposure to a police stop. Yes, I exceed the speed limit occassionally and do all sorts of silly driving mistakes, but for towing, do I need the hassle of a Police Stop when I am trying to get the boat to a club or home? Just being sensible.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 7:06pm
I always try to supply relevant accurate facts, especially when the law and safety is involved, where I have put vehicle it applies to trailers and motor vehicle, trailer is a vehicle after all, I will edit previous post to show this.


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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 7:26pm
Don't forget there may be more than one piece of legislation involved. Just because something isn't mentioned in one act doesn't mean it is not in a different one. After all we wouldn't want the law to be intelligible without consulting trained lawyers now would we...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Sep 21 at 7:56pm
Doesn't help with original question, (caravan club doesn't give a definitive answer, usually on top of this sort of thing) think best answer is to ask your breakdown service, AA, RAC etc, they have experts.
If you build your own trailer, boat or box, you are supposed to take it for a IVA test, trailers come under single use vehicles, if you go on you.gov it tells you what inspector will check and the top ten fails, you have to have permanent lights fitted to boat trailer without boat on, presumably this is where the lighting board regulations come in which states you may attach light board to load, ie, if with boat on trailer fixed lights are more than a metre from furthest aft section of load.


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Robert


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 02 Sep 21 at 10:30am

Originally posted by 423zero

If you build your own trailer, boat or box, you are supposed to take it for a IVA test, trailers come under single use vehicles, if you go on you.gov it tells you what inspector will check and the top ten fails, you have to have permanent lights fitted to boat trailer without boat on, presumably this is where the lighting board regulations come in which states you may attach light board to load, ie, if with boat on trailer fixed lights are more than a metre from furthest aft section of load.

Bizarrely Iím pretty sure thats wrong too, its only trailers offer for sale to the public.
And manufacturer's can't just send an example, or three examples, or submit to random inspections. Every trailer they make has to be certified. But I can make one in my garage for †my use.......


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 02 Sep 21 at 10:47am
Err no you are wrong . Manufacturers have to have type approval. 

If you build a trailer in your garage for your own use it HAS to have IVA test before you can use it on the road.

A simple google search proves this from multiple sources . 



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